Why should a mass produced guitar cost $2000+

[EmgEsp]

No offense, but you kinda keep changing the subject. I'm not attacking your guitars or how much you charge for them. You make handmade guitars and like I said those justify a premium. I was talking about mass produced guitars with standard features that sell for over $2K. That is a totally different situation. I make the comparison with Kiesel because its a way to prove that a company can build a high quality semi custom instrument in the USA at a reasonable price. I get it that companies can only charge what people are willing to spend, but it just looks like those big companies are taking advantage of the general consumers ignorance. I'm not going to let some company BS me into spending $3,000 on a guitar that doesn't even offer custom options.

 

I do appreciate quality and would be willing to spend decent money on an instrument if its truly justified. My next guitar will be a Kiesel build because I can actually buy a guitar spec'd out to my specifications and not have to spend a fortune in the process. Like I said before once you get to a certain price bracket you fall into diminishing returns. I'm not a sucker.

 

P.S. I don't see the point in trying to belittle my guitars like they are hunks of junk simply because you purchase pickups that cost around the same amount of money. Just makes you look kinda snobbish to be honest. All three of my Japanese imports are high quality instruments, especially for the prices I paid for them. I actually prefer them over my Made in USA Gibson V which is also a great instrument in its own right. They have much more comfortable necks than the Gibson and hence play better for me.

[EmgEsp]

I think more companies should sell direct to avoid dealers. IMHO, half the blame for these crazy prices is because dealers need their cut of the profits too. Leave the middle man out and sell direct. A 10 day trial period should solve the issue of needing to try an instrument before fully committing on the purchase.

[Verne Andru]

Yes and no - while Fender et al. use a channel-based sales model, Carvin sells direct to customers. By not having to pay distributors and resellers Carvin pockets 100% of the selling price whereas the others only get between 24 and 30%. Fender owns their own distributing company, but they still have to give up a slice to resellers.

 

There are advantages to selling through resellers such as increased product and brand exposure, plus you have others motivated to sell your product. Carvin sells off their website which requires prospective customers know about them and specifically seek them out which requires brand awareness, etc.

 

In PRS early days, the story goes, Paul was super keen on getting big name endorsers and focused his sights on Santana. In early interviews Carlos was something like 'this guy keeps coming at me trying to make me take his guitars.' It almost comes across that Smith forced himself on Santana until Carlos finally played a model he liked. Smith then went off and did a super big PR push touting Santana as an endorser. The PRS tent at NAMM is always heavily focused on celebrity endorsers, so it's a deep part of that culture.

 

Not so much with Carvin.

 

I've been marketing a large part of my life and can say from experience that people are programmable.

[Verne Andru]

Hate to burst bubbles, but the era of cheap gear is behind us. Current moves to bring manufacturing to the US from China will translate into something like a 4 to 5 times price increase across the board. And that's just the start of hyper-inflation woes yet to come.

 

I remember as a kid drooling over the Silvertone Amp-in-Case set in the annual Sears Christmas Catalog but thinking that I'd never be able to afford it. The $99 price of the 2 pickup model was like a million dollars in 1963 money.

 

Now I think of how many guitars have sold for around $100 over the past decade or so and wonder. Inflation has seriously devalued currencies since the early 1960's yet I find it most odd that the price of guitars has stayed relatively the same.

 

The first decade of the 21st century will go down much like the roaring '20's as a period of 'easy money' that's since come to an end. The '30's are in the mail.

[EmgEsp]

Don't see why they would have to move facilities to USA. Mexico seems like the best option.

[Verne Andru]

'Balancing trade' means reversing a few decades of globalization (with China, Mexico, Canada, India, etc.) before the books even begin to look like they'll balance. If it continues going forward it is going to hurt real bad for everybody.

[Etienne Rambert]

Go check out Gibson's website. Look at all the USA series guitars with list prices under $1K--even under $500. I count at least seven models.

[hellion_213]

No offense intended, but I think you've watched a lot of YouTube with the Kiesel love, lol. They do look good, sound good on the videos. Have you checked out Diamond Guitars? Pretty much the same, high end pickups, killer looks, low(er) price?

[EmgEsp]

Its definitely a nice start, but man they are super stripped down.

[Verne Andru]

I think it was only a year or so ago Gibson created waves when they announced they were discontinuing selling low-end Gibsons. Everything was to be cork-sniffing stuff. Clearly the market dictated a different reality and they changed focus to compete with the waves of low-end offerings coming from off-shore. Don't know if those are lost-leaders or they're making money but I do know those models can be easily discontinued if circumstances required.

 

Gibson is quite well situated to survive an implosion but Epiphone will suffer. Since Epi sells more instruments than any other maker, that's going to hurt buyers in the pocket-book. Fender is too diversified and is already teetering, so if they do come out alive, they'll look much different from what they have been. PRS stands to get routed as will the other middle-tiers that have outsourced their manufacturing.

 

Companies like Rickenbacker and Carvin should be able to weather the storm fairly well as they don't have serious business interests to re-align with the current political winds.

[hellion_213]

Chapman guitars sells direct, well to retailers, there's no middle distribution. Cuts cost. They look/sound killer online as well. Marketing AFAIK is primarily YouTube viewer based.

[Grant Harding]

I think you're misunderstanding business. You talk about the cost of manufacture as if it's related to the selling price. Like a manufacturer should carefully work out their cost of production and then add a small margin. It's not like that.

 

They base their selling price on how much they think they can sell for. When they cut costs they do it to increase profit margins, not to reduce the price.

[Mikeo]

I like guitars.

 

Actually, I'd like to think that the folks working at the USA Fender plant, Gibson or other musical instrument manufacturing plants in the USA , take there pay checks and my houses, buy other stuff in the community and send there kids to school.

 

I'm and economy simulator I think.

 

 

I have many USA made guitars, and 3 guitars made in some fancy plant in Japan. I have stuff that has been with me for close to 40 years. However 2 Taylor GS mini's were made in Mexico.

 

 

My fav Gibson is the ES 335, but the ES 275 is quiet sweet, not what I would call inexpensive.

 

 

 

 

[t_e_l_e]

OP have a look e.g. at warmoth

http://www.warmoth.com/

 

you can click together your custom body and neck, choose a solist and neck with head stock you like, use the options you like or take the cheapest, you will need a finish for it at least for the neck.

 

you will get greatest top quality there, if you select the cheapest wood options and finishes and frets, body + neck without any hardware will cost ~$800

add pick up's of your choice, tremolo, tuners pots, knobs, caps jacks and rest of the parts you need for a full guitar add another $600 or more depending your choices....

 

...and then you need to assemble it yourself

depending on wood, finish choices and hardware you add, it gets easily over $2000 (w/o assembly), yeah you could buy the hardware somewhere cheaper, but it also needs shipping and a lot of effort to source them from several cheapest spots...

 

 

[EmgEsp]

Well that is quite the mark up. Building guitars that most likely cost $800 tops to manufacture per unit for $3000+.

[Freeman Keller]

I had never heard of Kiesel guitars so I did a quick search. Looks like they are the new incarnation of Carvin. Carvin, of course, when they were in business had no brick and mortar stores or any distributors. You bought directly from them on line or mail order. They would give you a complete refund if you didn't like the guitar and returned it within 30 days,. A buddy bought one of their acoustics, it took two times returning it to get one he was satisfied with but after that he was quite happy. I wonder if Kiesel is honoring Carvin's warranties, whatever they were.

 

Obviously when you cut out the complete distribution chain and all their mark ups you save a heck of a lot of money. I would frankly never buy a guitar I hadn't played but lots of people do.

 

Looking forward to seeing Emg's when he gets it

[EmgEsp]

I can't assemble a guitar kit myself, sp I'd have to pay someone to do that. If Warmoth ever offered a prebuilt option that would be fantastic, but for some reason they are not interested in doing that. I wonder why they still won't offer that service.

[Freeman Keller]

I'm simply telling you that there are very few true custom guitars for $2000. Even your beloved Kiesels seem to run from a low of 16-1800 to 2800 or so. I'm also going to bet that when you start adding custom features each will come with a price. As I pointed out in another posting, if Kiesel is following Carvin's example they have completely eliminated the distribution and retail outlet, as others have pointed out that is roughly 50 percent of the mark up on any other brand.

 

I was trying to show you what people ask me for when they order a custom guitar.

 

And I'm not belittling your guitars. Obviously you are happy with them, that is the important thing. In fact I contend that we are in a true golden era of good quality inexpensive guitars - I think that is wonderful, particularly with the popular press decrying the "death of the electric guitar"

 

Lastly I really don't think you understand US business and marketing - costs, markups, all of the things that makes a product cost what it does. I was an engineer in manufacturing for 40 years - I understand why things cost what they do. I'm retired now and build a few guitars as a hobby, but I still understand my costs and expenses. Buy your Kiesel, bring it back here and show off. Post a picture and a clip. I

[Grant Harding]

Things are worth what people will pay. If they stop selling then they'll lower the price.

 

The reality is that the same people own the lower end and upper end. They need to make sure that the perceived chasm between the two is as big as possible, so they build a bunch of compromises into the lower end (not just hardware, but wood as well).

[Freeman Keller]

Unfortunately Warmoth doesn't work that way - they do all the hard part building the parts, you, the end user gets to assemble them into your own CUSTOM partscaster. OK, lets say you buy t_e_l_e's neck and body and hardware (remember all this stuff is made in the good old US of A in Washington state, real close to where a I live) - you've got 1400 bucks in parts.

 

You don't have the skills or tools to assemble it so you bring it to me who does. I've done some Warmoth assemblies for people (find my recent Jagsang thread) - by the time I assemble everything, level and dress the frets (Warmoth doesn't have a Plek as far as I know, at least the boards I've seen needed work), do the wiring, string it up and set the action to be reasonably playable, I'm going to have 6 or 8 or 10 hours of labor (and of course I have the tools). Lets just say 8 hours, I think it will be more, what do you pay yourself per hour? Minimum wage? If you are working for wages should you have any benefits - health insurance, retirement, vacation, yadda yadda). I'll tell you what, I'll charge you fifty bucks and hour and take care of the benies myself. So about $400 in labor.

 

You've got some options for a paint job on your new custom guitar - you can pay Warmoth to paint the body and neck, add $2-400. You can pay me, add $500. You can pay my buddy who does custom motorcycle painting, he starts at a grand and goes up

 

 

Add all that up and what do you know, you've got a $2000 guitar and you haven't even taken it to market.

[t_e_l_e]

^emg, i just wanted to make a calculation example and freeman added a lot of considerations aswell thx.

 

and its not about the Made in USA, cause warmoth uses also a fully automated cnc to route their necks and bodies. its more that all your stuff is handselected and matched, you as customer get all the choices for your custom wishes, hell for my strat i paid them $40 extra to search for lightest piece of swamp ash they had in stock

 

remove all the options reduce it to the most popular, reduce the finish options and you can produce them in batches and reduce the costs drastically, parallelize the assembly lines in big factories with workers which get less $1/hour (or even per day) you can produce in masses at very reduced cost.

 

will it be the same and the same quality as the $2000 custom guitar?

no, you get no handselected wood, just the next piece on the assembly line

you don't have all the different options and variations, hell it took me two weeks of investigation, measuring and reading infos on warmoth site to find out what neck is the one i want with all the details and options, you will have only a std paintjob and std quality controll

 

will you get a bad instrument?

no, if the manufactoring process is state of the art good and a good quality control behind it, you can get a fine instrument, which feels and plays and sounds great almost as good as the $2000 guitar, yes the chances to get a lemon are greater, as in the masses it can easier slip through QC

but it will not be a the same as $2000 custom guitar.

 

 

no i'm not trying to justify some ridiculous costum shop prices of fender, gibson, jackson, prs or any other you name, because most extra you pay is less custom and more brand and marketing and to some extend the consumers are willing to pay it.

 

but for the big brand custom guitars they use more the warmoth style of producing them and hand selecting the woods and stuff, than have parallel assembly lines to produce thousands of them a day, so besides the different labor costs its costs also more in producing them, even if all 1000 pieces of the custom they make, have the same paintjob...

 

does it cost that much more, to justify their rediculous high prices?

[EmgEsp]

I just did a comparison with Warmoth and Kiesel.

 

(Warmoth build)

 

For the parts alone, the Warmoth would cost around $1300. Then add $300 - $400 for assembly which brings it up to $1600 - $1700. Very good price for a custom, but I think we can do even better.

 

(Kiesel Build)

 

The Kiesel which is fully assembled and setup from the factory would cost $1500, plus it comes with a premium soft case to boot. Think about that, a custom guitar about half the price of a standard mass produced USA Jackson and probably 3x cheaper than a custom Jackson with similar specs.

 

The name on the headstock is irrelevant to me, because at the end of the day I just want a well made guitar with a comfortable neck at the best price possible.

 

Forgot to mention the Kiesel is neck-thru construction where as the Warmoth is obviously bolt-on. That makes it even a better value.

[EmgEsp]

hellion_213 My friend owns a Kiesel, so its definitely not blind love for their products lol. Very impressed with his guitar. I'll definitely check out Diamond Guitars.

 

Here is my friends Kiesel.

 

[Etienne Rambert]

I see downward price pressure for guitar manufacturers. Gibson is Epiphone's parent, yet its made in USA line is competing directly with Epiphones high-end. Epiphone prices as a result will fall. That will have ripple effects throughout the industry - from big manufacturers to boutique makers.

 

(Exhibit A: http://www.thecurrent.org/feature/20...-sales-plummet )

Electric guitar sales have fallen by a third in the last ten years, so that now acoustic guitars are outselling electric models. Major manufacturers and retailers are falling into debt and slashing prices, and innovations like Gibson's self-tuning guitars haven't done much to slow the fall."

 

Last week, I intended to buy a MIM Fender. I saw PLEK'd USA Les Pauls selling cheaper than the Fender I wanted. As a result, I bought an LP even though I've never really wanted one.

 

I saw how earlier models were holding their value. So I made the calculation I could sell it for nearly what I paid if I did not like it. How are MIK and MIC Gretsches, Guilds and Epiphones going to compete? By lowering their prices.

 

Someone correctly said musical instruments are a luxury - not a necessity. So I see downward price pressure on luxury items until consumption- driven economies heat up again - if they ever do.

 

The prices for groceries and rent may be rising. They're necessities. The prices for guitars will be stable or fall.

 

If Gibson cancels its USA line - great. my guitar will keep its value or even rise. If Gibson continues or expands the line - great. The prices of its premium offerings will face downward pressure. And the prices of MIC, MIK, MIV instruments must fall.

 

(Interestingly, the MIM Classic Player guitars seem to hold their value too.)

[Verne Andru]

Guitar sales have been falling for a number of reasons, oversupply being a large part of the equation plus the new generations are into electronic music on their electrical gadgets and are generally ambivalent to the 'guitar-hero' culture that usually drives sales.

 

The largest selling stringed instrument ATM is the ukulele.