Why Martin???

[EvilTwin]

Serious dough, and the improvements become more subtle, more subjective, more personal.

 

 

Bingo.

 

You reach a point where as the price rises, so does the subtlety of any improvements.

 

Some people drink Johnnie Walker Black and think there's nothing better. Others upgrade to Blue label and think they've spent their money well. Neither one of them is wrong.

[Fred Fartboski]

 

Yamaha has a Limited Lifetime Warrenty. I just wish we could get an American Guitar Company that could turn out a decent guitar in the $500 buck range,

 

 

How much of a cut in pay do you think American Martin workers would be willing to take in order to turn out D28's and D35's for $500 and have Martin still turn a profit?

[TN.Frank]

How much of a cut in pay do you think American Martin workers would be willing to take in order to turn out D28's and D35's for $500 and have Martin still turn a profit?

 

 

I don't think it has anything to do what what the workers make, it's what the CEO is taking home every year. If Martin is like most manufacturing plants then the workers are probably only making $10 to $15 bucks an hour unless they're a Union Shop then it'd be a higher rate. I've worked in a lot of manufacturing jobs over the years. The workers don't make squat, it's the people at the head office that make the big bucks.

You could argue that the entire reason our economy is in such a mess in this country is because things made here are too expensive for the "average" worker to afford so we have to buy things made off shore, that sends money overseas instead of keeping it home. If the price of American goods were cheaper then Americans could afford to buy what they make and that would keep the money here in the U.S. but Corprate Greed, being what it is, means that CEO's will continue to make millions of bucks a year, workers will still get squat and we can't afford to buy our own products.

I'm still thinking real strongly about buying Canadian, at least it'll be in N.America and maybe some of the money will go to support Hockey, a sport that I really love.

[rjoxyz]

Frank--It ain't all corporate greed. It is also what we in the U.S. have come to expect as a reasonable standard of living.

If those Martin workers are making $15/hr., what do you think the 12 year old making that Blueridge in China makes an hour? What overhead do you think that Chinese company incurs to satisfy OSHA-like standards, EPA-like standards, etc. You can cut the air in Beijing with a knife. Wonder how much those Chinese companies pay per worker for health insurance?

We will be able to compete industrially with those developing nations, when our North American work force is willing to accept the conditions of the workers in those other nations. I for one, don't ever want to see that.

[rhancox]

I don't think it has anything to do what what the workers make, it's what the CEO is taking home every year. If Martin is like most manufacturing plants then the workers are probably only making $10 to $15 bucks an hour unless they're a Union Shop then it'd be a higher rate. I've worked in a lot of manufacturing jobs over the years. The workers don't make squat, it's the people at the head office that make the big bucks. You could argue that the entire reason our economy is in such a mess in this country is because things made here are too expensive for the "average" worker to afford so we have to buy things made off shore, that sends money overseas instead of keeping it home. If the price of American goods were cheaper then Americans could afford to buy what they make and that would keep the money here in the U.S. but Corprate Greed, being what it is, means that CEO's will continue to make millions of bucks a year, workers will still get squat and we can't afford to buy our own products. I'm still thinking real strongly about buying Canadian, at least it'll be in N.America and maybe some of the money will go to support Hockey, a sport that I really love.

 

 

I understand your point and frustration, Frank, but it's not the CEO's compensation that dictates the price of the product made.

 

Payroll is the highest expense any company will ever have. Combining all the salaries of every other employee will usually surpass that of the CEO/owner of the company.

 

I'll grant you that some compensation packages detailed in recent news seem a bit out of whack, but it's what the market will bear. It doesn't matter if it's a hubcap pounder, an professional athlete or a CEO, we all get paid pretty much what the market will bear.

 

In Martin's case, and I'm speculating here, if the product they turn out is of such high quality, then I'd bet the people that put them together are pretty good at what they do and deserve to get paid wages approaching that of a craftsman.

 

You really need to be privy to how a company actually functions to understand. If all you know is what it's like to be the worker, then your perspective is skewed and will always view the top dog in a bad light.

[wooglins]

An average Chinese wage of $0.57 per hour -- or $104 per month -- is about 3 percent of the average U.S. manufacturing worker's wage. That is a far stretch from 10-15 dollars an hour.

[stratman61]

Can't argue with that, makes alot of sense. But also brought up another "Why Martin". Generally speaking they are the measuring stick most manufactured guitars are graded on. When people get a great soundin 300 dollar guitar they say "It sounds as good as a Martin". Alot of us grew up with that misque and it was something we aspired to own. I felt great when I finally moved into a house that I own and didn't rent, felt that all that working has paid off. I felt similar when I took my Martin home.

 

 

+1

[TN.Frank]

I guess my main "Problem" then is NOT that Martin's cost so much, it's that I'm paid so little. Hard to buy many "high end" guitars making $7.60/hr on a 12-18 hr. work week.

[stratman61]

I just bought my first Martin and I went into the store looking to try out the Taylor 314CE and 414ce. I played every acoustic in that room, Gibsons, Taylors, Martins, Larivees, and I was prepared to spend up to 2500.00 to get the one that spoke to me.
After a couple hours I walked out with a Martin 000C-RGTE Aura and I love it and hope to be playin her for many years to come. I don't care what anyone says, and I don't have an explaination for it, But IMO nothing can get "that" sound that comes from a Martin. Not that others don't sound really good but the sound from Martins are unique, IMO.

[Melodeous]

Buy Chinese. It's the only reasonable thing to do. .

[Hudman]

Martin cost more based on their reputation, higher cost of doing business in the USA and the fact the market is willing to support their prices.

 

It is unfair to compare the price of foreign made guitars to USA made guitars. The biggest cost in assembling a guitar in the USA is labor.

 

Martin could sell $2500 guitars for $500 if they paid their employees $1.00 - $2.00 per hour and didn't have to worry about unemployment insurance, health insurance, OSHA, employee law suits, the EPA, etc, etc, etc......

 

It simply costs a lot more money to mass produce guitars here.

[Melodeous]

Martin cost more based on their reputation, higher cost of doing business in the USA and the fact the market is willing to support their prices. It is unfair to compare the price of foreign made guitars to USA made guitars. The biggest cost in assembling a guitar in the USA is labor. Martin could sell $2500 guitars for $500 if they paid their employees $1.00 - $2.00 per hour and didn't have to worry about unemployment insurance, health insurance, OSHA, employee law suits, the EPA, etc, etc, etc...... It simply costs a lot more money to mass produce guitars here.

 

 

All valid. One wonders if/when Chris Martin will have to make a hard decision and move his manufacturing facility off-shore or across the border to Mexico. I wonder if that would tank his company's reputation.

[wooglins]

All valid. One wonders if/when Chris Martin will have to make a hard decision and move his manufacturing facility off-shore or across the border to Mexico. I wonder if that would tank his company's reputation.

 

 

It would ruin the product. I dont think you can have good quality control on products that are hand made and rely on tight QC in cheap labor areas. If you could actually own and run the factory in Asia that would be a different thing, but there is this little thing called communisim that messes that up.

 

I dont think Martin will ever have to move its core business out of the United States. They make a quality product now, and are very profitable. Why mess up a good thing.

[rjoxyz]

I dont think Martin will ever have to move its core business out of the United States. They make a quality product now, and are very profitable. Why mess up a good thing.

 

 

As long as they remain privately owned, and don't have to feel the pressure of shareholder demands for even higher profits.

[DonK]

Spraying a perfectly-applied lacquer finish on a guitar - and multiple coats at that, along with the requisite sanding between coats - is a lot more labor intensive than shooting one or a couple of coats of poly. So is getting the inlays right, rather than stuffing a bunch of black filler around them to cover up quick-and-dirty workmanship. So is fitting a dove-tailed neck like a glove, rather than forcing a bunch of excess glue in the slot to fill the gaps. Take all that and multiply it by an American wage that's 30 to 40 times what the Chinese laborer is making and you'll see why a Martin costs more than a Blueridge, or an Aria, or a Johnson, or a Recording King.

I have an Aria AD-80 that's a virtual dead ringer for a Martin D-42 from five feet away. On closer inspection though, you can see that it has a thickish poly finish - with some imperfections and excess finish build-up in the joints. Same w/ my Johnson JO-27 (which also has a fake ebony - i.e., stained rosewood - board that kept rubbing off on my fingers for the first few months I had it). Both sound great. Both play great. Ultimately though, they're not the same as their Martin brethren. Different people will have different ideas about whether the price difference makes it worth stepping up to the real thing, but make no mistake: there are differences beyond the fact that a Martin costs more than a typical Chinese competitor.

[DonK]

 

I don't think it has anything to do what what the workers make, it's what the CEO is taking home every year. If Martin is like most manufacturing plants then the workers are probably only making $10 to $15 bucks an hour unless they're a Union Shop then it'd be a higher rate. I've worked in a lot of manufacturing jobs over the years. The workers don't make squat, it's the people at the head office that make the big bucks.

 

 

You're smoking something if you think the compensation of Martin's executives drives the pricing of their guitars. The last time I checked, Martin made in excess of 100,000 guitars a year. At an average of $1,000 per guitar (probably high; remember, they sell them to retailers for about 50% of MSRP, which equates my average of $1,000 per guitar to an MSRP of $2,000 - a guitar that would sell at retail for $1,300 - $1,400: their mix is probably lower overall) that would put them at roughly $100M in size, which is a relatively small company by U.S. standards. If they paid their top 10 executives a total of $5M (it wouldn't likely exceed that amount for a company of their size, e.g., $100M: I have dozens of clients in that revenue range, and there isn't one where the top 10 exec's' comp exceeds $5M in total), that would work out to $50 per guitar. You don't get from the MSRP of $1,195 on a Blueridge BR-160 (street price of around $800) to a Martin D-28 with an MSRP of $2,999 (street price around $1,800 - $1,950) based on what Martin pays its execs. That's baloney. It probably costs $50 a guitar just to ship a BR to the U.S.

 

On the other hand, multiple coats of nitro (vs. one or two of poly), meticulous craftsmanship by American artisans, and a lifetime guarantee: now that will get you there.

 

I often wonder how some of the boutique manufacturers in the U.S. can make any money at all. For example, Gallagher reportedly produces fewer than 100 guitars a year. If the average one sold to retailers at $3,000 (I paid $2,500 for mine, and you can bet the retailer paid far less than that), that would equal gross revenue of $300,000. They have 5 employees. I wonder which ones are cleaning up, given that some of that $300,000 has to go to cover the cost of spruce, rosewood, mahogany, equipment, advertising, etc.

[maximuskatana]

I wasn't aware that martin had a lifetime warranty. That to me is worth a hell of a lot of money extra. Think about it this way, its pretty much a free warranty. You pay what, like an extra 200-500 dollars for a 3 or 4 year extension on a warranty for an electronic item. That makes the cost worth it IMO. I love my alvarez, my next acoustic will probably be another alvarez, but if I could afford it I wouldn't mind buying a martin.

[TN.Frank]

I wasn't aware that martin had a lifetime warranty. That to me is worth a hell of a lot of money extra.

 

 

Like I said before, Yamaha also has a Limited Lifetime Warrenty. Any quality guitar maker should stand behind their products unless they KNOW that they're turning out junk.

[RizinRico]

when I A/B'ed a martin 000-28EC vs a blueridge BR163 I bought the blue and put the 2500 in savings into lessons. so I guess I cast my lot with your way of thinking

[DonK]

I wasn't aware that martin had a lifetime warranty. That to me is worth a hell of a lot of money extra. Think about it this way, its pretty much a free warranty. You pay what, like an extra 200-500 dollars for a 3 or 4 year extension on a warranty for an electronic item. That makes the cost worth it IMO. I love my alvarez, my next acoustic will probably be another alvarez, but if I could afford it I wouldn't mind buying a martin.

 

 

Not only do they have a lifetime warranty, they actually stand behind it, unlike some others who claim to have one but set conditions to the point where the only thing really covered is the neck snapping off spontaneously within five minutes of purchase.

[DonK]

 

when I A/B'ed a martin 000-28EC vs a blueridge BR163 I bought the blue and put the 2500 in savings into lessons. so I guess I cast my lot with your way of thinking

 

 

Certainly nothing wrong with your choice, especially if you felt the two were equal, or close to it, or that the BR was all you needed vs. spending an extra $2,500. I felt that way about my JO-27 compared to the 000-28EC. The JO-27 is even closer to the Martin than the BR: it has the same V-shape neck, and the 24.9" scale.

[maximuskatana]

If I understand what I read correctly, the yamaha warranty is pretty much useless. I downloaded it from their site, in pdf form. This is what I read.

 

EXCLUSIONS

This warranty does not cover the following:

1. Failures that are the result of improper operations, maintenance

or repair.

2. Failures that result from abnormal strain, neglect, modification,

accidental damage or exposure to extremes in tempera

ture or relative humidity.

3. Products purchased from dealers not authorized by Yamaha to

sell Yamaha Guitar Product.

4. Products whose trademark, name, or identification numbers

have been altered or removed.Guitars marked

[Tag]

I don't have anything to add other than i played a D-15 the other day that changed my life. I may end up owning it soon.

Haha, this already happened to me, and I already own it.

If anything I was turned off by Martin because of all the hoopla, I usually like to find unusual gear that no one knows about. But I walked into a shop one day, played a few guitars, picked up the D15, and it was just *right*. It certainly wasn't my first choice for looks (though I think they are neat looking), but sometimes the tone is just right. I'd still like to get something a bit brighter, like a maple jumbo or something, but every time I pick up my D15 I continue to marvel at the tone...

[DonK]

 

If I understand what I read correctly, the yamaha warranty is pretty much useless. I downloaded it from their site, in pdf form. This is what I read.   EXCLUSIONS This warranty does not cover the following: 1. Failures that are the result of improper operations, maintenance or repair. 2. Failures that result from abnormal strain, neglect, modification, accidental damage or exposure to extremes in tempera ture or relative humidity. 3. Products purchased from dealers not authorized by Yamaha to sell Yamaha Guitar Product. 4. Products whose trademark, name, or identification numbers have been altered or removed.Guitars marked

[maximuskatana]

That's true, Guess I didn't really think that one through about the warranty XD. Guess I should have followed the addage think before you post lol. Got a bit carried away. I'm able to admit when i've been bested .