Members missedmyexit Posted February 13, 2009 Members Share Posted February 13, 2009 A typical rate normally describes either the normal or average rate. The tendancy should be to pay people the going rate for their trade/qualifications/job, unless they're freelance and tendered a set price for the work involved or working to a fixed day rate. We are going far off field from guitars, but I understood that when someone says a typical rate they are inferring average but this is also how PR people skew numbers. If the UAW says this is the average salary of works. The number is simply their combined salary divided by the number of workers. Tossing words like "A Typical" is commonly used to mislead people to think they are looking at an average. Otherwise why not just use the word average so there can be no question about where the number comes from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members missedmyexit Posted February 13, 2009 Members Share Posted February 13, 2009 sorry, my bad. that was opa john.I apologize for thinking it was you.Here's an indepent source from "yahoo answers" more current than the UAW page I quoted earlier-According to the Indianapolis Star:Base wages average about $28 an hour. GM officials say the average reaches $39.68 an hour, including base pay, cost-of-living adjustments, night-shift premiums, overtime, holiday and vacation pay. Health-care, pension and other benefits average another $33.58 an hour, GM says. - September 26, 2007 UNITED AUTO WORKERS OFF THE JOB, Striking back at globalization. By Ted Evanoff The same page quotes forklift drivers making over 100k. Again to be clear I am not saying I have an issue with the forklift driver making 100k. My real issue is the fact that this has been all over the news and a pretty simple thing to figure out math wise but many news outlets have used vague terminology and have very different numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gary Palmer Posted February 13, 2009 Members Share Posted February 13, 2009 We are going far off field from guitars, but I understood that when someone says a typical rate they are inferring average but this is also how PR people skew numbers. If the UAW says this is the average salary of works. The number is simply their combined salary divided by the number of workers. Tossing words like "A Typical" is commonly used to mislead people to think they are looking at an average. Otherwise why not just use the word average so there can be no question about where the number comes from. "A" Typical wasn't the phrase used and should have perhaps instead read "The" typical in place of a typical. Precise figures can only be provided if you request details regarding a particular group of employees employed in a given work routine. ------ Why Martin? They're the luthiery company who set certain standards encompassing bracing, build techniques/methods and body styles on which many base their own products. I suppose they could be described as the gold standard of the guitar world many aspire toward and comparitively few have surpassed in the field of factory based production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members missedmyexit Posted February 13, 2009 Members Share Posted February 13, 2009 "Why Martin? They're the luthiery company who set certain standards encompassing bracing, build techniques/methods and body styles on which many base their own products. I suppose they could be described as the gold standard of the guitar world many aspire toward and comparitively few have surpassed in the field of factory based production. I 100% agree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Queequeg Posted February 13, 2009 Members Share Posted February 13, 2009 Hey, I don't have a iron in this fire at all. I just happen to read more of the news stories on this than the general public does because I live in Michigan. I have never belonged to a union of any description, but I see plenty of misinformation out there making wild claims.Yep, forklift operators make more. and so do the execs. so do bankers. so do crane operators. so do doctors...the newspaper story used the word "average" instead of "typical".Going back to my college stat days, I know that "average" can mean various things, too.In this industrial tailspin we're in now, the average, whatever it means, is going down fast, as is the number of people employed in the industry.seems we always have to have a bogeyman, though. somebody to blame. "The Enemy" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members boxorox Posted February 13, 2009 Members Share Posted February 13, 2009 GM worker paid about $40 an hour. Factor in all the percs, it comes to about $75 an hour. 40 hour week= $3000. Give him 2 weeks vacation, comes out to $150,000 a year. Now please explain what this has to do with the relative cost vs. value of a Martin guitar. I believe if we're going to discuss the relative merits of capitalism vs. socialism, we can have a ripping good argument, regardless of the misapplication of lies, damned lies, and statistics. But let's move it down to the political forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Opa John Posted February 13, 2009 Members Share Posted February 13, 2009 source?this is one of the greatest misconceptions in the country these days.there is no basis in fact for it, just that a lot of people have a vested interest in continuing to spread this misinformation.How much are current UAW auto industry wages?In 2006 a typical UAW-represented assembler at GM earned $27.81 per hour of straight-time labor. A typical UAW-represented skilled-trades worker at GM earned $32.32 per hour of straight-time labor. Maybe I should've highlighted the words "with benefits and a little overtime" for people who comprehend only about half of what they read. Go back and read what I said.......and, just for practice, read ALL of the words this time. This information was reported on a recent news program about the current financial problems the U. S. auto industry is going through. You can't "make up" stuff like this! Throw in "benefits" like fully paid hospitalzation, 401K plans and who knows what else and you're not looking at a bad package. And, if your figures are correct, overtime would work out to about $45 per hour at time+1/2. It's not too difficult for me to understand how their yearly gross could be "in the neighborhood of $100K". This would require only about 11 hours overtime per week. And, by the way, THIS IS 2009....YOUR information is already THREE YEARS OLD!! Go to jail, do not pass "GO", do not collect $200! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rjoxyz Posted February 14, 2009 Members Share Posted February 14, 2009 OK, I forget. What was the question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wooglins Posted February 14, 2009 Members Share Posted February 14, 2009 Maybe I should've highlighted the words "with benefits and a little overtime" for people who comprehend only about half of what they read. Go back and read what I said.......and, just for practice, read ALL of the words this time. This information was reported on a recent news program about the current financial problems the U. S. auto industry is going through. You can't "make up" stuff like this!Throw in "benefits" like fully paid hospitalzation, 401K plans and who knows what else and you're not looking at a bad package. And, if your figures are correct, overtime would work out to about $45 per hour at time+1/2. It's not too difficult for me to understand how their yearly gross could be "in the neighborhood of $100K". This would require only about 11 hours overtime per week. And, by the way, THIS IS 2009....YOUR information is already THREE YEARS OLD!!Go to jail, do not pass "GO", do not collect $200! Yeah the information is old, now a UAW employee makes far less, and most will soon be without a job (once again my opinion of this is of no consequence). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rhancox Posted February 14, 2009 Members Share Posted February 14, 2009 I gotta throw in one thing about this UAW wage thing. The example given with all the benefits of insurance and 401K, etc, is called total compensation. The worker's yearly gross does not include benefits. Yes, the company may, ultimately, pay $100K/yr for an employee, in total compensation, but the worker's yearly gross is somewhere in the neighborhood of $60-$80K/yr. Quoting what you read or hear on TV only goes so far. The story could be embellished to prove the story teller's point. The data could be old or flawed. Take it all with a grain of salt, but don't call it gospel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Melodeous Posted February 14, 2009 Members Share Posted February 14, 2009 So, Martin should go off-shore then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members maximuskatana Posted February 14, 2009 Members Share Posted February 14, 2009 Man this sure has gotten off topic XD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted February 14, 2009 Members Share Posted February 14, 2009 IIRC, some of Martin's production has gone south of the border. Or was it Taylor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Queequeg Posted February 14, 2009 Members Share Posted February 14, 2009 Kwak, you are correct. Martin does some entry level stuff in Mexico. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wooglins Posted February 14, 2009 Members Share Posted February 14, 2009 Kwak, you are correct. Martin does some entry level stuff in Mexico. Mexico is a good place for woodworking. Many of the best craftsmen in the world live there and they flat out work hard, and best of all you can actually own and operate the factory to your specifications. Not possible in communist countries. The downside, well you have to pay more, still far less than the American wage, but far more than the peanuts you can pay in an Asian sweat shop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Queequeg Posted February 14, 2009 Members Share Posted February 14, 2009 Mexico is a good place for woodworking. Many of the best craftsmen in the world live there and they flat out work hard, and best of all you can actually own and operate the factory to your specifications. Not possible in communist countries. The downside, well you have to pay more, still far less than the American wage, but far more than the peanuts you can pay in an Asian sweat shop. well, hey, I am not wanting this thing to go political on us any more than it already has. wasn't my intent at the onset. Somebody dragged in US auto workers saying that the guys made 100k/yr and I have done enough reading on it to know that's not the case. challenging that in my estimation wasn't political, but I know others will disagree, so I'm letting that one drop. But as to Mexico vs Asian guitars- look, there are fine craftsmen all over the world. I have an Eastman [made in China] that is just beautiful, and from everything I have tried to find out about the operation there it is not a sweatshop but I never visited the place personally, so I can't really attest to it.I used to really enjoy going to Mexico and did a lot of wonderful scuba diving there years ago. But frankly, what I read in the news every day now, the place scares the begeeziz out of me today.Honestly, I don't care too much which political party is running which country. Anyone paying attention recently ought to recognize that leaders can make a mess of things no matter which badge they are wearing or what flag they run up the pole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wooglins Posted February 14, 2009 Members Share Posted February 14, 2009 that is just beautiful, and from everything I have tried to find out about the operation there it is not a sweatshop but I never visited the place personally, so I can't really attest to it.I used to really enjoy going to Mexico and did a lot of wonderful scuba diving there years ago. But frankly, what I read in the news every day now, the place scares the begeeziz out of me today.Honestly, I don't care too much which political party is running which country. Anyone paying attention recently ought to recognize that leaders can make a mess of things no matter which badge they are wearing or what flag they run up the pole. You are spot on about the autoworker junk, I dont know why everyone thinks American autoworkers make so much. The job banks, benefits, etc. have grown so large in cost that they are going to sink 2 of the big 3. Of course lets get back to Martin. What makes Martin guitars so great!!!!!! I know I love mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Melodeous Posted February 14, 2009 Members Share Posted February 14, 2009 Mexico is a good place for woodworking. Many of the best craftsmen in the world live there and they flat out work hard, and best of all you can actually own and operate the factory to your specifications. Not possible in communist countries. The downside, well you have to pay more, still far less than the American wage, but far more than the peanuts you can pay in an Asian sweat shop.Yep. Quite a few years ago I went to the border town Nogalez and was amazed at some of the craftsmanship. Then I noticed on one of the pieces it read Made in Japan - just kidding.I bought a pair of boots in Osan, Korea, thinking that for the $10.00 I spent it sure beat the $40.00 stuff at K-Mart. Packed them away while in Korea. Got home and when putting them on I saw a label inside the left boot. It read: Quality always the best at K-Mart.Fact is, there are craftsman all over the place who don't care what flag they have to fly. They just want to do what they do. I don't see craftsmanship as a cultural thing at all. Seen too much of it everywhere to figure that one out all by myself. That being said I don't see why the flagship of American guitar makers must remain here. Mexico would be a great place. And, from what I hear, Formica is banned in Mexico. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guit30 Posted February 15, 2009 Members Share Posted February 15, 2009 I bought a Martin back in 99, whivch was one of the first D-16GTs, I had to order and wait a few monthes for it. I picked it up after paying 750 for it, and took it home, should have had it set up, but could not play then anyway. I bought it by faith that someday I would be able to play again. Well, I'm playing again, but not the Martin, I had it for a couple of years and sold it, It cost me too much money to be taking up floor space, also, the 1st ones had poor quality ebony fretboards which had large cracks in them, why they turned to murado(spelling) JIm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members HD28HLA Posted February 15, 2009 Members Share Posted February 15, 2009 "...the 1st ones had poor quality ebony fretboards which had large cracks in them, why they turned to murado(spelling)..." Pretty interesting that you let it sit a while and then decided to sell it. The "poor quality ebony fretboards" you refer to were Macassar (striped) Ebony. Yours probably cracked because you did not take care to keep it properly humidified. Martin switched to Micarta (a more expensive synthetic material) because some of the early GT's had a problem with color actually leaching out of the Ebony into the catalyzed lacquer finish on the tops. Martin doesn't ship "poor quality" anything. The vast majority of problems people have with new Martins come from improper care and handling by dealers and players who don't have a clue on how to take care of them. Bud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members knockwood Posted February 15, 2009 Members Share Posted February 15, 2009 Buy Chinese. It's the only reasonable thing to do.. My problem with Chinese guitars is that half an hour after I play one, I need to play some more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rjoxyz Posted February 15, 2009 Members Share Posted February 15, 2009 My problem with Chinese guitars is that half an hour after I play one, I need to play some more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Queequeg Posted February 15, 2009 Members Share Posted February 15, 2009 My problem with Chinese guitars is that half an hour after I play one, I need to play some more... not to mention the MSG. don't get me started... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Melodeous Posted February 15, 2009 Members Share Posted February 15, 2009 Martin doesn't ship "poor quality" anything. The vast majority of problems people have with new Martins come from improper care and handling by dealers and players who don't have a clue on how to take care of them. Bud Yea, someone must be stealing those HPL experimental guitars from martin's prototype room and getting them to the distributors under martin's nose and without their knowledge their coffers are being refilled with the sale of them. Keeping things in perspective, martin is using sub-standard materials to gain market share in the lower-mid range. They have to. As much as I would have liked them to remain the stalwart of American guitar-making companies they can't in order to remain viable and solvent. The move to HPL was a startling one, for me (), because rather than go with furniture grade plywood they chose something even cheaper - plastic. Imagine that! Martin is making guitars with plastic sides and backs and trying the old marketing ploy of giving it some fancy name - HPL - high pressure laminate. That's quality? Is it a matter of making nice glue joints with the plastic? I'll give you that much otherwise you and I have conflicting ideas about quality. Martin is standing on a banana peel. Falling one way is insolvency by maintaining strict quality adherence, the other way sacrifices that reputation by introducing sub-standard products. One other way would be to take its tradition for quality off-shore where craftsmen of equal skills can produce that traditional quality product for substantially less investment. But, they are indeed shipping products that are sub-standard to their traditional long-standing quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guildfire Posted February 15, 2009 Members Share Posted February 15, 2009 Martin is going for market share just like any other company. They are tarnishing their coveted brand name in the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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