Members pbone Posted August 9, 2012 Members Share Posted August 9, 2012 In the end, as a musician ask yourself what skill or service your selling. If your answer is art, well...see above. I'll skip the long response and just say this: I disagree with the sentiment that music is some special brand of art other than in the sense that writing is different than fine art and fine art is different than music and there is some amount of difference to all of the creative differences, etc. But art isn't selling a skill or service, it's selling taste--but it's not the service that you are buying but rather the long, arduous development of that taste that you are indulging the product of. I'm not saying that we should have some sort of equal salary just because we put a song together or whatever, obviously art is competitive and quick to separate the wheat from the chaff, but ultimately it taste that you are selling. It's not even about how long your band has been around: Tame Impala and Bombay Bicycle Club are both bands where either all the members or the majority of them are younger than I am and they both have been touring the world for a few years now. Needless to say, though, like I said: if art is taste, art is time, and time is money. All of those variables work intimately with one another. Ira Glass: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Aristotle Posted August 9, 2012 Members Share Posted August 9, 2012 nice post parker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members juri Posted August 9, 2012 Members Share Posted August 9, 2012 Music is just moving air Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members PKTrono Posted August 9, 2012 Members Share Posted August 9, 2012 i had to pay for my fan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members juri Posted August 9, 2012 Members Share Posted August 9, 2012 If you could invite all your friends over to come watch you play as well that would be great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lucid origami Posted August 9, 2012 Members Share Posted August 9, 2012 i had to pay for my fan I bought all my band's fans with sexual favors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members goodhonk Posted August 9, 2012 Members Share Posted August 9, 2012 did you post this mike? http://phoenix.craigslist.org/nph/muc/3192522861.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Will Chen Posted August 9, 2012 Members Share Posted August 9, 2012 I'll skip the long response and just say this: I disagree with the sentiment that music is some special brand of art other than in the sense that writing is different than fine art and fine art is different than music and there is some amount of difference to all of the creative differences, etc. But art isn't selling a skill or service, it's selling taste--but it's not the service that you are buying but rather the long, arduous development of that taste that you are indulging the product of.I'm not saying that we should have some sort of equal salary just because we put a song together or whatever, obviously art is competitive and quick to separate the wheat from the chaff, but ultimately it taste that you are selling. It's not even about how long your band has been around: Tame Impala and Bombay Bicycle Club are both bands where either all the members or the majority of them are younger than I am and they both have been touring the world for a few years now. Needless to say, though, like I said: if art is taste, art is time, and time is money. All of those variables work intimately with one another.Ira Glass: Ira's quote is interesting as it implies a singular truth in good taste, a rather arrogant perspective but I suppose that type of relentless belief in oneself is part of what drove his success. I would imply there is simply "taste" and the savvy in the creative industries know how to connect to a niche audience who happen to have similar taste to their own. After all Jay-Z, Skrilliz, Pat Metheny, Jack White, Brad Paisley, etc are all successful and yet it is a rarity to find a audience who would appreciate all of them. I would also argue that the vast majority of successful musicians understand the huge differences in songwriting, performance, and business and without an understanding of each, success would be fleeting. In the music industry, specifically in modern popular music (excluding industry vehicles) it seems most often its the bands/singers/guitarists/etc who can't live without playing, even if it means playing for free, which are the only ones persistent enough to break through. The guys that have to be out there on stage every night for which everything else in life is a second thought. The ones holding out for a payday move on to an easier source of income. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Reauchambeau Posted August 9, 2012 Members Share Posted August 9, 2012 the musicians union needs more muscle. actually the musicians union is very efficient Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members notjonahbutnoah Posted August 9, 2012 Members Share Posted August 9, 2012 Lots of jobs deal with literal {censored}. Farming is an extremely important industry and those folks live wth {censored} every day. Im not dogging any of it. I just think its funny to push your kid into a job like that because someone in india cant plunge those toilets! Indeed. Some jobs are just {censored}ty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Reauchambeau Posted August 9, 2012 Members Share Posted August 9, 2012 people acting like {censored} is gross, when it comes out their own ass everyday, is kind of funny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Reaganomics! Posted August 9, 2012 Members Share Posted August 9, 2012 people acting like {censored} is gross, when it comes out their own ass everyday, is kind of funny who are you? GG Allin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Reaganomics! Posted August 9, 2012 Members Share Posted August 9, 2012 also, I'll believe art is real or worthwhile or whatever when I can see it traded in sham securities on the stock market in a scheme that makes ivy league legacy grads richer and crashes the economy. Until then you're just a bunch of assholes wasting your lives not making money. In fact you should probably get less money. less than the minimum wage or at least so little that you starve and stop holding the real true investing americans back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members echodeluxe Posted August 9, 2012 Members Share Posted August 9, 2012 More like Ira Class, amirite? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Beyer160 Posted August 9, 2012 Members Share Posted August 9, 2012 Lots of jobs deal with literal {censored}. Farming is an extremely important industry and those folks live wth {censored} every day. Im not dogging any of it. I just think its funny to push your kid into a job like that because someone in india cant plunge those toilets! I was half kidding before, but now I'll be half serious- I knew a kid growing up named Jeff whose dad was a plumber. Some of the kids at school made fun of him because his dad cleaned up their {censored}. In high school though, they began to realize that the plumber dad made as much money as their dads did, and after the real estate market tanked he kept making good money while many of their dads had to sell their BMWs and get jobs at Wal-Mart. Then these kids all went to college and got loaded down with massive student loan debt and couldn't get jobs while Jeff went to work for his dad the plumber and started making good money, too. We all deal with {censored} at work, it's just that plumbers deal with literal {censored} instead of metaphorical {censored}. I'd be OK with my son being a mechanic, too- is that better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Danhedonia Posted August 9, 2012 Members Share Posted August 9, 2012 Will is entirely correct (I will also go a little further and say that Ira Glass is insufferably arrogant). Something is worth what people are willing to pay for it. So, so many musicians wish so much to become professional (by definition, someone others will pay to perform) that they try to insist upon it. Well, that's not the way it works; you can't demand that others pay what YOU think they should pay; that's coercion. I've worked booking shows, and was a talent buyer at a club that had guarantees up to $6k in the 90's; I've worked a lot of other gigs in the business including A&R, artist management, having a label ... ... the most incredibly common experience for most people to have in working with musicians is to have the musician demand to name their pay scale, when the market does not support that. The second most common is for a musician to demand to be treated as a partner, but not bothering to learn the business of the club / bar / indie label / tour support company / caterer / whatthe{censored}ever with whom they are partnered. I work in a very different business now, for a very big, successful company. You know what? We still sometimes work for free, when we want/need the opportunity or get something of value in return. So, as a guy who used to get a {censored}load of cassettes (yup, I'm that old) shoved through the club door's slot daily, here are the facts:* there are many, many, many more makers of music than there are paying stages for them (this goes from corners of coffee shops to end-capped CD releases with high seven figure radio promo budgets on the first single). * Most smaller music venues do not make money on the musical performance, when you do the math (I did the math in the thread on this topic that appeared three months ago in HCMusicBiz, please search it if you want the actual math from a sizable club show w/cover charge, breaks it all out). They make money when they sell a fair bit of booze. That means a band with no fans (or in the case of Fugazi, fans who don't drink) loses money for the venue.* Most venues do, in fact, respect musicians even if they cannot pay them as they would wish.* If you're smart, you can easily negotiate your worth with any venue. Example: "I went by your place on a couple of Tuesdays, and counted x tables seated at 8pm. When I played to your crowd, the house was full. I'm thinking that at $20/diner you're getting an additional $x00 in on the nights I play. I'm thinking that half that is a reasonable fee for my appearance." Do you know how many establishments would LOVE to have that discussion, as opposed to "This other band that we're easily as cool as got (fee for totally irrelevant non-similar venue) when they play, so you hafta pay us that, MAN!"? When I booked bands at the club, some punk bands were so good at packing the place with drinkers that we'd work out fees based on bar receipts. Know your business partners, and be respectful of their needs, and you will find your negotiations working. Finally, there's this:You're not famous. That means that while people may appreciate your rendition of "Brown Eyed Girl" as they belly up to the buffet again, not a thing would change if you were not there. Building an audience and fan base takes work, and that doesn't mean just showing up and playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members onyxrhino Posted August 9, 2012 Members Share Posted August 9, 2012 I think the Ira Glass quote is pretty good. I know alot of artists who have struggled to match their own tastes. Most gave up. I think its an important lesson. However, another element to it is that production often supercedes taste. What I mean is that the people who I've seen who have become successful in artistic endeavors may not have the best taste, but they keep working and working and making stuff and the more they make, the more they figure out what works and what doesn't. It may help them in the end, to have good taste, to have a "vision" or whatever, but that's just the final piece. The main thing is the craft that they learn with time and effort. Of course, that all seems like its not really addressing the point of this thread. I can understand musicians wanting to be paid. But, I don't think you should be indignant when someone asks you to play for free. All you have to say is "no thanks". I started working in independent film after college. I was always asking people to donate something for free. And you've probably asked for help with your projects before, without offering monetary compensation. It's much better a place tell you upfront that "we'd like you to play, and maybe it will turn into something, maybe not, but we don't have money to pay you unless it does," rather than making promises of compensation and not keeping them. If you know where you stand, you can just turn them down. There are other musicians who might be willing to play for free for exposure or just the opportunity or whatever, and I don't see anything wrong with that either. Most people need to realize that the chances of making a living at any truly artistic endeavor are pretty slim no matter what. Sometimes you just have to do it for the sake of doing it and improving with experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members A.P. Ryder Posted August 9, 2012 Members Share Posted August 9, 2012 Show up with the theremin you got 2 days ago and two ring modulators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Zappa74 Posted August 9, 2012 Members Share Posted August 9, 2012 who are you? GG Allin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members d4rk0 Posted August 9, 2012 Members Share Posted August 9, 2012 Can't download live music performed in front of you. iPhone'd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members V Posted August 10, 2012 Members Share Posted August 10, 2012 The difference though, is that plumbers provide a service people actually need. Which is why I'm encouraging my son to become a plumber instead of going to college. When your toilet starts to overflow raw sewage into your house, you can't get a plumber from India or China cheaper over the internet. Show me someone who would like to live in a world without artists or entertainers. Musicians fill a need too. It's just emotional rather than mechanical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Reaganomics! Posted August 10, 2012 Members Share Posted August 10, 2012 before everyone goes any further down the "well society dictates stuff is only worth X amount" just remember that in our lifetimes fortunes were made selling painted rocks, healing crystals and Golden Corral meals. also, at least front the {censored}ing gas money if someone's going to come to your place to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members driverhasabomb Posted August 10, 2012 Members Share Posted August 10, 2012 If you want a steady income from playing music join your local union and become an active member. Network your balls off and learn to play a variety of genres. Sometimes if you want to get paid like a real job you have to treat it like a real job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members oinkbanana Posted August 10, 2012 Members Share Posted August 10, 2012 there's a difference between a musician and an entertainer.and this If you want a steady income from playing music join your local union and become an active member. Network your balls off and learn to play a variety of genres. Sometimes if you want to get paid like a real job you have to treat it like a real job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members coloringpad Posted August 10, 2012 Members Share Posted August 10, 2012 I shell out money to play somtimes. I have been paid one dollar as a musician so far for live events and as a guest musician in studio sessions. One dollar. Since 1996. Bitches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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