Encouragement sought from "Gibson guys" - I think I hate my Les Paul?

[DeepEnd]

Basically' date=' if someone is complaining about how a guitar over all feels like crap to them, a good thing to check is the intonation because [b']that's the only thing I know how to post.[/b] It does not matter what the problem really is, I will still post about intonation.

 

Also, I make the unwarranted assumption that most guitarists don't know how to set up a guitar, actually. They know how to do what they think of as "Set up" but in reality there is a million miles between their guitar and what I consider an actual set up, which is fiddling with the intonation whether it's necessary or not.

^ Fixed. Now, I'll say it again: Poor intonation doesn't account for what the OP is experiencing. Period. Try again.

 

. . . I often wonder if the fact that Leo was not a guitarist so went out and asked guitarists what they wanted was what made the strat so good. I'm not sure that sustain was so much of an issue in 1954 music or Guess he would have factored that in too.

Since Les Paul was not only a guitarist but a darn good one, you'd think he'd be able to design a decent guitar. My suspicion is that he was obsessed with making something that actually looked like an acoustic guitar and that colored his outlook. A Strat, by comparison, looks sorta like a blob out of a 50's SF flick.

[Danhedonia]

I'm not a luthier, but I am a former pro music person with enough tour experience that I trust my set ups. I do appreciate the thoughts -- the intonation is ALWAYS so irritating to me with newly purchased guitars that I set them up right away. Without making this about my history, be assured that my setups are, basically, better than those of most "pros."

 

And I lost 30 lbs earlier this year and so not feeling a tummy issue.

 

No, it's as most of you said: it's just ... not what I'm used to. I have to do some stuff this week but will redo the setup (incl. new strings and feeler gauges up and down the fretboard) this weekend and see if that helps. If not, perhaps the Burstbuckers (which were $96 the pair - sitting collecting dust at the moment).

 

And if I still can't make friends - Steve, $700 would about cover it.

 

It's too "fat" for me. Fat sound; fat body; fat neck. I'm saddened, because the meatiness in the lower mids sounds siiiiiiiiiiiiiick (hahahah @ jam band fans) through a good germanium fuzz, but let's be serious, if you have 20 guitars you love you're not going to keep banging your head against the wall just because something looks great and .... well, uh, maybe I am going to bang my head against the wall.

[t_e_l_e]

if it just looks good but does not play right to you, why not just hang it on the wall and enjoy it from there?

[onelife]

It's too "fat" for me. Fat sound; fat body; fat neck. I'm saddened' date=' because the meatiness in the lower mids sounds siiiiiiiiiiiiiick (hahahah @ jam band fans) through a good germanium fuzz, but let's be serious, if you have 20 guitars you love you're not going to keep banging your head against the wall just because something looks great and .... well, uh, maybe I am going to bang my head against the wall.[/quote']

 

My main gigging guitars for many years were a Stratocaster and either a Les Paul or a 335.

 

I loved the clarity and sparkle of the strat but found that, for some material, I really had to work at it to get the sound I wanted. I'd switch over to the Gibson for a while with its warm, fat growly tone and ease of playing but it didn't clean up as well as the strat. Eventually I would switch back to the strat and the cycle would continue.

 

I can understand how a player who stuck with strats and teles could find a Les Paul too fat and I can also understand how a someone who played LPs and 335s could find a strat somewhat anaemic.

 

I've been playing a couple of teles for the last five years and find them to be a nice bridge between the two but I still dig out my LP from time to time and really enjoy the robust tones from it.

 

 

 

[WRGKMC]

 

 

I can understand how a player who stuck with strats and teles could find a Les Paul too fat and I can also understand how a someone who played LPs and 335s could find a strat somewhat anaemic.

 

I've been playing a couple of teles for the last five years and find them to be a nice bridge between the two but I still dig out my LP from time to time and really enjoy the robust tones from it.

 

I was in that boat for a long time. My first Gold top Deluxe I bought new in the 70's had mini humbuckers and compared to something like a Custom with Fat humbuckers. I liked the way the Minis could produce mids and had a better balance to my ears. I also had a Tele then and I'd switch back and forth between songs. The tele would cut through but lacked the rock tones I could get from the Paul. Something like the Vintage Jag I owned for awhile was even more anemic.

 

One day I was jamming and a buddy who worked at a music store brought by a new Strat. It was the first stock model had a 5 way switch and he let me play it for a few songs and my opinion of fenders turned around on that day. Before that I was mostly a Gibson guy. I had owned a Vintage Firebird, ES335, Paul and SG, and none of the Fenders I had played up to that point could compare to the quality of a Gibson till I played that one Strat.

 

Over the next 40 years I've learned there loads of lemons being sold today, many of which don't come close to the reputation they should have. Luckily there are plenty of great guitars that don't cost a bank roll and a wide enough variety to suit anyone's needs.

 

If you don't like the feel or tone of a guitar don't let the price tag fool you. Few people like to admit they spent too much on something they bought on impulse, but they cant fool themselves for long. Its always good to give a piece of gear a fair chance and keep an open mind. That's a very important key to music. Even if it doesn't wind up being your #1 instrument you play all the time, you will likely work with musicians who have adopted it and having some idea of the instruments abilities can help you get the best tones from your own.

 

With time and experience you should learn to take any instrument and get the best tones from it and use it creatively. You may find something unique to your playing style you gravitate towards, but don't limit yourself. Many instruments can sound weak, thin, overly fat when played solo. Put that same instrument in a mix with another guitar and it may hit the perfect tones within that mix or recording when you have that second guitar to contrast it to. If you play mostly three piece then you may need to have something that versatile just so the audience doesn't get bored to death. When you mix as a Strat and Paul together on stage or on a recording, you can have much better tonal separation then you would both playing the same guitar and fighting for those same frequencies and clashing.

[Floyd Rosenbomb]

I'm not a luthier, but I am a former pro music person with enough tour experience that I trust my set ups. I do appreciate the thoughts -- the intonation is ALWAYS so irritating to me with newly purchased guitars that I set them up right away. Without making this about my history, be assured that my setups are, basically, better than those of most "pros."

 

 

That's great. I don't understand why DeepEnd has been such a pissy bitch about what I posted.

It's pretty simple really. If someone says "my gutiar does not feel good, and it doesn't sound good" it is a pretty simple step to ask "have you checked the intonation?" The reason is that it is like playing a guitar that is out of tune. It will not ever feel good or sound good if the intonation is off. That fact offends DeepEnd, but oh well, ...F-em. My intention was honest with a mind toward helpfulness.

 

Other things to think about once one is sure the intonation is right is of course the rest of the set up. With the seasons changing truss rods need a check, it never hurts to consder pickup heights, and perhaps even adjust some taken for granted settings on a amp. If we go down this path, and we are certain that the guitar is set up and yet we still find that the guitar is not clicking for us, then it is pretty clear that it's time to write up a craigslist or Ebay post moving the guitar along. You can get into pickup swaps, but I'd never go through the trouble of doing that on a guitar that I did not like the feel of.

Best.

[DeepEnd]

That's great. I don't understand why DeepEnd has been such a pissy bitch about what I posted. . . .

DeepEnd has been a "pissy bitch" because you gave advice that wouldn't solve the OP's problem. That makes three times I've said the same thing. If he had tuning issues, sure, but he doesn't. He doesn't like the shape of the guitar. It lacks sustain. The pickups don't sound right. He doesn't like the neck profile. An intonation adjustment won't do anything for any of these except maybe--and I stress maybe--if the guitar just generally sounds "off" it will make a diference. But that's all. You're batting maybe .120 at best and going downhill fast. The nasty PM you sent me shows you're losing the battle. FWIW, I like you too. Give up while you can still see daylight.

[Chordite]

 

Since Les Paul was not only a guitarist but a darn good one, you'd think he'd be able to design a decent guitar. My suspicion is that he was obsessed with making something that actually looked like an acoustic guitar and that colored his outlook. A Strat, by comparison, looks sorta like a blob out of a 50's SF flick.

It looked like a blob out of a 50's SF movie because it was the future . I think you are right about Les outlook, when you consider the music he liked and designed his guitar to play, it makes sense that he would come up with that, whereas Leo went for common denominators and had no musical objective of his own. It was kind of a coachbuilt craftsman approach vs a Ford approach.

Design didn't always get used as intended. Les didn't have Slash in mind and I don't think many people ended up using Leo's "tremolo" bar to imitate Hawaiian steel as he intended.

Somewhere in the middle, although it is not the worlds most popular design, I have never heard anyone be anything but complementary about the SG and I know a couple of R&B people who won't play anything else.

[DeepEnd]

. . . Somewhere in the middle' date=' although it is not the worlds most popular design, I have never heard anyone be anything but complementary about the SG and I know a couple of R&B people who won't play anything else.[/quote']

A guy I knew in college had a cherry red SG, a '65 IIRC. I'd love to have one myself. If I ever get into electric seriously I might look into the Epiphone version.

[knotty]

DeepEnd has been a "pissy bitch" because you gave advice that wouldn't solve the OP's problem. That makes three times I've said the same thing. If he had tuning issues, sure, but he doesn't. He doesn't like the shape of the guitar. It lacks sustain. The pickups don't sound right. He doesn't like the neck profile. An intonation adjustment won't do anything for any of these except maybe--and I stress maybe--if the guitar just generally sounds "off" it will make a diference. But that's all. You're batting maybe .120 at best and going downhill fast. The nasty PM you sent me shows you're losing the battle. FWIW, I like you too. Give up while you can still see daylight.

Dont bother. I've been there, he has me on ignore because I had the cheek to have a different opinion. Spoilt kid syndrome that guy.

[Danhedonia]

Ladies, let's be nice!

 

I do truly appreciate all the different thoughts ... because really, I am usually a sucker for just about ANY guitar, whether I crave playing it or not. Sort of a "appreciate everything for what it is" approach (which, btw, is the only way to ever really enjoy wine, but that's another thread ....).

 

I just am disliking that Paul. But Floyd, I hear you - before writing off an instrument, I think I ought to at LEAST redo the set up, and try a few different rigs, etc. Just don't have the time for a few days.

 

OTOH, I'm the sort of dork who can appreciate Schechter's TSH-1 Rick copies and even find something nice to say about Ibanez's $75 3/4 scale kid's guitar. And LPs are starting to flat out feel wrong to me. Meh.

 

[Danhedonia]

I think I've been spending too much time around analog synth repros .... LOLOLOLOL!

[Dr. Scottie C]

Let's not beat around the bush...... Les Paul's suck. period. They are uncomfortable, the 90 degree knife edge body is a killer on your ribs, the weight is completely unbalanced, they weigh as much as a husky 4th grader, the tuning stability blows, ....the list goes on. Compared to a quality strat....LP's feel completely inferior to me....always have and always will.

[AJ6stringsting]

i have an Epi LCP that kick ass all over my Gib LPC !!!!

[AJ6stringsting]

I own V shaped guitars, Jacksons, Gibson Flying V, traditional Strats / 80's type Super Strats and a couple of Les Pauls.

Each guitar offers a different voice for me to use and make me play different.

I got my first Les Paul in 1988, because of the Randy Rhoads / John Sykes influence, I got used to it and loved them equally along side my other guitars.

[soundcreation]

I feel sorry for you people who are so picky about what kind of guitar they play.

 

and some of you must really not know how to pick a good les paul.

 

anyway.....how long does it take to change strings? What's up with that? Did it work or not?

[billybilly]

I'm up late and naked, give me a call...

[Danhedonia]

How long does it take to change strings? Two answers: about 10 minutes max, or about an hour (because often, while I'm doing it, I can't resist looking at the set up again, and I'm fairly meticulous).

 

Me, I decided to change careers in mid life, and I have term-end grades to submit as I learn to be a teacher. It's not like I have nothing to do; and if I have time for music and 15 nice Strats / Teles / Jag / SG / Reverend SHB / JMs staring at me, I tend to deprioritize the restringing of the Paul.

 

YMMV.

 

[knotty]

Sorry, but if you cant commit the time or cant be arsed to change a set of strings, what are we discussing or trying to help with here?

[soundcreation]

How long does it take to change strings? Two answers: about 10 minutes max, or about an hour (because often, while I'm doing it, I can't resist looking at the set up again, and I'm fairly meticulous).

 

Me, I decided to change careers in mid life, and I have term-end grades to submit as I learn to be a teacher. It's not like I have nothing to do; and if I have time for music and 15 nice Strats / Teles / Jag / SG / Reverend SHB / JMs staring at me, I tend to deprioritize the restringing of the Paul.

 

YMMV.

 

 

Then maybe you should have waited to start a thread until you had more time to actually deal with your problem. You obviously thought your "Paul" was important enough to start a thread about right? You wasted valuable playing time writing your thread. I'm sure you've dedicated at least an hour to this thread after the initial post. Sounds about right for your own string change estimation.

 

I mean whatever......it's up to you.....but personally I think it's a little rude to the people trying to help you if you don't have the courtesy to at least do something that basic and report back. It's been a week now.

 

Or maybe this isn't about fixing your problem at all? Maybe you just wanted to rant about Les Pauls? Maybe troll a bit? Attention seek?

[Danhedonia]

Sorry, next time I start a thread, I will check wtih you first.

 

Midol helps.

[soundcreation]

And the emotionally defensive response.....

 

what a surprise...

 

and still no string change....lol

[BB 1977]

I have several les Paul guitars, and personally like the older models. I have a 73 LP standard and a 78 pro with p90s. And the new ones I have played do not compare in the least,they feel cheap. This is simply my opinion. But they have been really cheapened up. I can't believe people will pay that much for them. I have an old Ibanez deluxe 59er with the super70s in it and it smokes my friends 2012 lp standard plus. And I paid 250$ for the Ibanez. And it's a superior guitar. If you like Gibson's my suggestion is to buy an older one. Because the newer ones I have played do not measure up to the older ones.

[Delirium trigger]

The Les Paul is something a lot of people think will be something it's not, then they get one and realize what it is. Now, that's not to say it's a bad thing. I love my Les paul's. However, my ESP guitars that look like Les Paul's play better than any Les Paul. But once you get used to that style of guitar there is a lot you can do with it.

 

I like the 498 pickups. They will sustain well if you are using the right set up. It may NOT be the same pickups if they sound muddy/dark. They may have the burst bucker pickups in them. The burst bucker sounds muddy/dark, which is why I get rid of any them in any Gibson that comes with them. I keep the Gibson's stock that come with 498's.

[GAS Man]

Kid you not, I've bought over 50 Gibsons, so here's a bit of my thoughts on them.

 

Number 1, Gibson guitars do generally get noticeably better the higher you go up the food chain. The guitars you own are closer to entry level guitars, I own both of the guitars you mention. If you really want to get the Gibson thing, I'd suggest dropping some righteous bucks. None of my Gibsons come close to the tone of my '59 RI for depth, vibe and complexity of tone. But obviously, along the way, and between different models, there is some significant lack of correlation between $ spent and good tone.

 

The '50 Tribute LP is not one of my faves. (Although I also bought and own a '60s Tribute - which for some inexplicable reason sounds a little bit better to me) It's got a lot of routing in it which does add a bit of internal acoustic resonance (i.e. slightly more bluesy/acoustic sounding) but the lack of "solid" wood creates a decrease in sustain and depth. The type of body construction, i.e. chambering + LP thick + mahogany, darkens the sound. It's still a good sounding/playing guitar, but it sounds better in a bluesy style, i.e. through a vintage style amp with a decent dose of gain for some grit. Coincidentally, that's also where the SG Special excels. The Specials use the 490R 490T (the 498T is generally used on the SG Standards). Personally I prefer the 490T. It sounds softer to me and creates a wonderful classic rock tone with a basic OD pedal. To me the SG Std with the 498T is better for harder rock to metal with higher gain. I prefer the softer 490T. Even better, I prefer the Burstbuckers for a more complex sound. '57s are even more bright and jangly. But run the SG Special with some gain, say along the level of most CCR tunes.

 

A better guitar IMHO, in that price range is the Gibson '60s Tribute SG. The thinner solid mahogany body on that guitar creates more vibe taking the Gibson flavor a step closer into the Fender territory.

 

Vox, Marshall and Orange amps tend to be pretty good matches with Gibsons (or other similarly voiced amps). For Fender amps, "blues" style amps will work better than black face since the latter is a bit too bassy sounding for Gibsons. More shallow sounding amps will benefit from a Gibson, or Fender amps that have a more early break up.

 

Anyway, just my thoughts.

 

Just do what I do, i.e. lead a fickle relationship of torn loves between the Fender tones and Gibson tones. Heck, tonight i was banging on a Dano. Sometimes I like a very thin, cheap, vibey tone.