Members techristian Posted April 13, 2016 Members Posted April 13, 2016 Really? Supposedly ripped off a Spirit song. http://m.voanews.com/a/mht-led-zeppelin-stairway-to-heaven-plagiarism-spirit-taurus/3281097.html
Members onelife Posted April 13, 2016 Members Posted April 13, 2016 I think they stole the chord progression from a section of George Harrison's "Something" but I don't think George would sue if he were here today. In reality, it's much like the "My Sweet Lord" - which Harrison admitted was inspired by The Edwin Hawkins Singers "Oh Happy Day" - and "He's So Fine". One was a big hit and the other one wasn't. The minor chord with the chromatically descending bottom note is very common. I doubt if very many people would know about "Taurus" or "He's So Fine" if it wasn't for the later hits.
Members onelife Posted April 13, 2016 Members Posted April 13, 2016 Here's Ian Anderson's take on a similar situation he found himself in. [video=youtube;xny0Uj4--tk] "It's not plagiarism it's just the same chord sequence… and it's a very very fine song they wrote."
Members kbeaumont Posted April 13, 2016 Members Posted April 13, 2016 Jimmy Page is a well known plagairist. Though Led Zeppelin often based its music around songs by American bluesmen, the band's song "Dazed & Confused" was actually taken from Jake Holmes, an American folk singer that Jimmy Page's previous band the Yardbirds played with in 1967. Holmes finally sued Page for copyright infringement in 2010. One instance of blatant plagiarism that the members of Led Zeppelin were never sued over was Physical Graffiti's epic "In My Time of Dying." The song was credited to all four members of the band, despite the fact that it's a well-known traditional gospel song that has been covered by many people, including Bob Dylan. The lyrics of Since I've Been Lovin' You are taken almost word for word from a Moby Grape song called Never. There dozens of examples of blues songs they covered and claimed Jimmy Page & Robert Plant as authors. They particularly like stealing from Willie Dixon. http://www.showbiz411.com/2013/10/10/led-zeppelin-greatest-song-thieves-in-rock-history-nominated-for-songwriters-hall-of-fame
Phil O'Keefe Posted April 13, 2016 Posted April 13, 2016 I think they stole the chord progression from a section of George Harrison's "Something" but I don't think George would sue if he were here today. In reality, it's much like the "My Sweet Lord" - which Harrison admitted was inspired by The Edwin Hawkins Singers "Oh Happy Day" - and "He's So Fine". One was a big hit and the other one wasn't. The minor chord with the chromatically descending bottom note is very common. I doubt if very many people would know about "Taurus" or "He's So Fine" if it wasn't for the later hits. He's So Fine was actually a very big hit - a chart topper. I was a huge Beatles fan, and they're more "my era" than He's So Fine, but even as a kid I was certainly aware of the later even before Harrison released All Things Must Pass and My Sweet Lord. Oh Happy Day was also quite a big hit - it hit the top five in the USA. The late 60s Edwin Hawkins Singers hit was a rearrangement of a 1800s era hymn. Harrison admitted it was an influence on MSW, but it was in the public domain by then, so that was considered completely fair game. The lawsuit over HSF was another matter, and he lost that one - they called it "unconscious plagiarism."
Phil O'Keefe Posted April 13, 2016 Posted April 13, 2016 Jimmy Page is a well known plagairist. Though Led Zeppelin often based its music around songs by American bluesmen, the band's song "Dazed & Confused" was actually taken from Jake Holmes, an American folk singer that Jimmy Page's previous band the Yardbirds played with in 1967. Holmes finally sued Page for copyright infringement in 2010. One instance of blatant plagiarism that the members of Led Zeppelin were never sued over was Physical Graffiti's epic "In My Time of Dying." The song was credited to all four members of the band, despite the fact that it's a well-known traditional gospel song that has been covered by many people, including Bob Dylan. The lyrics of Since I've Been Lovin' You are taken almost word for word from a Moby Grape song called Never. There dozens of examples of blues songs they covered and claimed Jimmy Page & Robert Plant as authors. They particularly like stealing from Willie Dixon. http://www.showbiz411.com/2013/10/10/led-zeppelin-greatest-song-thieves-in-rock-history-nominated-for-songwriters-hall-of-fame How about Black Mountain Side / Down By Blackwaterside? [video=youtube;5G3tN6Qte3U] [video=youtube;f5Gcu0Sv6lk]
Members Dendy Jarrett Posted April 13, 2016 Members Posted April 13, 2016 Wouldn't a statute of limitations apply here since so much time has passed?
Members davd_indigo Posted April 13, 2016 Members Posted April 13, 2016 Chord progressions/western harmony are something like arithmetic. People discovered things like multiplying fractions. The "Something" by G.Harrison has a progression that has a tone descending in half-steps. "Stairway" by Zeppelin has the descending half step - BUT over over a minor chord instead of a major. I contend that you canNOT, or at least should not be able to claim invention in these cases. I'm thinking that people on a jury, and the lawyers involved, would not know this. Hell, even many musicians wouldn't know or understand this. I contend you can't invent what is a discovery in a harmonic progression. Otherwise, maybe the guy who wrote "Louis Louis" could claim he invented the chord progression because it has a minor V chord. In other words (in the key of A) A major to D major to E minor (although this could probably be found if one could only find it). I remember hearing about some software copyright infringement case that was reported on a few years ago. They said the issues involved were too arcane for the average person to understand without expertise. I'd say this is a similar situation. But it appears that someone now can claim he invented some piece of music by choosing to arrange it... with a cowbell and a tambourine. It's the clothes that the arrangers chose to dress the melody and chord progressions in. Not the melody and chords themselves. But as I said in a post sometime ago, music has been dumbed down for the average mass consumer. 4 chords, repeated over and over again can be called an invention, worthy of copyrighting. Someone needs to codify requirements for copyrighting. And I really wish some musicology wonk would comb through Bach and find these progressions. I'm sure they are there. There are many possibilities in chord progressions and voice leading. The descending half step could also be in an inner voice. But still not an invention - a discovery inherent in the possibilities western harmony presents. Maybe one should be required to create a melody with a certain number of notes with a specific rhythm pattern - to be copyrightable. Not just convince a clueless jury of infringement.
Members nat whilk II Posted April 13, 2016 Members Posted April 13, 2016 Most of these disputes get settled out of court. When in court, if it's a copyright issue, then something has to be actually copied. If George Harrison could have proven that he never heard, never "had access" to He's So Fine, then he could not have copied it, even if his independent creation was exactly like someone else's tune. And I think the issue here also revolves around someone being actually harmed economically by the borrowing/stealing. So courts often try to use an "average listener" criteria to determine if the two songs at issue are "alike" in their perception. So it's not a close musical analysis - it's an average person's impression, a recognition issue. Someone may try to make a reasoned, musical analysis part of their case, but I'm not sure that carries much weight with judges and juries. Not because the judges/juries are ignorant, but because they are trying to assess the average listener's recognition of the similarities involved, and degree of similarity. It's obviously in lots of cases going to be a judgement call that can go either way. The courts are trying to use a common sense approach much of the time it seems to me. Paul Simon's American Tune is obviously a very near copy of the old hymn O Sacred Head Now Wounded. Anyone can hear the similarity. If the old hymn had not been in the public domain, Simon would have been easily sued. But when the similarity is partial or fleeting - who knows what a judge or jury will decide? Better to settle out of court than gamble on that. nat whilk ii
Members 1001gear Posted April 13, 2016 Members Posted April 13, 2016 Seems the Justice system is a concession to ' you can't trust a human' What a concept; two hordes of untrustworthy humans in civil warfare may the winner be the winner. You have a game of lies, lyes, lyed truth, true lies - I ain't no lawyarr I know I missed a bunch.Taurus (the Bull - I presume) vs Aleistairway to Heaven. So maybe they just settle. A sordid alliance but nunnuh my business. Or, and this is the part I have a problem with, it goes in front of a jury. Yep members of that lying species - who are asked to at best, guess - or worse, do as contracted. Either way throwing THEIR souls onto the scales satisfying a requirement unknown to me. I like the Zeppelin tune better.
Members onelife Posted April 13, 2016 Members Posted April 13, 2016 Alan Klein got involved in that business as well. Harrison eventually bought the entire Bright Tunes catalogue. I did not know "He's So Fine" was a big hit. I had never consciously heard the song before the lawsuit and thought it was only a minor hit.
Members onelife Posted April 13, 2016 Members Posted April 13, 2016 "Something" has the descending chromatic line over Am in the second part of the verse. It even goes all the way down to F (like Stairway) to get back to the guitar riff. You can play the intro to "Stairway" over the part where George sings "don't want to leave her now... "
Members davd_indigo Posted April 13, 2016 Members Posted April 13, 2016 If what you say about - it's an average person's impression, a recognition issue - is what the legal system (by no means a justice system) is what's going on, I'd say the legal system needs to be redesigned. I know this will never happen, but maybe Google (yes, the technology behemoth) should redesign our legal system. There's way too much opinion involved in our legal system. While these opinions are being considered, massive legal incomes are being generated. - Common sense - is a ridiculous premise IMO. Copyright infringement should have measurable criteria. I feel like I'm in the minority here.
Members 1001gear Posted April 13, 2016 Members Posted April 13, 2016 Trials are all about money and firepower not justice.
Members onelife Posted April 14, 2016 Members Posted April 14, 2016 "It's as much yours as it is ours" [video=youtube;mhf4hEGMr1w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhf4hEGMr1w It's actually kind of sad to watch this video. Not Jimmy's best performance.
Members 1001gear Posted April 14, 2016 Members Posted April 14, 2016 Aspirin doesn't work. What codec are they using?
Members Anderton Posted April 16, 2016 Members Posted April 16, 2016 I have the perfect solution: the suit is settled under the condition that "Stairway to Heaven" is never played in a Guitar Center store. As to ripping people off, I think it's terrible the way all those black blues guys ripped off the Rolling Stones. Shameful. Anyway, it's interesting that "When the Levee Breaks" is public domain so they can't be accused of stealing anything. But if you listen to the original, there's no question Led Zeppelin made it their own. [video=youtube;swhEa8vuP6U]
Members Anderton Posted April 16, 2016 Members Posted April 16, 2016 And if you want a hilarious video about how you can put a whole bunch of different stuff over the same chord progression, check out "The Most Stolen Song in the History of Music!" [video=youtube;VTnuGkZgaMc]
Members Anderton Posted April 16, 2016 Members Posted April 16, 2016 And a more serious view of copying...a documentary on the Top 10 music copying lawsuits. I love the one where John Fogerty was sued for sounding like John Fogerty. [video=youtube;1GWMvCXdsG4] BTW I give major credit to Kraftwerk for not suing Coldplay over copying the main riff in "Computer Love" note-for-note. BTW someone claimed on the net (so it MUST be true, right?) that Coldplay asked if it was okay to use the riff, and Kraftwerk basically said "sure, thanks for asking, not like that bastard Jay-Z." [video=youtube;7PzPiQ3VF74]
Members onelife Posted April 16, 2016 Members Posted April 16, 2016 Anyway' date=' it's interesting that "When the Levee Breaks" is public domain so they can't be accused of stealing anything. But if you listen to the original, there's no question Led Zeppelin made it their own.[/quote'] The same can be said for what George Harrison did with "He's' So Fine." As George put it, My Sweet Lord was a very good record and I concur. It must have been frustrating for him to be a songwriter in a band with John Lennon and Paul McCartney and, when he finally breaks out on his own with a monster hit, end up in court over it. I love the one where John Fogerty was sued for sounding like John Fogerty. That just blew me away. When I first started recording, there were a few cases where the band broke up before the project was finished. The question then became "who gets the tapes?" At first the answer seemed obvious "whoever was paying for the sessions." Once I got to the point of recording some very good songs I realized that the whole thing starts with the songs and that the songwriter was a very important part of the process. Before everything went digital I adopted a policy of giving the tapes of the songs to the person who wrote the songs. On a brighter note... I don't recall the details but there was a story of a recording that was owned by a someone other than the songwriter that did not do so well commercially. After some time had passed, the writer wanted to buy his songs back just because they were his songs and the owners complied. One of the songs later became a big hit and the writer owned 100% of the copyright.
Members AlamoJoe Posted April 18, 2016 Members Posted April 18, 2016 I wonder if it has simply gotten to the point that are simply no more roads to explore musically. If so much music has been written and recorded that there are no more mathematical combinations of rhythm and melody that have not already been combined. I only speak for myself, but all the music I've ever heard and loved permeates every thing I do musically, and it is really hard to not throw in this or that in everything I do.
Members onelife Posted April 18, 2016 Members Posted April 18, 2016 I only speak for myself' date=' but all the music I've ever heard and loved permeates every thing I do musically, and it is really hard to not throw in this or that in everything I do.[/quote'] I know what you mean. I can't write original songs for that very reason. I have gone so far as to record something I thought was original only to discover later that I lifted the melody from some obscure album track that I listened to when I was in high school. I do know some people who are prolific writers. I once recorded a thirteen song demo for a guy who told me he didn't write songs, he found them. I took my DX7 to one of the sessions and let him take it home afterwords. He got inspired by the sound of one of the patches and came back the next day with a new and really good song. On another occasion he was late and the drummer, bass player and I were jamming when he showed up. He said "what's that?" and I replied "just something we made up." He walked up to the microphone and started singing. When we stopped he sat down ad scribbled out a bunch of words and we had another song for the project. As a lead guitar player, my library of influences serves me well. If I can quote Jeff Beck and Jimi Hendrix in the same song or play some octave thing I got from Wes Montgomery it actually works. Sometimes in my trio we'll do an extended jam at the end of a song and I'll fill it up with familiar guitar hooks and get several thumbs up from the audience. Just as Beethoven took what Mozart was doing up a couple of notches and Hendrix showed us how to use a Stratocaster, I'm confident that music will be served and advanced by more genius in the future. We can't imagine what it will be or we would be doing it.
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