Members bookumdano4 Posted August 3, 2017 Members Share Posted August 3, 2017 Because once you buy your Epiphone (think kids/families buying for kids) or your inexpensive Gibson (think kids/families/guys who want SOME sort of entry path into an actual Gibson name new), you/they will eventually want (on their way to being sidetracked to a strat on the way) to buy the $5000 stuff. Or $3000 stuff. In the Gibson family. As I mentioned, is what I limit myself to when I'm in the Gibson mood. They haven't made any sub $500 guitars yet that catch my eye... but I did used to buy the Epi line for my children when they were growing up. My kids know they'll inherit my Gibsons... which is the only reason so far that Gibson won't (yet) get my kids' money. Yet. Epiphone is such a HUGE name-recognized profit generator for Gibson. As it was in 1965 when I received my first Casino. Epiphone even dwarfed our Gibson sales in most of the early 70s when Epis weren't really clone stuff (I was a dealer by then). Sort of like......why does Aldi bother owning Trader Joes....... in reverse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BG76 Posted August 4, 2017 Members Share Posted August 4, 2017 Well, if you look at a company like Gibson their better guitars (Custom Shop Historic) tend to have one pice bodies, are made of lighter woods and a lot (not all) of the work is done by hand. Same thing when you're dealing with a company like Martin's real line (18 and up). If the BOM is $500 figure in US labor costs, taxes, overhead and the fact that this guitar sells to the store for a lot less than $2400 and you've answered your own question - and skilled labor isn't cheap. I don't particularly care for PRS guitars but I have a Singlecut and I've played the Korean version. Both are nice guitars but to say the only difference is the setup is really, really misleading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Axisplayer Posted August 4, 2017 Members Share Posted August 4, 2017 I have found that my best, easiest option for a custom guitar is to start with the cheapest satisfactory guitar I can find, and then change the things I don't like, until it is the custom guitar I want. Labor is THE big expense so I do it myself because I have more time than money. I have a 1992 Les Paul Classic (about $2000) and a 2017 Les Paul Tribute T (around $1000.) I actually prefer the Tribute except for the satin finish (different thread.) I want to like the Classic so I have been working on it. I changed out the bridge and tailpiece. Someone who originally had it swapped the Gibson PUPS out for Seymour Duncan 59N and a Pearly Gates bridge. They sound OK, but a little bright. I also didn't like the way they look, so I bought some nickle PUP covers and installed them. It took some of the edge off and I like the sound better. The older plastic parts had seen better days so I put on a new pickguard, pickup selector switch tip, and the poker chip. I added Schaller strap locks and replaced the old beat up ones. I didn't like the bell cover that said Classic because it was cracked so I got a plain one. I own a Peterson 490ST so I do my own intonation and setups. None of this is rocket science. If I paid someone to make those changes, it would have been expensive. I bought actual Gibson parts and still fixed all the things I didn't like for under a $100. I did the setup I like, not what the factory liked. Why would someone choose to pay a mfg to make a custom guitar when most things can be done by the owner much cheaper. Mass produced guitar plus personal effort is the cheapest custom guitar available. If you can't do the work, learn to. If you don't want to do it yourself, then don't complain about custom prices. At the end of the day, I like the Classic a lot more than I did. I also still prefer the Tribute. It feels exactly right to me. It IS my custom guitar because I wouldn't change anything but the finish, and the day will come that I will take out my trusty air brush and fix that when it needs it. Sometimes assembly line stuff is just dandy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EmgEsp Posted August 4, 2017 Author Members Share Posted August 4, 2017 I doubt there is more work done by hand with one of those $5,000 Gibsons over say a standard series Les Paul that sells for around $2500. They simply charge a crazy premium for unique features. A proper setup can really minimize any noticeable functioning differences between a well made import vs a Made in USA guitar. At the end of the day both PRS guitars go through CNC machines. The Made in USA is probably using higher grade woods, but that matters very little when it comes to electric guitars. It might look nicer, but any affect it will have on tone will be so small its not worth even mentioning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EmgEsp Posted August 4, 2017 Author Members Share Posted August 4, 2017 Not really any guitar manufacturers mass producing single bridge humbucker and 1 volume style guitars anymore, so that is why custom is my only option. Basically I want a neck through, 24 fret version of my Charvel M1 with an Original Floyd Rose and in White finish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1001gear Posted August 4, 2017 Members Share Posted August 4, 2017 Somebody bring up tone matched woods and specially tone carved stock and then maybe you got a point. Oh wait those are violins... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted August 4, 2017 Members Share Posted August 4, 2017 As you probably know, you are in luck with the finish. For some reason Gibson used real nitro on the Tribute and that is the one finish that is reasonable for a do it yourselfer to overspray and buff. I'm sure you've seen this great thread about "adding" PRS style binding and a few more coats of lacquer - I think the guitar went from bland to stunning http://www.harmonycentral.com/forum/forum/guitar/acapella-41/31994994-2017-tribute-t-ngd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted August 4, 2017 Members Share Posted August 4, 2017 Here is an absolute bit of ironic coincidence. I was in an auto dealership this morning and my salesman is an old friend (and musician). As we were signing the papers he introduced me to their financial manager and commented that he was also a player. I asked what and he said he was a bassist, I asked what kind and he said he plays a 5 string electric. I asked him what kind again and he said that he had customized Carvin. I told him that I had heard there were some changes at Carvin and asked what he knew. He told me that the son of the Carvin factory had broken the guitar line off from the amps under the new name Kiesel. He said that they were concentrating on more "up market" instruments than in the past. He said that when he had bought his bass he was pretty impressed with price of around $1400 but said "that is because they have no distributor or dealer network, they can absorb all those costs and not have to pass them to the buyer" ( we didn't discuss the irony that I was sitting in an auto dealership; buying a car that was in inventory from a salesman who would make a commission off of the sale....) He said that when his bass arrived it had some minor issues that if he had bought it in a store he would have asked them to deal with. He didn't feel it was worth the money or hassle of sending it back. However, it did develop a noisy pot and he decided to return it under warranty. He told me that they kept the instrument for a very long time, I think he said several months or more, returned it and said they couldn't find anything wrong but it played better than it did before - obviously they had tweaked some things as they were doing the diagnostic work. He also said the pot noise was gone. Short story, he was very impressed with Carvin, felt that the new company would be OK. He said it was a complete hassle ordering and getting the maintenance work done but he was satisfied with the results. He said that his bass was gone so long he had to buy another one to make gigs, but then shrugged and said "its good to have a second guitar". So bottom line, I have known two people who have Carvin instruments. Both have had trouble with them that the factory resolved. Both were satisfied that they were "good deals" and both would do it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EmgEsp Posted August 4, 2017 Author Members Share Posted August 4, 2017 Judging from my friends Kiesel the quality is definitely impressive, especially for the price. Can't wait to order mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members hellion_213 Posted August 4, 2017 Members Share Posted August 4, 2017 Single volume, single bucker - unless you're set on absolutely new, BC Rich re-released the Gunslinger a couple of years ago. I'm a big Rich fanboy myself. Yamaha and Gibson both have a new model, though the Gibson has a tone as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members hellion_213 Posted August 4, 2017 Members Share Posted August 4, 2017 That one looks cool. I dig Stevie Ts on YouTube, he's a big Kiesel fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members badpenguin Posted August 5, 2017 Members Share Posted August 5, 2017 I have heard quite the opposite on another forum, about the lack of QC at the "new" Kiesel. Paint and finish issues, binding problems, and a bad set up or two out of the box. I have HEARD this, but haven't seen any first hand. The Carvins I have seen and owned, wonderful instruments, BUT very user specific. Some LOVE them to death, others, hate them. I have a 79 something 150, all maple Paul copy, and owned a Holdsworth H2, and while I love the 150, miss the H2 daily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EmgEsp Posted August 5, 2017 Author Members Share Posted August 5, 2017 No guitar manufacturer is perfect, and thankfully Kiesel gives you like a 10 day return policy if for whatever reason you don't like it. Again, I've seen and played one first hand, so I'm pretty confident purchasing from them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Etienne Rambert Posted August 5, 2017 Members Share Posted August 5, 2017 FWIW, 2017 Les Paul Faded T's are marked down to $719 - reduced $80 from what I paid last week. This is for a US-made CNC'd and PLEK'd instrument. That is crazy. The fretwork and action on mine were great - right out of the box. I had a Gibson inspection card and a Sweetwater 55 point cert. in my case candy. This is what I mean by downward price pressure in the electric guitar market. https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/LPF17WCNH I guess 2018 models are coming out soon. (Attached: Snapshot of mine at Gibson Nashville final inspection station.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EmgEsp Posted August 5, 2017 Author Members Share Posted August 5, 2017 I hear great things about Sweetwater. If I wasn't in the market for a custom guitar I probably would have bought one of those cool Charvel Pro Mods from them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members hellion_213 Posted August 5, 2017 Members Share Posted August 5, 2017 Penguin - that's exactly what I was driving at on the 2nd page. And it's not just manufacturers who sell direct, but they seem to have the most issues, according to reviews, well, those and a few import lines of major manufacturers. When you cut a step, you become completely dependent on the QC from the step prior - Kiesel cuts retailers and distributors, so once a Guitar is setup from the factory, it gets boxed and shipped. Humidity/temp fluctuations plus transit, and who knows how the setup is when it arrives in the hands of the end user, as there's no retailer waiting on the receiving end to do a follow up QC check. Is that worth a few hundred in savings? To some, maybe not to others. It boils down to what are you willing to accept as OK? Bad intonation? Cold solder joints that may have broken in transit? Bad switch that could have been replaced at the retailer's? Sticky tuning machine? I'm not saying which is right, that's up to the individual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bluesmann Posted August 9, 2017 Members Share Posted August 9, 2017 Carvin? your kidding right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EmgEsp Posted August 9, 2017 Author Members Share Posted August 9, 2017 Its Kiesel now and why do say that with such a negative tone? They make high quality guitars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bluesmann Posted August 9, 2017 Members Share Posted August 9, 2017 Because they ripped me for over 800 bucks. It had terrible workmanship / fretwork etc. I sent it back 3 times. The third time I got it back I literality threw it in the trash. The return option was over.. Piece of crap company! It was a dead guitar with harsh pickups too. Custom bolt guitar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EmgEsp Posted August 9, 2017 Author Members Share Posted August 9, 2017 Sucks you had a bad experience, but they have overwhelmingly positive reviews across forums and youtube. I can't speak for old Carvin quality, but it seems the new Kiesel stuff is pretty high quality. I played my friends and was very impressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bluesmann Posted August 9, 2017 Members Share Posted August 9, 2017 1, you don't know who's putting those reviews out. 2. Carvin did nothing but change the name because they had too. You'd better beware imo. Go buy something you can play first. barter on the price, walk a few time, do a road trip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EmgEsp Posted August 9, 2017 Author Members Share Posted August 9, 2017 Unfortunately I have specific customizations I want done and I don't want to spend a fortune in the process. Besides the Kiesel, those new Charvel Pro Mod So-Cal models look fantastic and if I could find a drop in replacement pickguard that is single hum 1 volume setup I'd go down that route. http://www.charvel.com/guitars/pro-mod/pro-mod-so-cal-style-1-hh-fr-maple-fingerboard-snow-white/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bluesmann Posted August 9, 2017 Members Share Posted August 9, 2017 EMG/ESP in the end you most of the time get what you pay for. You'd be smart to wait and buy a custom shop guitar. Not a Carvin make believe dream guitar. you're not getting you're money's worth there., that's a con job. Go look at some Gibson CS guitars and don't pay attention to internet prices or sticker shock, their jacked up at least 13 /1400 dollars from what you can walk with one. 3000 to 3100.00 and you get a stable instrument. Gibson, Shur, Tom Anderson are just a few of some high quality workmanship. You may be supprised with Godin and their performance series. When I was a broke as like you (kidding) 550.00 got me a exit 22. Its been one of the best playing / sounding guitars I've ever owned. and their consistent. 2 .bought 2 more just to have . Mark my words Ding ding ding! you buy a carvin, you'll be sorry. They don't give a F about you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EmgEsp Posted August 9, 2017 Author Members Share Posted August 9, 2017 Gibson doesn't make the kind of guitars I'm currently interested in. I have a Gibson V, and while its a nice axe I barely play it. I prefer my Superstrats by far. I value light guitars, 25.5" scale length, thin necks and finished maple fingerboards since you don't have to worry about treating them. Paying $3,000+ for an electric guitar is ridiculous and unnecessary. I don't care what magic people believe in, a $3,000 guitar doesn't objectively always sound and play better than a $1500 guitar, or even some of these sweet $800 - $900 Mexican imports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bluesmann Posted August 9, 2017 Members Share Posted August 9, 2017 But they hold their value EMG. you buy a Carvin and you'll lose 50% rate off the bat. Wisdom speaks. There is a big difference in quality, feel and emotion that can be had. PRS is another well built instrument and they have a new series in the 1500.00 range, I'd still go custom see above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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