Members Grant Harding Posted August 7, 2017 Members Share Posted August 7, 2017 I don't think they'll ever sound as pleasing to our meat ears as wood guitars, so I don't see the point in wasting money (and the health impact) trying to reinvent guitars.Even the best CF guitar I've heard doesn't have the warmth or tonal complexity that a decent wood one has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EmgEsp Posted August 7, 2017 Author Members Share Posted August 7, 2017 Grant, are you talking just acoustics or electrics as well? Do you really believe the materials used on a solid body electric guitar really makes a huge impact on tone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted August 7, 2017 Members Share Posted August 7, 2017 I'm going to jump in here. As I said before, there are three schools of thought - its all the pickup, the wood makes a big difference, the wood makes some difference. I'm in the last camp. I have anecdotal evidence from several guitars that I have built - this is probably the most glaring. These two guitars are have mahogany bodies but one is chambered, so you can say its mostly air. They have slightly different top caps, but identical pickups, electronics, scale,yadda yadda. The chambered one is two pounds lighter. It has slightly more tone unplugged but not much - it certainly is not acting as an acoustic guitar. We played both of them thru the same Quilter amp with no effects, same pick, settings, players, riffs. Everyone agrees that there is a difference (some of you might remember that I posted clips here and we had a discussion). It is very hard to put into words, but it is there. For that matter, t_e_l_e's 335 clone has the same pups as the two Lesters, and a big old hunk of wood in the middle kind of like the chambered one, but sounds way different Emg old boy, there is a lot more that goes into these little boxes than you have any idea edit to add, the "weight relief" that Gibson is doing on their solids now is a simple version of that chambering - they just drill a lot of holes in the body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Grant Harding Posted August 7, 2017 Members Share Posted August 7, 2017 I never said a huge impact on tone. It's complicated, because so many things go into making amazing sounds from an electric guitar and it's highly contextual. The player, the amp, and the amount of distortion used all make a gigantic difference. When you have a skilled player, through a great amp, with a clean tone the extra beauty that great materials provide are more obvious. If you play metal then the body material is almost irrelevant. This is why this argument always persists and goes around in circles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mikeo Posted August 8, 2017 Members Share Posted August 8, 2017 A local guy plays a bunch of carbon fiber guitars, he's and older gentleman, and is retired. His main job was in software engineer. I have played several of his carbon fiber guitars. They are not light in weight. I thought I was taking hold of a Les Paul, when he hand me one of his composites.It's a costly process to manufacture. Both my wife's sister and my wife's son worked for a division of Kaman that produce car parts and medical parts. There's molds, machining, and tooling and vacuuming bags for curing. I know they have contracts with Corvette and Roll Royce. They are very consistent in tone, very loud, yet lack the warmth and character of wood. With that being said , once you put a pick up in an acoustic you can make it sound like almost anything. Almost. I have a Martin 00016 ( old Fishman blender) I use for most of my playing out, I run it through a Fishman Spectra DI, and set the guitar type and mic, and then run the blend knob to taste. Depending on the gig/ show I have gone in to the PA and also have used one of several acoustic amps I own. The Parker Fly was not an inexpensive guitar , but they were light, which is just the opposite of what I found with acoustic composites. I never played and import Parker, just the USA made ones when there were made in Boston.. They had great necks on them too. Little weird they were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators daddymack Posted August 8, 2017 Moderators Share Posted August 8, 2017 I have tried many of the carbon fiber guitars at NAMM over the years, and frankly, there is nothing wrong with them...but...let's keep in mind that a well made wooden guitar will 'age' and 'mellow' over time [either acoustic or electric]. The wood will dry, the wood will shrink, the wood will absorb moisture, the wood will expand, and over the years this will change how the guitar sounds, more so on acoustics and hollow bodies, but also on solid body and semi hollows, and usually for the better. A CF guitar better sound good to you on day one, because on day 100,001 it will still sound the same.I have a couple of HPL/fiberglas acoustics/electrics [a Martin and a Stratacoustic.], and I got them because they would be impervious to the elements, playing outdoors near the beach, out in the desert, up in the mountains, etc [all within a 2 hour drive of LA]. Neither is what I would consider outstanding sounding [compared to my 1971 mahogany Guild], but they are consistent, and with a Body Rez pedal...frankly audiences don't have a clue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EmgEsp Posted August 8, 2017 Author Members Share Posted August 8, 2017 You say they sound different, but is tone of the chambered guitar different in a bad way, or just simply different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1001gear Posted August 8, 2017 Members Share Posted August 8, 2017 A CF guitar better sound good to you on day one, because on day 100,001 it will still sound the same. Hey I resemble that. Presuming musicians make it more than 50 more years, they could easily whip up aging machines that would work on any kind of material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators daddymack Posted August 8, 2017 Moderators Share Posted August 8, 2017 do let me know when that happens...I'll be waiting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Emory Posted August 8, 2017 Members Share Posted August 8, 2017 Love your Blade Runner quote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Emory Posted August 8, 2017 Members Share Posted August 8, 2017 I believe Parker is now on "hiatus".... or out of business.... Their website says they will be back next year, but who knows? I have an import Parker P-36 take on tele with piezo. Carbon reinforced headstock (I put yellow and green on, body usual wood). Very little width, can't put on wall hanger. Plus is being able to hang fishing lures, Christmas ornaments off of B and E strings, which are flying like clothes line beneath. Goes against "wisdom" of adding mass to headstock, recall those extra weights some people bought for that purpose. Sorry it wasn't strung up when I shot this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members hellion_213 Posted August 8, 2017 Members Share Posted August 8, 2017 Body material does matter for metal, just in a different context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members hellion_213 Posted August 8, 2017 Members Share Posted August 8, 2017 with all of the drawbacks to Carbon fiber, price tag being the biggest non-subjective point, why Only the defense and push for Only carbon fiber as a wood alternative? The inability to mod without spending another fortune is also a Huge drawback to CF. What if I buy a CF HSS strat and want to add a full route Floyd? Not only is that near impossible for the DIYer, but now I need F-spaced pickups, and want to install a humbucker at the neck. Now I've decided to go EMG a year later and need a battery compartment. Not a big fan of duct taping a compartment on, so back to the factory it goes. I'm all for 'other' materials, but your chosen material is just too costly for me, and I'm guessing, the majority of other players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EmgEsp Posted August 8, 2017 Author Members Share Posted August 8, 2017 I don't understand why people would want their instruments tone to change with age. I don't see how that is a good thing. I want it to sound good from day one and stay the same sound as long as possible. I don't look at guitars like freaking wine. The only good quality about aged guitars is the natural rolled off fingerboard ends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EmgEsp Posted August 8, 2017 Author Members Share Posted August 8, 2017 All things created equal are you saying some woods are objectively better sounding than others on a solid body guitar? I'm trying to understand what you mean by "great materials". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted August 8, 2017 Members Share Posted August 8, 2017 Most trustless guitars use carbon fiber. I thought of trying it for a build but never got that far into it. Parker was the company that made its name off of carbon fiber. I played a Parker Fly maybe 16 years ago and it was an amazing instrument. Very light and sounded wonderful. Very expensive however. Most of they're line is normal wood. Ken Parker wanted to make his guitar lighter than standard electrics. He started off experimenting with different tone woods, shaving surplus wood off the body to save weight. When he saw a friend of his use carbon fiber to repair speed-boats, he began experimenting with this new material in conjunction with the wood. Parker Guitars: Parker Maxx Fly 7 The resulting guitar was made of a composite, with a carbon fiber exoskeleton providing the rigidity, and a core of traditional hardwood to give the instrument its characteristic tone. Depending on the model, this could be anything from warm mahogany to crisp ash or (strangely) a softwood like spruce. The same approach was used on the neck and fret board, which again wraps a central hardwood core in strands of carbon and epoxy resin. The carbon fret board is very hard and smooth to play, while the neck becomes extremely rigid, and can be made thinner for easier, faster playing. In addition, Parker necks are “seasonally stable” (i.e. impervious to the atmosphere’s fluctuations in temperature and humidity) and stay in tune almost perfectly. Finally, the carbon-based composite makes Parker guitars far lighter, weighing as little as 2kg! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EmgEsp Posted August 8, 2017 Author Members Share Posted August 8, 2017 Looks like Parker had the design down, too bad not many followed in its footsteps. Having a guitar under 5lbs would be pretty sweet, especially if there are no balance issues with the neck wanting to dive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 Good or bad - that part is subjective... I think the main point here is that the wood appears to be making a tonal contribution. Even on electric guitars (where the pickups are the biggest tonal influencers) the wood makes a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted August 8, 2017 Members Share Posted August 8, 2017 You say they sound different, but is tone of the chambered guitar different in a bad way, or just simply different? I don't know if you'll come back and read this but to summarize, the solid guitar seemed to have longer sustain, and is some circles, sustain seems to be the holy grail. The chambered guitar might have been a little more "complex", in some circles a complex sound with lots of partials seems to be desirable. The semi hollow has the least amount of sustain (is that bad?) and the notes seemed to have a sharper attach and decay. Would a jazz player prefer that? The semi wants to feed back, that's a bad thing, right? Unless you're Hendrix I guess. I also built a semi with a full length center block - unfortunately it has a different kind of pup so comparison is meaningless. However the jazz player I built if for seems to get some pretty sweet sounds out of it. Its subtle, very subtle, and if I just played one of the guitars at a time I would say "you know, that sounds like a guitar" (I might say it sounded pretty good but them I'm prejudiced 'cause my name is on them). But played side by side by side the difference is there and its really fun to think about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted August 8, 2017 Members Share Posted August 8, 2017 I believe Parker is now on "hiatus".... or out of business.... Their website says they will be back next year, but who knows? I have an import Parker P-36 take on tele with piezo. Carbon reinforced headstock (I put yellow and green on, body usual wood). Very little width, can't put on wall hanger. Plus is being able to hang fishing lures, Christmas ornaments off of B and E strings, which are flying like clothes line beneath. Goes against "wisdom" of adding mass to headstock, recall those extra weights some people bought for that purpose. Sorry it wasn't strung up when I shot this. Ken Parker is alive and well and building archtops. There was a wonderful two part article about him and his theories in the last two issues of Fretboard Journal http://www.kenparkerarchtops.com/ In summary, he felt he took the electric design about as far as he could with the Fly, spun the design off to another company (which is apparently building both outside the US and domestically). Parker is concentrating now on reinventing the archtop and his designs do use CF as a structural material (but not for its sound characteristics). He is build up to six guitars a year and has a waiting list - EmgEsp will want to know why anyone would pay $30,000 for one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EmgEsp Posted August 8, 2017 Author Members Share Posted August 8, 2017 I'd sacrifice a bit of sustain for a lighter guitar. Its not like I just constantly let my notes ring for long periods of time when I'm playing. I think people hype up sustain way too much. In real world applications it doesn't mean that much, at least for my type of playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EmgEsp Posted August 8, 2017 Author Members Share Posted August 8, 2017 $30,000? I'm speechless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Grant Harding Posted August 8, 2017 Members Share Posted August 8, 2017 No - I'm talking about excellent pieces of wood that have been master graded for tone, regardless of wood species. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted August 8, 2017 Members Share Posted August 8, 2017 https://www.forbes.com/sites/karstenstrauss/2013/05/15/a-lone-artisan-and-the-30000-guitar/#4d5a73b813e9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 EmgEsp commented 08-08-2017, 09:00 AM $30,000? I'm speechless. I know the price tag is a shock, but let's look at the financials. He's one person, and he can only build six guitars a year - one every two months. Six guitars at $30k each is $180k. After all of his materials costs and business overhead are subtracted, he's almost certainly making less than $150k, and probably closer to $100-125k a year. While that's certainly not "bad" money, it's not an unreasonable or extravagant income for a true artisan and one of the best people around at the craft of making high-end instruments. And if he's got a waiting list for his services and can regularly build and sell instruments in the $30k+ per guitar price range, he's definitely in that category. Welcome to the world of small production, hand-built, high-end, boutique artisan instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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