Lets build something that looks like an ES-175

[Freeman Keller]

mmmm, seems to be something wrong with that last link but I can't figure out what and as I said before, I've got better things to do than trying to figure out this forums quirks, so lets move ahead Take the whole thing to the router table and cut the truss rod channel

 

Two necks ready for their rods

 

 

Notice how nice and small the cavity for the adjuster is – if you have to have a hole in the headstock this is much stronger

 

 

And trace the headstock shape on. A standard Gibson headstock is like 3-1/4 inches at the widest point – I narrow that down to 3 so it fits my standard width board.

 

 

Its tempting to start carving now but I need straight square sides to make the heel and dovetail so I’ll just put this away and wait for wood….

 

(once again it looks like there is something wrong with one of the images but I sure can't see what it is. If anyone can help me I would appreciate it, otherwise I'll just keep keepin' on)

 

[mrbrown49]

 

Looks like an extra url tag.

 

Loving this thread by the way. Keep up the good work.

 

[Freeman Keller]

Wood is back, time to get moving on this thing. Here is basically what it takes to build a guitar. I buy things like kerfing and the binding cut to size - it would be a total hassle to try to make my own kerfing. Anyway, other than a few shiny parts and odds and ends, here is the wood pile

 

 

First thing to do is clean up the center seam edge of the top with my BFP (big flat plane), taking just the thinnest cut. The hunk of metal is my flat sanding block that I use for frets - I can get the edge pretty true with it

 

 

The trick to a nice tight seam is applying just enough clamping pressure. I put a piece of metal that's about 1/8 thick under the center and clamp the outside edges tight

 

 

When I pull the metal piece out the seam is squeezed tightly together, clamp it down with some heavy weight

 

 

With luck the seam will be almost invisible

[Freeman Keller]

I think I should have talked a bit about the pieces of wood in that pile. The most important is the top wood - these are Lutz spruce from the great PNW. The classic American top wood from before the war was Adirondack ('red") spruce. It was used on all the great Martin and Gibsons from the Golden Era, but the forests have been so badly logged that it is very difficult to get good instrument grade wood. I've settled for some lesser quality (and paid more) for a couple of my builds, but like most everyone else I usually use Sitka spruce. Sitka is not quite as strong (usually measured as stiffness per unit mass) as Adi, but it frequently has beautiful silking and what is called "bear claw". I first heard about Lutz from a seminar by John Greven - he says it is somewhere between Adi and Sitka in terms of stiffness and it is quite reasonable in price. I bought six top sets a couple of years ago and set them away on a shelf in my wine cellar.

 

Secondly is the back and sides - these are Honduran mahogany and have some flame figure, which I thought would follow the general theme. Again, this wood has been stickered away waiting for a project like this. Here are the top and back moisten with a little alcohol to pop the figure - gives you some idea how they will look when finished (unless they get painted red...)

 

 

The rest of the wood in the picture consists of another mahogany neck blank, a couple of billets of spruce for braces, some ebony for headstock pickguard and binding. There is some kerfing and other internal bits - head and tail blocks - a truss rod and some fret wire. I might need some odds and ends out of the scrap box but should build a guitar.

 

Tonight I shot the seam on the back pieces and glued them up like the top

 

 

[kwakatak]

Great lessons, Freeman. It's always a fascinating read to hear one's thinking behind these little structural tricks. I can't wait to see how the decorative stuff comes out later on.

[Ratae Corieltauvorum]

Great informative thread as usual FK, thanks for sharing

[Freeman Keller]

Thank Ratae and Kwak. I'll return to your comment in a minute.

 

While the top is flat I lay out the f-holes

 

 

I was planning to use a follower bit in my little router but didn't have one small enough so I'll just cut them by hand. The little red line is supposed to be a sighting line for the saber saw - doesn't work too well

 

 

Use the template to clean the hole up, I'll finalize it later (still haven't decide to bind the f-holes or not)

 

 

This will do for now

 

[Grant Harding]

Man - I would never have been able to make that sabre saw cut. That top would be in 2 pieces again, at least...

[Surrealistic]

With you there koiwoi. In fact the most adventurous woodworking I ever do involves simple sawing in straight lines; and even then it often ends in tears or hilarity.

 

Enjoy watching others with the skills to do it though. Looking forward to seeing how this turns out.

[knotty]

Some threads are just head and shoulders above the rest.

 

This is one. Thanks.

[Freeman Keller]

Great lessons' date=' Freeman. It's always a fascinating read to hear one's thinking behind these little structural tricks. I can't wait to see how the decorative stuff comes out later on.[/quote']

 

Might be a good time for some left brained lutherie. Most of this is pretty ordinary - I'm expecting problems with the cutaway and the floating fingerboard is new. But the main thing I've been thinking about lately is how to make the top work. Follow, if you will, my thought process.

 

First - what this is NOT. It's not an ES-175, which would have a laminated (yeah, plywood) top pressed into shape under tons of hydraulic pressure. Somewhere on the web there is a video tour of the Gibson plant where they show making this style top. The ES would have large braces in kind of a ladder form to support the pickups. As I have said before, this is not an ES-175

 

It is also not an archtop, altho it does take a few things from that type of instrument. A true archtop would have a top carved out of one thick block of spruce - both the outsides and inside is carved kind of like a shallow bowl. No matter how you make them (by hand, with a duplicator or cnc) there is a heck of a lot of hand work which partially explains why real archtops sell in the five figure range. Typically they have a simple X brace or sometimes just two little braces like this mandolin - the feet of the bridge sit over the brace and it helps dissipate the vibrations into the top

 

 

Also, it is not a pinned bridge flat top, altho again, I'll take a few things from that style bracing. Most steel string flattops use the Martin style X (you know I could talk about this stuff for hours but this is an electric forum). The bridge is under rotational forces from the string tension and wants to pull up in the lower bout and be forced down around the sound hole - the X is a very elegant way to counter these forces. Little braces called "tone bars" allow the builder to modify the stiffness of the top which has a dramatic affect on tone.

 

 

What I want to do here is get a bit more dome than a standard flat top. I want to support that with an X that is will help hold the shape as well as fit under the feet of the bridge to transmit vibration. I'm going to put a transverse brace in the upper bout, again to hold the shape but also because cracks can occur from the neck extension. I think I'll put a very small bridge patch in - not sure why, just seems like a good idea.

 

If that makes sense, lets build it.

[Freeman Keller]

First cut some braces. How about 5/16 wide and 3/4 tall - remember that the strength (stiffness) of a beam (brace) is proportional to its width (make it twice as wide its twice as stiff) but proportional to the cube of height (make it twice as tall, it will be 8 times stiffer). Sand them to 15 foot radius (just happens I have that dish and it will make about the same dome as an ES-15

 

 

 

X marks the spot - glue them to the top against the 15 foot dish

 

 

Add the transverse brace and bridge patch

 

 

And let the glue cure overnight

[kwakatak]

Interesting. I see the similarities with your mandolin build. It kind of reminds me of a hollow body an uncle of mine once had. That was a very light instrument with an almost "nasal" unplugged tone. I wonder: have you ever played such a guitar?

 

I also see that you're using a radius dish. What's the radius? 12'? 16'?

[DeepEnd]

. . . I also see that you're using a radius dish. What's the radius? 12'? 16'?

It's 15':

. . . 15 foot radius . . .

[Surrealistic]

I assume he meant 15 inches, not 15 feet. It's a big hunk o' wood if it's really 30 feet across.

[gardo]

I assume he meant 15 inches' date=' not 15 feet. It's a big hunk o' wood if it's really 30 feet across.[/quote']

15 foot radius doesn't mean the top is 30 feet across any more than a 12 inch radius means a fretboard is 24 inches wide.15 foot is the radius of the arch top

[Freeman Keller]

I assume he meant 15 inches' date=' not 15 feet. It's a big hunk o' wood if it's really 30 feet across.[/quote']

 

If you were to hang a pendulum from a tree with a 15 foot long rope and start is swinging it would just graze the contour of the dish. Shades of Edgar Allen Poe....

 

It also means that the center of the lower bout (which is 16 inches across) will be approximately 3/8 inch above the rim - this is very close to what the ES is.

 

 

Most "flat top" guitars have a slight dome - usually about 25 foot radius and the 15 foot is pretty common for the backs. I'm just making this one 15 on both top and back

 

(I'll add that I'm going to start using a different camera - these pictures are really crappy)

[Freeman Keller]

Set the top aside and glue the center reinforcing strip to the back. This is simply a piece of Spanish cedar cut with the grain going across the seam

 

 

And add the braces to the back. Simple standard ladder braces with a 15 foot radius

 

 

Note, I only have so many go-bars of each length so I put little wooden blocks under them to both distribute the clamping pressure and to adjust the length to whatever I'm trying to clamp. A go-bar deck can apply an amazing amount of clamping pressure.

[guitarcapo]

I like the idea of arching the top more....given that this guitar is going to deal with downward bridge pressure and not the pull of a standard flat top. I see you used a maple bridge plate more in keeping with a flat-top's having to deal with metal ball end pins. I would have probably used spruce instead but no big deal. I would think, though, that bracing should follow an archtop's pattern more than flat-top just based on the task that soundboard is required to do.

 

An archtop guitar is usually braced less than a flattop because it is subject to less stress under load. This is basically because the strings don't anchor into the guitar face and some of the stress is carried by the tailpiece anchored to the box edge. The trap one could easily fall into is bracing this archtop like a flattop because the top isn't carved....when in reality it's functioning more like an archtop.

 

I would brace it a little more than a standard archtop because a truly carved spruce top is a little thicker than plates designed for flattop guitars. But not by much. You're basically bracing so that the top doesn't sink. Bracing at the edge not being that critical because the top is being pushed into the sides...not pulled away. I probably would crave all braces so they are nothing by the time they reach the kerfing. And just brace a tad heavier to compensate for the top plate being thinner than a truly carved archtop.

[Surrealistic]

15 foot radius doesn't mean the top is 30 feet across any more than a 12 inch radius means a fretboard is 24 inches wide.15 foot is the radius of the arch top

 

Clearly not - but it does mean a 30 foot circle diameter. You have to remember I know nothing of woodworking. I spent a year in woodwork class and failed to produce a single usable item.

 

Please carry on and feel free to ignore me

 

[gardo]

 

Clearly not - but it does mean a 30 foot circle diameter. You have to remember I know nothing of woodworking. I spent a year in woodwork class and failed to produce a single usable item.

 

Please carry on and feel free to ignore me

Just basic geometry, like a slice of pie.

Speaking of pie ,my pizza is ready.

 

 

 

[Freeman Keller]

 

Clearly not - but it does mean a 30 foot circle diameter. You have to remember I know nothing of woodworking. I spent a year in woodwork class and failed to produce a single usable item.

 

Please carry on and feel free to ignore me

 

You would be in a sphere 30 feet in diameter...

[Freeman Keller]

OK, hopefully we've got it all cleared up that this top will not be flat, which is what I think I want. I also really want to thank GuitarCapo, Kwak and others who have commented on what I'm doing here - some of this is rather uncharted for me and its good to have some feedback.

 

Back to the top, I put a little spruce graft over the gap in X

 

 

and start whittling the braces down to something reasonable looking. One thing you'll notice in some of these pictures (besides the poor quality) is that before I cut the f-holes I put some surgical tape on the area and saturated it with CA. If you look at any old f-hole instrument they always have cracks - hopefully this will help prevent that

 

 

Taper the ends of the braces as GC suggests to the thickness of a piece of binding (nothing important about the size, just convenient) - those will be tucked into little notches in the rim

 

 

When it was about this far along I decided to see what a jury of my peers thought

 

 

So I posted a thread over at one of the lutherie forums to see if it was a total disaster.

 

http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=43929

 

The responses are encouraging so I'll keep on keepin' on.

 

btw - going to go into the mountains for a couple of days so feel free to talk about me behind my back. I'll pick up when I return.

[guitarcapo]

This looks great. I think if I owned such a guitar I might not be able to resist the urge to have one of those small, pick guard mounted pickups installed near the neck. It wouldn't detract at all from the acoustic sound and would open up all that opportunity for fun playing jazz through a nice tube amp.

 

[Freeman Keller]

This looks great. I think if I owned such a guitar I might not be able to resist the urge to have one of those small, pick guard mounted pickups installed near the neck. It wouldn't detract at all from the acoustic sound and would open up all that opportunity for fun playing jazz through a nice tube amp.

 

I'm keeping those options open. The plan right now is to install a soundboard transducer while the box is still open - others have suggested a magnetic pup that doesn't require cutting into the top.