OT: Bane wanna be attacks!

[crohny]

Well that's the point isn't it? It does there, it doesn't here.. why do you think that it?

 

But did you have an extremely large amount of illegal fire arms in your country? Was there as much gun crime prior to the no gun laws as there are here. You're comparing two different social settings. It's a large gamble to take and putting my life in potential risk.

[hangwire]

Not a bad idea. It'd have to be actually embedded in the bullets somehow, though.

 

 

thats why i said at production. money is the fuel of evil. close down and stop money flowing through these easy channels. Guns are much less dangerous if there is no ammunition inside.

[Phil O'Keefe]

Except for this time. You thinking you could've stopped this lunatic and the people around you being safer is at best, pure conjecture.

 

I absolutely agree - any "what if" sort of comments ARE pure conjecture. I've never implied or stated otherwise. But I do still feel the tactical situation is improved if someone in the crowd has a concealed carry permit and the ability to offer up a viable resistance and defense to the attack. As it was, there was none... and something generally is better than nothing.

 

If you had fired at him (that is if you could even see him through the smoke and darkness) it wouldn't have made much difference with someone wearing kevlar.

 

It makes the task more difficult, but not impossible. Most training in defensive shooting is going to tell you to go for center mass shots first, but if they are ineffective, or if you see the assailant is wearing a vest, to switch to head and / or pelvic shots instead. While a broken pelvis isn't going to totally incapacitate the shooter, it's going to severely restrict his mobility - and for that matter, his ability to stand. That alone would have greatly aided those who were trying to get out of the attacker's line of fire.

 

As far as smoke and darkness, they affect the shooter just as much as the defender. From the reports I've read, the tear gas protection the guy had included a mask and goggles. Unless he was wearing NVG (night vision), he's got to deal with darkness and smoke limiting his vision too.

 

Gas doesn't disperse and fill the entire room instantly either. Unless you happen to be within ten or twenty feet of where the CS canister lands, you've got a few seconds - minimum - to respond without the gas being a factor for you at all. If you're at the far end of the theater, you might have more time, and by the time the gas reaches you, it will be quite a bit less effective than if you were closer.

 

Assuming you even had a chance to draw your weapon, click off the safety first.

 

Depending on the pistol, that's a non-issue. My two carry weapons are a 1911A1 and a Glock 23. The "safety" for the Glock is built into the trigger. The safety for the 1911A1 is on the side, and then there's also a grip safety. In both cases, you can easily disengage them as part of the draw - grip safety is taken care of when you grip the weapon, and your right hand thumb disengages the safety as you're raising it up to acquire a sight picture.

 

I also submit that the shooter would have had to have super-human hearing to hear the sound of a safety being disengaged 20' away while a gas canister is hissing, an action movie is playing, and people are yelling, crying out in pain, etc. - yet alone over the sound of his own weapon. Ever fired a weapon indoors? Kiss goodbye your hearing for a while - without protection, it goes out the window with the first shot fired.

 

He probably would've then signaled you out, and eliminated both you and everyone sitting near you. Still the best advice is to have run as fast as possible, fight another day.

 

This is also pure conjecture.

 

It would depend on where you were in relation to the shooter, what the shooter was doing at the time, etc. Running - or just laying low - might have indeed been the best response for some people. If the guy is facing your direction and is 6' away, standing up and running probably isn't a very good idea. It all depends on the individual situations. However, remember that just because you had a CCW and weapon doesn't mean those other alternatives are no longer still available to you - it just means that you have additional alternatives. Deciding on which course of action to take depends on the situation.

[Phil O'Keefe]

Guys, please debate the issues - I don't want to see any more ad hominem attacks please - from either side.

[Sunsetcarcrash]

I think its better that people who are afraid of guns don't believe in concealled carry... They arent the type of people I would want trying to protect my family... Im 24 years old, but call me old fashioned. I am a warrior... I have the warrior mindset... I will do whatever I can to make sure my family and I, as well as my oath of office commands, the public, go home safely... I have been in firefights... Is it scary? My God yes... But I wont let that fear stop me from protecting my family or doing my job... I don't want to die, but I dont let that fear control my thoughts or actions...

[crohny]

 

And as regular as clockwork threads like this turn into a 2nd Amendment cluster {censored} on page 2. Back to the OP: The shooter's residence is wired up seven ways from Sunday. Police stymied. http://gizmodo.com/5927800/dark-knight-shooter-booby-trapped-his-house-with-tripwires-bombs-and-chemical-weapons

 

 

And this proves guns aren't the only problem. The human mind is the problem. {censored}.

[V]

 

You have the right to say as you please. I don't want to silence you, I was just pointing out you were saying you were over this but kept coming back. I like debating these kinds of social issues. They are something I believe that shouldn't be ignored. My problem is soap box preaching doesn't educate. You're forcing your beliefs down ones throat essentially when you could actually be doing something on a political platform that could truly make a difference. I have reached a point in my life where if I want something changed I want to make an effort. Mainly due to my bass player who is highly active in local politics and has become a delegate for the 2012 presidential elections. I have reach the point were I will listen to what you have to say, but if you're going to just rant and not try and take some kind of action then I can't take you seriously.

 

 

People who "rant" as you say are not to be dismissed. Those kinds of "rants" are the things that actually led to things like civil rights gaining enough traction to become a real political movement. I mean I am a writer. I don't just voice opinions on forums. I prefer as wide a public as possible and I do usually make highly reasoned arguments. This is an outlier for me because I was already having a {censored}ty day.

[IRG]

Yeah, lots of conjecture with this whole thing. Glad I wasn't there, or anyone else here for that matter. Normally, if this was a shooter without all the protection he had, then yes, having someone close by who knows how to use a firearm, it would've been better than no firearm, still an assumption, but probably not a bad one. But for the weapons he had, and his preparation, he was hell bent on killing/wounding as many as possible, same with this apartment, and there wasn't much that was going to stop him. I still don't know exactly how he was stopped. Sounds like he just gave up.

[V]

 

And this proves guns aren't the only problem. The human mind is the problem. {censored}.

 

 

Absolutely. 3% of the population is literally sociopathic. Think about how many people that is.

[dZjupp]

HEY COME ON!!!!


ITS FFFNNN SCREECH!!!

[hotmess]

 

I think its better that people who are afraid of guns don't believe in concealled carry... They arent the type of people I would want trying to protect my family... Im 24 years old, but call me old fashioned. I am a warrior... I have the warrior mindset... I will do whatever I can to make sure my family and I, as well as my oath of office commands, the public, go home safely... I have been in firefights... Is it scary? My God yes... But I wont let that fear stop me from protecting my family or doing my job... I don't want to die, but I dont let that fear control my thoughts or actions...

 

 

I agree on the other side. I hate guns. I can't own a gun, and I'm glad I can't own a gun. I wouldn't feel any safer with one. My mother, on the other hand. Big gun lover. Gun owner. Has decades of experience. My grandfather taught her ever since she was little. I'd feel safe with her.

 

I don't think this is something that can be solved with general statements. It seems to be pro-gun or anti-gun with no individual factors put in.

 

In this particular situation, that dude's mom knew as soon as she was contacted that they "got the right guy." If your mother knows that you're mentally capable of that {censored}, you should get help and shouldn't have a gun.

[Terminus]

Really, proper gun control is just as much about the flow of illegal guns as the trade amongst law abiding citizens. Of course, Americas long history of the latter may have some direct influence on the prevalence of the former...

[Rezrover]

Now they are saying he was dressed as the Joker during the shootings.

[crohny]

Absolutely. 3% of the population is literally sociopathic. Think about how many people that is.

 

 

It's too many and it's why I like that I am allowed to own a gun and like that I will be pushing for stricter gun laws in my county/state.

[Sunsetcarcrash]

 

I agree on the other side. I hate guns. I can't own a gun, and I'm glad I can't own a gun. I wouldn't feel any safer with one. My mother, on the other hand. Big gun lover. Gun owner. Has decades of experience. My grandfather taught her ever since she was little. I'd feel safe with her. I don't think this is something that can be solved with general statements. It seems to be pro-gun or anti-gun with no individual factors put in. In this particular situation, that dude's mom knew as soon as she was contacted that they "got the right guy." If your mother knows that you're mentally capable of that {censored}, you should get help and shouldn't have a gun.

 

 

Yeah! And I realize now that my post may have come across as anti-anti-gun, but that wasnt how it was intended... Just that some people are qualified/up to it, and some are not... Neither side should be forced to think like the other...

[crohny]

 

I agree on the other side. I hate guns. I can't own a gun, and I'm glad I can't own a gun. I wouldn't feel any safer with one. My mother, on the other hand. Big gun lover. Gun owner. Has decades of experience. My grandfather taught her ever since she was little. I'd feel safe with her. I don't think this is something that can be solved with general statements. It seems to be pro-gun or anti-gun with no individual factors put in. In this particular situation, that dude's mom knew as soon as she was contacted that they "got the right guy." If your mother knows that you're mentally capable of that {censored}, you should get help and shouldn't have a gun.

 

 

If the mother knew it was him I wonder if she ever did anything to get him help. If not that is pretty {censored}ed.

[Pedaltones]

We never have these mass-murder shootings commited by lunatics here because we don't have a right to bear arms and guns aren't prevalent among the general population (oustide of paramilitaries and a few drug gangs).

Why not arm everyone in the world so everyone can protect themselves from the resultant increase in random atrocities

Think of the jobs created - a boost to the weapons industry, a boon for the undertakers, a shot in the arm (excuse the pun) for Gun Nut Monthly publications & of course the need to hire more police/security install cameras everywhere to complete the police-statification of the world.

"From my cold dead hand"... could be the utopian dream realised.

[crohny]

We never have these mass-murder shootings commited by lunatics here because we don't have a right to bear arms and guns aren't prevalent among the general population (oustide of paramilitaries and a few drug gangs). Why not arm everyone in the world so everyone can protect themselves from the resultant increase in random atrocities Think of the jobs created - a boost to the weapons industry, a boon for the undertakers, a shot in the arm (excuse the pun) for Gun Nut Monthly publications & of course the need to hire more police/security install cameras everywhere to complete the police-statification of the world. "From my cold dead hand"... could be the utopian dream realised.

 

Yeah but you didn't have that right and there wasn't a wealth of guns so you never had to worry about these issues. So it's easy to joke but you are a completely different social setting.

[melx]

 

But did you have an extremely large amount of illegal fire arms in your country? Was there as much gun crime prior to the no gun laws as there are here. You're comparing two different social settings. It's a large gamble to take and putting my life in potential risk.

 

 

yes, very different by the sounds of it .... but there's no reason why things can't change.. slowly but I get the feeling not many American's want any change... they like having guns.

 

.....generally I think the USA has a culture where it's (more?) acceptable to kill another human in a way that it isn't here.

 

Firstly we don't have the death penalty, so in that respect our laws lead by example if you like.

Secondly, not many people think it is acceptable to kill someone who breaks into your house un-armed, generally it's not seen as acceptable force.

.. so by that reasoning, someone breaking into your house is very unlikely to be armed.. burglary carries what? a few years.. armed robbery on the other hand is very serious.. and murder will get you life, so why would a guy robbing houses for drug money carry or use a gun? it's not worth the risk, he's a robber, he doesn't want to do time for murder or get into a shootout.

.. and more generally people just don't seem to want to have the burden and responsibility of gun ownership, I don't want to be in a position where I'm holding a weapon and making the choice to fire at someone... and I hope I never take someone's life by accident or otherwise in any circumstance.

.. seems to me that the whole 'I need a gun to protect me from from that person with a gun' is a never ending cycle... it would take a major change of attitude to break it.

[Terminus]

Yeah but you didn't have that right and there wasn't a wealth of guns so you never had to worry about these issues. So it's easy to joke but you are a completely different social setting.

 

 

Of course, the abundance of legal guns is in no way correlated to the abundance of illegal guns.

[Pedaltones]

 

Yeah but you didn't have that right and there wasn't a wealth of guns so you never had to worry about these issues. So it's easy to joke but you are a completely different social setting.

 

 

it's not really a joke...

I understand your country is flooded with weapons and a sudden ban on guns wouldn't solve this kind of occurance in the short term. In the meantime a sizable percentage of the population will stay armed to protect themselves and their loved ones. This precautionary paranioa will keep the cycle going (maybe increasing?) as population increases and more incidents spur more people to arm themselves ect.

Like I said, suddenly banning guns won't immediately fix the problem, but the status quo ensures it will last.

[V]

 

it's not really a joke... I understand your country is flooded with weapons and a sudden ban on guns wouldn't solve this kind of occurance in the short term. In the meantime a sizable percentage of the population will stay armed to protect themselves and their loved ones. This precautionary paranioa will keep the cycle going (maybe increasing?) as population increases and more incidents spur more people to arm themselves ect. Like I said, suddenly banning guns won't immediately fix the problem, but the status quo ensures it will last.

 

 

It's really not as common as it seems for Americans to own guns in general. Besides the police, in my part of the country I last saw an actual gun being carried by someone when I was like 10.

[cryptosonic]

Prohibitions usually result in dangerously unregulated black markets in this country.

[Phil O'Keefe]

 

Of course, the abundance of legal guns is in no way correlated to the abundance of illegal guns.

 

 

There's some correlation, but there are plenty of other avenues that give the bad guys access to weapons. Frankly, "gun laws" only affect the law-abiding; if you think the gangs here in California are going to turn in their firearms just because a new law was passed requiring them to do so, I think you're mistaken.

 

Besides, even if I could wave a magic wand and cause every firearm on the planet to disappear, there would still be murders and mass murders. People would just switch to other types of weapons, such as explosives, contact weapons, driving cars through crowds, etc.

[Terminus]

There's some correlation, but there are plenty of other avenues that give the bad guys access to weapons. Frankly, "gun laws" only affect the law-abiding; if you think the gangs here in California are going to turn in their firearms just because a new law was passed requiring them to do so, I think you're mistaken.

 

 

Not at all what I said, but that's par for the course. Like I've said before, real gun control is about legal and illegal guns alike. The logical way to go after the illegal ones are obviously not restrict the use of legal ones.