Members UstadKhanAli Posted October 9, 2007 Members Share Posted October 9, 2007 Not that I'm an expert, but I've had good luck with RealTraps for my studio. It works well. What I know even less about is cheap foam stuff that we can use to make the sound a little better in our rehearsal studio. We have no need to soundproof, just to reduce the reflections a bit and "focus" the sound a little bit more. A friend of mine sent me this: http://www.foambymail.com/Pyramid.html At any rate, if you have any suggestions, please let me know. The room is long, probably about 12 feet across, and about 24 ft. long, and has a suspended office-style ceiling and drywall. It's in a rehearsal studio, along with a bunch of other bands. I appreciate any helpful tips or links to foam / sound deadening / diffusion manufacturers, mineral wool, bass traps, etc. that are inexpensive. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gus Lozada Posted October 9, 2007 Share Posted October 9, 2007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dean Roddey Posted October 9, 2007 Members Share Posted October 9, 2007 I use Auralex. I'm not sure if you'd consider it 'cheap', but it's not terribly expensive. You can get a 24 pack of 2x2' 2" thick wedgies for about $100 online. You don't need to cover the entire wall surface really, just enough of it to get to a level of dampening you feel is good for you. For traps, I was going to get some RealTraps, but then someone pointed me at ReadyAcoustics.com. They sell DIY versions of the traps and the 703 insulation for way less than you'd pay for pre-fab ones. For a couple hundred bucks, you can put together either 2 6" or 3 4" thick ones. You just have to put them together yourself, which is no big deal. RealTraps doesn't even sell 6" ones I don't think. But a single 4" one is $300 plus shipping. So I did one set of 2 6" ones and one set of 3 4" ones. That'll cover the two corners behind the speakers, the side wall/ceiling corners, and one for use somewhere else that it provides the most benefit, probably the wall/ceiling corner behind the speakers. I'll do some more as I get the funds. I've got about 50% coverage of the rear and side walls with Auralex, which doesn't completely deaden it but it helps a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted October 9, 2007 Author Members Share Posted October 9, 2007 Apparently you've made a full recovery, ya damn troublemaker!!!! Dean, thanks for the Auralex idea. That seems purty cheap, actually. I'm thinking that we'd blow maybe up to $200 on the foam so we can make it sound decent. I'm not expecting miracles, but if we can tame those damn cymbals and some of the mids, I'd be purty happy with the results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John Sayers Posted October 9, 2007 Members Share Posted October 9, 2007 Ken - I'd buy Owens Corning 703 or Roxul AFB or Johns Mansville Any of the above are better than auralex. cheersjohn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted October 9, 2007 Moderators Share Posted October 9, 2007 I know you know all the info on 703 board etc. So... since you're not mentioning that, I take it you want really cheap. If that's the case, try Markertek's cheap stuff. It's not great but will work for what you're intending it to do. http://www.markertek.com/SearchProduct.asp?item=MF%2D3&off=45&sort=prod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted October 9, 2007 Moderators Share Posted October 9, 2007 Cross post with John. Actually maybe you could swing the 703 with these... http://www.readyacoustics.com/index.php?go=products.products&cat=10 Low cost bags for the 703. They say bass traps but they're full bandwith absorption depending on placement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blackpig Posted October 9, 2007 Members Share Posted October 9, 2007 With regard to the egg boxes, cardboard ones work much better than styrofoam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 For traps, I was going to get some RealTraps, but then someone pointed me at ReadyAcoustics.com. They sell DIY versions of the traps and the 703 insulation for way less than you'd pay for pre-fab ones. For a couple hundred bucks, you can put together either 2 6" or 3 4" thick ones. You just have to put them together yourself, which is no big deal. RealTraps doesn't even sell 6" ones I don't think. But a single 4" one is $300 plus shipping. Not to bash Ready Acoustics - those bags look cool and I'm sure they're useful, and I'm even considering buying some myself... but in fairness to Real Traps, there IS a significant difference between the two products. I'll let Ethan Winer know about this thread so he can fill everyone in on the specifics / details if he wants, but it is my understanding that the Ready Acoustics bags are merely fabric bags that you insert OC 703 / 705 fiberglass into. Yes, they recommend using packing tape to hold the two (or more) sheets of 4'X2' fiberglass together to make insertion into the bags easier, and that tape probably also helps a tiny bit with the rigidity of the sides / corners of the completed traps, but it's still fiberglass in a cloth bag. And the prices for DIY bags are definitely less than if you have them (Ready Acoustics) assemble the traps for you. Real Traps are not DIY - they're pre-assembled. Additionally, they have metal reinforced side edges. Also, they're not just constructed solely from compressed fiberglass - they also include a membrane absorber, which should (in theory) increase their effectiveness at taming low frequencies. Like I said, I think both are cool products, but comparing the two is not a direct apples vs apples comparison, and IMO, the price reflects (no pun intended ) those differences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 Ken, if you're on a tight budget, AND if you want something that will last, you might want to steer clear of foam. I've got to redo a bunch of stuff that is crumbling and falling apart on me. Auralex foam seems to do much better in terms of longevity, but the "cheap stuff" seems to crumble and fall apart pretty fast, and I'll never go that route again. Then again, if I hadn't inherited this cheap stuff when we bought the studio, I wouldn't have it to begin with... The other problem with foam is similar to using carpeting - it's not going to do any good at absorbing the low / low mid frequency ranges. Add nothing but foam to the room and the sound becomes very unbalanced, with an over-damped top end and an uncontrolled mid / low frequency range. IMO, not good. The Ready Acoustics bags might be a good solution for you - IIRC, they also have 2" bags, which would do well for helping to control mid / high frequency reflections... add a few of the 4" or 6" bags for the corners / bass end absorption and call it good. Or just buy some Auralex mineral wool (sometimes it's even cheaper than 703) and some permeable fabric (burlap, etc) and DIY. Ethan has some plans for DIY corner bass traps over on his site. Fiberglass and mineral wool are more effective than foam, the absorption extends lower for a given thickness (2" semi-rigid compressed fiberglass vs 2" foam) and will outlast it by a long shot. It might be a touch more expensive, but it's worth it IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted October 10, 2007 Author Members Share Posted October 10, 2007 Damn, you people rule. Major props. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nat whilk II Posted October 10, 2007 Members Share Posted October 10, 2007 Yeah, like Phil said, Ethan is your go-to guy on this topic. I especially like his lo-tech traps consisting of rolls of insulation stacked in the corners as deep and high as you like.... nat whilk ii Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cry Logic Posted October 10, 2007 Members Share Posted October 10, 2007 I used carpet in my home studio.Found a good deal on offcutsand leftovers on ebay.Various lengths and different thickness etc etc The carpet had been stored rolled up in a shed for sometime,so the rolls were like, embedded into the carpet.... made it kinda wavey... I just put it up on the walls with the wavey bits going in and out....Stapled it to the walls then hung curtain cloth over it.... Works really well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dean Roddey Posted October 10, 2007 Members Share Posted October 10, 2007 I kind of look at foam and bass traps as addressing two different things. Unless you are going to cover the whole thing in bass traps, you still need to reduce the higher frequency liveness of the room if it's mostly just bare walls. The bass traps will generally just cover wall/wall and wall/ceiling corners, so there's still a lot of wall exposed that will bounce back higher frequencies. So I went for about half and half coverage of the walls with foam (plus curtains on the front/back wall over the top of the foam) and I'll be putting bass traps at the usual intersection points. Between the two, that should make for a pretty good studio room. Not utterly dead, but with pretty good control of both high and low frequencies. Of course I'm not an accoustician and I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ready Acoustics Posted October 10, 2007 Members Share Posted October 10, 2007 Hey All, Thanks for the props. Just to be clear, Ready Acoustics offers a proprietary frame on our Chameleon Bass Traps. Check them out here: https://www.readyacoustics.com/index.php?go=products.configure-chameleon-bass-traps You can custom build your own using the Bass Trap Builder utility on that page, save LOADS of money and get better performance than traps costing a lot more. Check out our complete report from RiverBank Acoustical Labs on the Acoustic Data page as well. Also, to be clear, you can build you own finish/factory-grade bass traps using our DIY Acoustic Frames. The frames are top quality, proprietary design and powder-coated with 6 colors to choose from. Here is an example of a custom built bass trap (using our frames and the contractor's fabric choice) for James Earl Jones: This 48"x24"x4" Panel cost a total of $50 to make using our Acoustic Frames, OC703 and some inexpensive fabric. Now, if you are going to make bass traps on your own, I recommend making them broadband, and not narrow band. Here is a tutorial for making your own bass traps that mirrors the StudioTips SCA build that was created many years ago: These DIY bass traps work very well and can be made easily using locally sourced materials. I hope this post is informative and answers some question folks may have about Ready Acoustic products as well as how to truly build your own. Good luck all, ~ Joel DuBay ReadyAcoustics.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members D Charles Posted October 10, 2007 Members Share Posted October 10, 2007 Say Ken, the drop ceiling will take care of most of your hi and low treble and high mids, what you need is low mid and high and low bass absorbed. You might also think about building a shield around the cymbals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators MrKnobs Posted October 10, 2007 Moderators Share Posted October 10, 2007 The other problem with foam is similar to using carpeting - it's not going to do any good at absorbing the low / low mid frequency ranges. Add nothing but foam to the room and the sound becomes very unbalanced, with an over-damped top end and an uncontrolled mid / low frequency range. IMO, not good. Foam will absorb low end and eliminate bass modes in the room, but it has to be very thick foam. I'm an acoustics researcher for a living and I've measured the in room effect of some of these products being discussed. For example, I'm not a fan of Auralex LENRDs, which are 1 ft deep wedges made for mounting in the corners. IN MY OPINION, they simply don't absorb enough low frequency energy to serve well as bass traps in a small room - even if you put them basically everywhere. However, Auralex MegaLENRDS, with are 2 ft on a side do a very good job of bass trapping with a reasonable number of wedges - better than Ethan's RealTraps in terms of bass mode reduction at frequencies around 100 Hz and lower. I think Ethan now makes some larger traps that may be better, but I've not tried them yet. Where Ethan's traps shine is in not absorbing so much high end as foam. They do remove some of the bass buildup in a room while not making the room completely dead. However, you need a lot of them to do the job and they do take up some room since they must be spaced away from the wall to work properly - and that gets expensive. My preferred solution is some of each. I have MegaLENRDs in the corners, and some of Ethan's panel absorbers suspended from the ceiling and on one of the flat walls. I have a small control room at home and not much room for many more of them. Nevertheless, I've succeeded at getting my control room substantially more neutral than it was, very much into the acceptable range, both as measured with instruments and as evidenced by my projects taken to the mastering room and heard there. I'm happy. Foam is not inherently a bad product. It's received a bad name because it's misused more often than not, with people commonly covering large portions of their studio walls with 1 inch foam which won't do anything about bass modes but will make the room sound very dead, which is not desireable. It's the misuse of thin foam that gives foam a bad name. Also, there is foam and there is foam. Acoustic quality foam is open celled, which would cause your death if you used it in a life jacket but is essential for audio applications. Auralex makes very high quality acoustic foam in terms of safety (fire), longevity (Sonex turns to mush sooner in my experience) and acoustic performance. At work I have not only an anechoic chamber but a fancy device called an impedance tube. Impedance tubes are used to measure either the transmission loss or absorption / reflection coefficients of various materials. In other words, you can insert a material under test into the tube and determine how much it "soundproofs" and/or how much energy it absorbs at any and all frequencies in the audio portion of the spectrum. We use Auralex foam both as calibration material and as test material. Auralex acoustic foam has excellent broadband absorption properties that can provide substantial reduction of noise down to very low frequencies, provided the foam is thick enough. I would be happy to share some photos of our equipment in operation, and the results of the foam testing here if anyone is interested. Primarily we test new permeable paving materials that are being used to reduce urban traffic noise, but acoustic foam is a good calibration material and we use it every day. Terry D. P.S. A couple of my relevant publications on the subject (for the technically inclined and curious) can be found here: http://www.utexas.edu/research/ctr/pdf_reports/0_5185_1.pdf http://www.utexas.edu/research/ctr/pdf_reports/0_5185_2.pdf Another report detailing the development of the impedance tube procedure for this specific purpose (and showing our anechoic and reverberant chambers) can be found here: http://www.utexas.edu/research/ctr/pdf_reports/2957_1.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John Sayers Posted October 10, 2007 Members Share Posted October 10, 2007 Ken - there are foams and there are foams. Auralex foam is the correct foam in that it has the major ingredient "Fireproof" Your standard foam is not fireproof and can be hazardous if ignited. I actually had a house fire caused by a foam mattress literally exploding into flame when it fell onto a heater near it. Knowing your past I suspect that factor may be important to you. I seal off all ceiling insulation treatment with a layer of plastic. This stops the fine dust generated by loud music from falling all over the gear. It also keeps the high frequencies active. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members M-1 Fan Posted October 10, 2007 Members Share Posted October 10, 2007 I use carpet backing. Real cheap! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted October 10, 2007 Author Members Share Posted October 10, 2007 Your standard foam is not fireproof and can be hazardous if ignited. I actually had a house fire caused by a foam mattress literally exploding into flame when it fell onto a heater near it. Knowing your past I suspect that factor may be important to you. Yeah, John, you got that right!! We're definitely going for something that's not flammable, that's for sure!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ethan Winer Posted October 10, 2007 Members Share Posted October 10, 2007 A friend of mine sent me this: http://www.foambymail.com/Pyramid.html Run, do not walk, away from Foam by Mail. See this: www.ethanwiner.com/fraud.html Thanks also to Phil for explaining the advantage of RealTraps over all other brands. Not to turn this into an advertisement, but our traps have a very specific curve of absorption versus frequency that is unique among treatment vendors. The membrane is semi-reflective at mid and high frequencies, which lets you put enough traps in a room to truly solve the low end problems, but without making the room too dead as can happen with foam and plain fiberglass. Our metal frame is also unique, and offers a large amount of "connectivity" on the rear. You may see other companies selling cheap knock-offs of our traps and frames, but they are not the same and are definitely not as good. --Ethan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members alphajerk Posted October 10, 2007 Members Share Posted October 10, 2007 i like a couple tapestries hanging and some plush chairs about, couch or two.... thats usually been enough for a rehearsal room for bands i used to play in. basicalyl enough to break up the consistent wallspace/reflections. plus cool carpets have a nice visual appeal. i know its not the "PRO" thing to do... but it is just a practice space right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kendrix Posted October 10, 2007 Members Share Posted October 10, 2007 Im not sure why folks think 703 is expensive. From a builders supply firm here in Rochester I am able to get 4' X 2' 703 panels for just a few bucks each. Ive got a dozen or so that I've covered with fabric adn that I move around to suit the circumstance. So if cheap is how you want to go - ive found this to be useful. I hung a double thick cloud from the ceiling over my desk and got a huge improvement in imaging and clarity form my monitors ( those refletions off the desk really are horrrible). If you double these up and mount them several inches from the wall they absorb fairly well down to about 250 Hz or so. If you want to trap frequencies lower than that you need a real bass trap. If you want to trap bass and not deaden things across the frequency range then i'd go with Ethans product. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dean Roddey Posted October 10, 2007 Members Share Posted October 10, 2007 But most of us aren't builders, and it's really only sold by places that either sell it to construction folks or that sell bass traps. 6 sheets of 2" 2x4 703 from Ready is $80, plus it's fairly expensive to ship because of the size. I looked around and there wasn't really any option here in the area. I called Corning to check and they verified that there wasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members franknputer Posted October 10, 2007 Members Share Posted October 10, 2007 I heard about these guys recently - haven't tried them myself, but I have been considering it. http://www.gikacoustics.com/products.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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