Why should a mass produced guitar cost $2000+

[hellion_213]

Having no experience with Kiesel, I can't attest to anything quality wise, I do have a decent amount with Carvin, though, and I wasn't overly impressed. Not disappointed, just felt the quality was no better than a MIM Fender, or MIK Rich, but had a premium attached. Probably because they claim Custom or Semi-custom, when realistically, it's more Made To Order. Here's a template, fill in the blanks, we'll build it and ship it to you. Puts me in mind of Big Mac, no pickle, add bacon. Same thing. Nothing actually customized, just Made To Order. Nothing wrong with that, except the way it's marketed.

[Freeman Keller]

"I have a local luthier with a Plek machine, so I'm good.

 

Very few guitars come out of the shop perfect, so I always expect that I'll need to get it professionally setup. "

 

Yes a few small shops and luthiers do have Plek machines now, the typical costs that I have seen for Plek'ing your guitar ranges from $200 to 250 or so. That includes a basic setup. Pro setups run in the $70 range, manual fret leveling and dressing can run around $120. I saw one price to refret a guitar and Plek it as $500.

 

My local mom and pop music store will include a basic setup (relief, action, intonation, new strings to your spec) with any new guitar they sell. If it needs fret work they will call on me, usually that gets included in the price.

 

The other option, of course, is to just send it back. I mentioned before that a friend bought a Carvin acoustic (which I don't think the sell any more) and had to return it twice to get one that was playable, Carvin took it back with no questions but he had to pay the shipping. Fwiw, the problem was bad frets and setup.

[Grant Harding]

By the time you buy a Carvin, upgrade the pickups, get the frets Plek'd, and whatever else they've compromised on you're in entry level Anderson territory price wise, but will still be miles away from the amazing quality, feel and sound.

 

Do you chase people in Lexus cars to let them know how amazing your Hyundai is for way less money and that they're stupid?

 

You should be happy that you don't need to spend up large to get your sound.

[Mikeo]

there is a big difference in Real custom shop guitars. their stable and hold their value. cry once and be done with it. Carvin is a joke! Suhr, Tom Anderson, PRS, Gibson custom:staticphil: Carvin or now kessel? pos! There are some people that can't hear or feel the difference. If that's you than it really doesn't matter. Buy a carvin.

 

Nice PRS

 

Here's mine.

 

It's an older Custom 22.

 

I wasn't gonna buy a PRS without a 10 top and birds. I tried a dozen of em, including a the McCarty's and the CU22 was my fav.

 

I forget how much it was, but it wasn't inexpensive back in the day.

 

 

 

[EmgEsp]

The Made in Mexico Fenders/Charvels I've tried were fantastic playing instruments, so that isn't really a bad comparison.

 

With a Kiesel you are paying a premium for the ability to make customizations that you can't do with those mass produced imports. They might not make 100% custom designs, but they offer a decent amount of base guitar models that you can work from and customize to your personal tastes. Try finding a Gibson Les Paul with a Pale Moon Ebony Fingerboard and a Floyd Rose bridge.

[EmgEsp]

Yes my local shop charges around $250 with a full setup. Gonna get one of my current guitars Plek'd soon.

 

Here's a video of the shop in question.

 

 

[Grant Harding]

Bolt-on necks sound better than neck-through. People used to think the opposite, but Anderson (for one) have proven this wrong over the years. Again, you need to play one to really get it.

 

You're learning heaps in this thread.

[EmgEsp]

I would only get it plek'd if there were some noticeable issues with extreme buzz with the kind of action I desire. Also, there is no guarantee I would replace the pickups. They sounded pretty good with the small amount of time I got to play my friend's Vader.

 

The price of the Kiesel I want is $1500. Even with a pickup switch (Duncan JB) or getting it Plek'd ($250) its still under $2000 for a guitar that has been customized to my taste.

[Grant Harding]

Sweet! Do you ever regret spending the extra money?

[steve_man]

because people keep paying that price... I remember back in the late 80's when they had Gibson Les Pauls on the wall for less than $1000 (no, not a studio), and they couldn't get rid of them... everyone wanted Super Strats. Now, the LP is the "cool" guitar to have, and Gibson continues to raise prices. I have never paid over $1100 for a guitar... Even though I use it as part of my living, I just can't justify it. Not when my guitars sound and play great, at a lower price. Yes, I do think MIA Fenders are better than MIM Fenders, but not just because of the headstock. The differences IMO, are in the quality of the neck/fretwork, electronics, and the bridge. Worth the price, IMO. However, I love my Epiphone guitars, as well. Hard to look at an expensive Gibson with my Epis hanging around.

[EmgEsp]

I looked at Anderson guitars that some of you have recommended. They look like quality instruments, but they don't offer as many options as Kiesel or at least not the options I'm specifically looking for. I could be wrong, but all the Andersons Strat shaped guitars seem to be bolt-on only and their thinnest neck option isn't quite as thin as I'd like. Also, a small nitpick, but I'm not a fan of their headstock design. If I'm gonna spend good money I want a guitar that both plays and looks appealing, at least to my eyes.

[hellion_213]

I agree, nothing wrong with MIM Fenders, they do sound good, and I wouldn't sell my MiK Riches for anything, But, and this is a big difference, we Allow a certain amount of lee-way with those guitars, or most people do anyway. Poor factory pickups? Ahhh, I'll replace those. Terrible factory tuning machines? Meh..I can get Gotoh lockers on order, not a huge thing. One fret a little off, trem claw screwed in a little too steep, peeking through the other side, no big deal, the pickguard covers it, right? Tone pot was overheated when soldered at the factory, scratches just a little, maybe even a touch noisy on adjustments. One of the Others Won't have any of that. I've played the above 2K PRSs, and Gibbys, the gold top Strats. There's nothing to compromise on, and the margin of error is shrunk to almost nil. Personally, I'm good spending less, but I don't expect my import to be on par with (insert high end here) I expect it to perform well, for what I'm doing. Rehearsals and playing bars and events. Not exactly where I would Want to take a Gibby custom, etc. (Actually, if I spent more time in the studio, and the wife wouldn't divorce me, the Gibson Axxess Les Paul with Floyd Rose is super sexy. Pricey though)

[steve_man]

If you're wanting a good guitar, I'd steer clear of a Carvin/Kiesel. Their "custom shop" really isn't... as they will not let you put in other brands of pickups, other brands of pots, bridges, etc. They look nice, but in my experience, their parts are just not up to snuff. That, and their pickups really don't sound that great, either. I've owned several Carvins, and they have all left to new homes for various reasons. But I never could get along with the bolt + that I had of theirs... at ALL.

[EmgEsp]

Get that MIM Fender/Charvel Plek'd and you probably got a guitar that plays even better than those MIA Fenders. The higher priced MIM Fender's and Charvels come with solid hardware, so that shouldn't be an issue.

[bluesmann]

Carvin / Keisel has always gone after the young and inexperienced, placing ads for their free catalogs in the back of teen magazines, learn to play, free tabs guitar magazines etc. Trying to market their substandard products.

 

Another player I know bought one of their Redeye bass amps to use in church, that claimed to have all this power / headroom. like always carvin gear didn't live up to their claims and was sent back and frowned on .

Others buying their PA power amps all junk in the hands of a professional musician. Better than radio shack but not by much. Many a guitar that was impossible to get a decent setup on. Beginning guitarist deserve better. Trying to learn on a substandard instrument can make one think its to difficult to learn to play.

 

I've never seen a guitar as bad as the custom bolt they sent me. Mahogany body, jumbo frets not one of their standard models. over 800.00 then add the case. Never have I played a guitar this dead. Acoustically it had no volume. You couldn't feel the notes played vibrating through the guitar period dead! the neck and frets would not stay put. 3 times it went back and got it back in the same condition. I literally trashed the guitar,

 

for now the time had expired or so I was told. blatant rippoff. My 400.00 Epiphone ES335 pro blew it away. Carvin Custom shop? that's a crock of sheet! just like the guys that work on commission that answer the phones. I watched the first part of the factory tour and you could tell he was trying to copy the Paul Reed Smith rap. The kind of quality carvin puts out PRS cuts up.

 

The PRS shop is about a hour away from me near the bay bridge. So there's a lot of PRS guitars around this area. From custom shop to their most inexpensive model, I could spend 15 to 20 minutes with the guitar and go do a gig with no issues. That's a good company for example, they care and it shows. Carvin talks a line of sheet and blows

 

I played one of their 1 12 nomad amps, no lie! turn on the am radio, that's the tone of the amp, no warmth period. There you go same sheety carvin experience. Why anyone would want to entertain the ideal of buying anything Carvin is beyond me.

[bluesmann]

Carvin / Keisel has always gone after the young and inexperienced, placing ads for their free catalogs in the back of teen magazines, learn to play, free tabs guitar magazines etc. Trying to market their substandard products.

 

Another player I know bought one of their Redeye bass amps to use in church, that claimed to have all this power / headroom. like always carvin gear didn't live up to their claims and was sent back and frowned on .

Others buying their PA power amps all junk in the hands of a professional musician. Better than radio shack but not by much. Many a guitar that was impossible to get a decent setup on. Beginning guitarist deserve better. Trying to learn on a substandard instrument can make one think its to difficult to learn to play.

 

I've never seen a guitar as bad as the custom bolt they sent me. Mahogany body, jumbo frets not one of their standard models. over 800.00 then add the case. Never have I played a guitar this dead. Acoustically it had no volume. You couldn't feel the notes played vibrating through the guitar period dead! the neck and frets would not stay put. 3 times it went back and got it back in the same condition. I literally trashed the guitar,

 

for now the time had expired or so I was told. blatant rippoff. My 400.00 Epiphone ES335 pro blew it away. Carvin Custom shop? that's a crock of sheet! just like the guys that work on commission that answer the phones. I watched the first part of the factory tour and you could tell he was trying to copy the Paul Reed Smith rap. The kind of quality carvin puts out PRS cuts up.

 

The PRS shop is about a hour away from me near the bay bridge. So there's a lot of PRS guitars around this area. From custom shop to their most inexpensive model, I could spend 15 to 20 minutes with the guitar and go do a gig with no issues. That's a good company for example, they care and it shows. Carvin talks a line of sheet and blows

 

I played one of their 1 12 nomad amps, no lie! turn on the am radio, that's the tone of the amp, no warmth period. There you go same sheety carvin experience. Why anyone would want to entertain the ideal of buying anything Carvin is beyond me.

[bluesmann]

That's a beautiful example man! I already know how she plays.

[Grant Harding]

Browsing their website is nothing like playing one.

 

Tom Anderson wrote a very good article about why a proper bolt-on is the best possible tonal option. It allows for a strong, rigid neck to be paired (by a master) to a light, resonant body. Many shredders still pass on the old "neck through has more sustain" but it's simply not true.

 

They aren't designed as metal guitars, so they're never going to be a good fit, tonally or style. Plus the extra goodness is wasted when covered in gain, so basswood and active pickups are the cheaper and more appropriate sound.

[Mikeo]

I never regret a any gear purchase. There have been a few guitars that I wasn't happy about and sold, all the Gibson, Fenders, Rickenbackers, PRS, Gretsch's, and Martin's I have kept. Some of the stuff I bought decades ago has really gone up in value. I look for guitars that deliver the tones I want, so for me it's the right tools for the job. I don't seek out collectors pieces, that's not what I look for.

 

The way I see it, if you gonna be a mechanic, get the best tools you can, if you want to be a musician do the same.

 

I have own 3 Carvin amps, one was X60 combo I bought used for 100 bucks. The thing was mint too. I also had there Vintage 33 for a while and the absolute worse amp I ever owned was there R600 bass amp and 4x10 cab.. That got replaced with an Ashadown ABM 500 combo, which has been with me for close to 20 years.

 

I have never owned one of Carvin's guitars, but have played them used in shops. They are a bargain in the used market.

 

The most expensive instrument I own is a Gibson F5G mandolin. After I bought Gibson increased there prices, by 1500 bucks. It's damn nice and one of there more plain models too.

 

When I was a teen, I bought my SG Standard, for like 450 and a Les Paul for 5500 bucks. Very expensive at the time. 30-40 years later, I still have them and have no regrets.

My amps have not increased in price like the guitars. I sold a bunch of Mesa amps that just got to heavy and bulky to haul. I have an original JMC 800 2x12 combo that has gone up in value quite a bit. I don't play it often any more.

 

An instrument will last you a lifetime, maybe. Frets wear, saddles and nuts on acoustics. The local luthier knows me well. Maybe next year I'll be looking for something else.

[EmgEsp]

So you think metal bands lack tone because they use a lot of gain? There are plenty of Metal bands with great tone. Opeth for one.

[EmgEsp]

Kiesel will install other pickups for you, you just have to send them in.

[EmgEsp]

Look, you weren't happy with your guitar, I get it, but to make the assumption that every other guitar they make is substandard just makes you look bitter as hell. There have been Gibsons with shoddy quality as well, yet you don't attack them, and they charge a hell of a lot more for their guitars than Kiesel does.

 

So how do you explain my friends fantastic Kiesel that I got to play? Was he just very lucky to get a well made guitar from them? Is the hundreds of people throughout the internet saying positive things about their guitars just lucky as well? Please tell me why I should take your advice over hundreds of happy customers?

[EmgEsp]

Where is this proof? And I'm not interested in neck-thru simply for tonal differences, but ease of play ability when playing on the higher frets.

[bluesmann]

I'm not making assumptions its based on many experiences, yours is based on 1 . let me tell you where you can stick your one experience with Carvin. on second thought, at this point you probably deserve one. After all the quality choices there are out there you pick the turd. you deserve it my friend. Go get your experience. Must be the fluoride in the water.

[bluesmann]

Again you open your mouth and show more lack of experience / ignorance. ignorance can be cured stupidly is permanent . you're leaning on the later