Members DeepEnd Posted October 19, 2015 Members Share Posted October 19, 2015 Highly subjective I know but this morning the praise band was practicing before church. This particular morning, I brought my electric (I'm usually an acoustic guy). I stand maybe 6' from my open backed amp (I use a 10' cable and it's not too short) and had it turned up so that I could hear my guitar. The lead vocalist immediately started screaming that "Dave's guitar is too loud!" Excuse me? Too loud? I can hear it in an empty church. When we get some people in here singing, and bodies absorbing sound, it won't be "too loud." To keep the peace, I turned my guitar down all the way during practice and turned it back up--not quite as far as before--during worship. Sure enough, I couldn't hear it at all. We are not Aerosmith in a stadium and I'm aware of that. We're a praise band in a small church and we don't need to rattle the windows but IMHO we do need a certain level of volume or else why bother? Next time I bring my electric, I'm going to turn it down for practice and turn it up as much as I want for worship. Anyway, how loud is "too loud" for you guys? Earplugs? Someone complains? Windows rattling? Reports of seismic activity? People rising from the dead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members badpenguin Posted October 19, 2015 Members Share Posted October 19, 2015 If I can't hear the bassist or the drummer, then it's too loud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members billybilly Posted October 19, 2015 Members Share Posted October 19, 2015 Will people need to talk while you are playing or are they singing with you? It's a matter of context but I feel all participating should be heard without anyone's ears hurting. It's not a competition, it's about synchronicity and connecting with people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sammyreynolds01 Posted October 19, 2015 Members Share Posted October 19, 2015 I agree with Billy. You should be loud enough just to be heard, nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tomm Williams Posted October 19, 2015 Members Share Posted October 19, 2015 Can you position your amp so it's pointed away from that person ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members speakerjones Posted October 19, 2015 Members Share Posted October 19, 2015 Is your amp aimed at your head or at your ankles? Proximity to your amp doesn't mean you can hear it better. Sometimes the opposite, eh?If you're running through a PA system, then you only need to be loud enough to hear yourself on stage when everything is going. If you're not mic'ed up, then you should probably do something about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted October 19, 2015 Members Share Posted October 19, 2015 I always thought it was nice when there was a sound engineer to balance all of the instruments and voices from somewhere out in the room. However, being an old fart with sensitive ears, if its too loud I get up and leave. edit to add - each year my son takes us to a Christmas concert by the Trans Siberian Orchestra - I know its going to be too loud and too bright. I take ear plugs and close my eyes a lot, but I still leave with a headache. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thatsbunk Posted October 19, 2015 Members Share Posted October 19, 2015 This looks to be a relatively inexpensive solution for your problem, I was seriously thinking about getting this system for our band once I free up a little spare cash; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mikeo Posted October 19, 2015 Members Share Posted October 19, 2015 Get a Jam Hub and everyone can go digital, digital drums, digital amps, bass direct. It would be the just the singer you'd here. Then when all the peeps get to church, you just send everything to the house PA. This is where a line 6 floor pedals would really shine too. Then everyone could have a lil monitor like the Mackie hanging off there mic stands. Personally I want my monitors running in stereo, so I'd need 2 of em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitarcapo Posted October 19, 2015 Members Share Posted October 19, 2015 In my experience, lots of church gigs want a guy standing on stage with a guitar for the modern "look" of it....but they don't want to HEAR the guitar at all. Because the sound of an electric guitar scares off the old people...and they have the deep pockets when it comes to donations. Turn your guitar down all the way to zero and stand up there playing. I'll bet the people in charge don't complain at all that they aren't hearing the guitar in the mix. I used to play at this one huge "Mega Presbyterian" church that was like that. If it was a paying gig I would have just sat there on stage like the decoration they wanted me to be. But I was there to have fun and it wasn't happening so I quit. They just wanted to look modern to the younger people by having rock instruments on stage....but they didn't want to go so far as to change the SOUND of the place. Younger people and my friends in the audience were complaining that they couldn't hear the guitar. It was all mixed at the board. No amps allowed on stage. It was a digital preamp straight to the board. Let me guess, keyboards, bass and drums cranked....electric guitar is the red headed stepchild in most churches. No respect at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members slideroni Posted October 19, 2015 Members Share Posted October 19, 2015 "Is your amp aimed at your head or at your ankles? Proximity to your amp doesn't mean you can hear it better. Sometimes the opposite, eh?"This. Get an amp stand that points the amp at your head.We guitarists usually like to play louder than others want to hear us. I would guess that most churches are not the place to rock out. Perhaps it would suit you to go secular and enjoy the freedom of expression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted October 19, 2015 Author Members Share Posted October 19, 2015 We play to accompany singing by the congregation so nobody is trying to talk, read, etc. I simply want to be able to hear my own guitar. When I play acoustic, that's not a problem. My amp is fed to the PA through a DI box so that's all I want. I stand between the piano and my amp and I can hear the piano fine. The bass is behind me and I don't notice it as much unless I'm paying attention or playing bass. I honestly think "Rhonda" (not her real name), the lead singer, is only concerned with people hearing her, not anybody else, so yeah, I think in part the guitars are for show. The rest of us know it's not a performance. I'm not there to "rock out." The next time, I'm going to move my amp closer to me and turn it away from "Rhonda." I'll probably also turn down the volume during practice and turn it up for worship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chordite Posted October 20, 2015 Members Share Posted October 20, 2015 'Too loud' is one of those things that happens when you have 4 soloists masquerading as a band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted October 20, 2015 Members Share Posted October 20, 2015 If you were playing your acoustic, is it amplified? If so, is it at the same level as your electric? Are you playing your acoustic and electric differently - ie, are you playing rhythm on your acoustic and some lead solos on the electric? How does that volume level compare with your practice or rehearsal? I can see how your singer might object if suddenly things were not what she expected or the way you had practiced, and altho I don't sing I would guess that a lead singer would expect to be heard (just like a solo guitarist would expect to be heard) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tomm Williams Posted October 20, 2015 Members Share Posted October 20, 2015 I'm guessing that you don't have anyone mixing the performance who is in the best position to judge the overall balance ? assuming that your guitar is too loud for the singer does NOT mean it doesn't fit in the FOH mix properly. Experiment with different locations for your amp that accomplishes her wants and your needs. Turning your amp just a few degrees to one side or another should resolve the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted October 20, 2015 Author Members Share Posted October 20, 2015 This incident happened during practice. I was playing my electric at the time. I don't play leads, strictly rhythm. Whatever I play is amplified during worship. During practice, I'm playing my acoustic unplugged because we don't have anyone to man the PA. I try to keep my electric at a level that's audible to me. From there, it's up to the sound guy, who is married to the lead vocalist, BTW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted October 20, 2015 Author Members Share Posted October 20, 2015 I'm guessing that you don't have anyone mixing the performance who is in the best position to judge the overall balance ? . . . As noted, we don't have a sound guy during practice. I suspect things sound fine during worship. In the future, I'm going to turn the amp away from her, move it closer to me, and turn down the volume during practice. I know I can turn it up during worship without bugging her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 In my experience' date=' lots of church gigs want a guy standing on stage with a guitar for the modern "look" of it....but they don't want to HEAR the guitar at all. Because the sound of an electric guitar scares off the old people...and they have the deep pockets when it comes to donations.[/quote'] At one time I would have tended to agree with you, but today most of those "old people" are from the rock and roll era themselves. It's becoming less of an issue than it once was, and electric guitars and other "modern" instruments are more widely accepted in churches today than they used to be. Turn your guitar down all the way to zero and stand up there playing. I'll bet the people in charge don't complain at all that they aren't hearing the guitar in the mix. Depends on the individual situation and "who is in charge." I know pastors with very well developed ears, and a lot of worship ministers are sensitive to what constitutes a "good mix" and will say something if they're not hearing what they expect to hear - including the electric guitarist's contributions. I used to play at this one huge "Mega Presbyterian" church that was like that. If it was a paying gig I would have just sat there on stage like the decoration they wanted me to be. But I was there to have fun and it wasn't happening so I quit. They just wanted to look modern to the younger people by having rock instruments on stage....but they didn't want to go so far as to change the SOUND of the place. Some Presbyterian churches are probably more traditional than some of the more youth-oriented non-denominational churches are. I've heard tons of guitar (not just acoustics) in churches. Younger people and my friends in the audience were complaining that they couldn't hear the guitar. It was all mixed at the board. No amps allowed on stage. It was a digital preamp straight to the board. Let me guess, keyboards, bass and drums cranked....electric guitar is the red headed stepchild in most churches. No respect at all. I used to run sound at a very large, multi-thousand member church (with five different "modern" leaning teams), so I have some experience in this area. I don't have a problem with amps on stage, and I don't have a problem taking something direct either if I need to... the issue they were probably trying to address is the potential for stage volume to get out of hand. When you're dealing with volunteers with relatively limited pro type playing experience (as many church musicians are), there are all sorts of challenges. One of the big ones is that people tend to want "more me" in their monitors (I ran eight different monitor sends to help alleviate that) and if left to their own devices, will tend to keep cranking their own individual amps up until the stage level is so out of control that the soundperson has zero control over the sound in the hall. And yes, it can be a balancing act between trying to keep the younger members of the congregation happy, as well as the older, more sensitive ones. Running sound is a pretty thankless job. I'm not a huge fan of live sound and greatly prefer working in the studio. Try suggesting the older folks sit towards the rear of the hall where it's quieter. Another useful tool can be the Rolls boxes that let you set your own signal level to your headphones or monitors relative to an incoming mix. Also, plexiglass panels can be useful to help prevent your amp from blasting anyone who is directly on-axis to it and sitting fairly close. Rehearsal and the service are two completely different things in terms of levels. As you noted, bodies do soak up sound to a degree, and the sound of hundreds or thousands of people singing along also makes things harder to hear, so the band's levels will almost certainly have to be louder in the service than in practice... but remember those stage levels - if they get out of control, there's nothing the sound person can do to fix things or make it sound good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted October 21, 2015 Author Members Share Posted October 21, 2015 As it happens, we're a small but progressive Methodist church where most folks have no problems with electric guitars. Worship attendance is about 100 people with a decent mix of ages. I'm being snarky here but I think part of the problem is that "Rhonda" has a background in musical theater, where the musicians are mere support for the people who really matter, the actors (i.e., in this case "Rhonda"). But in this case she's not a soloist she's a song leader. Plus, she's not taking into account the acoustics of actual worship. The next time I bring my electric, I'm going to move my amp toward me, turn it away from her, and turn down the volume during practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Notes_Norton Posted October 21, 2015 Members Share Posted October 21, 2015 How loud is too loud? It depends on the gig. I've played some gigs where I was 'sonic wallpaper' and 50dba was just right. I play a yacht club where 65dba in the audience is good during dinner and 90dba on the dance floor is good after dinner for dancing. I try to keep the volume no higher than 85db at the first table past the dance floor. Long exposure over 85dba can damage the ears of my audience, and I don't want to be the blame for that. If they ask me to crank it up, it's their choice. Insights and incites by Notes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Grant Harding Posted October 22, 2015 Members Share Posted October 22, 2015 In my band I'd say "Ronda - stop being a f*****g prima Donna." but I realise that's probably not an option in this context. People need that sort of tough love occasionally to help them get over themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 In my band I'd say "Ronda - stop being a f*****g prima Donna." but I realise that's probably not an option in this context. People need that sort of tough love occasionally to help them get over themselves. Or remind her that a worship leader's job is to get people to a place where they can focus on worship and then get out of the way / disappear. In church, the focus isn't supposed to be on "you" - even as a worship leader / singer OR musician. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Malcolm Ramone Posted October 23, 2015 Members Share Posted October 23, 2015 A: Depends on how old you are - "If it's too loud..." B: As loud as you can, without causing complaints!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted October 23, 2015 Author Members Share Posted October 23, 2015 Unfortunately, we suffer from one of the ills of small churches. There are a few families that have influence beyond others. "Rhonda" and her husband are the heads one of those families. As I mentioned, her husband is the sound guy. I hate to be uncharitable about this but doggone it when I can't hear my own amp it's hard to believe it's "too loud" rather than something else being the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members IamBurnout Posted October 23, 2015 Members Share Posted October 23, 2015 Make a loud and joyful noise unto the Lord! Or, it's too loud when the treble from your amp cause binaural beating against your tinitus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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