Why Martin???

[Queequeg]

 

BMW offers lifetime warranty on certain areas of their cars yes ... obviously not on all items. A business model is a business model - it doesn't matter how big that business is, and good business practice is good business practice. Martin offered to pay for the shipping of my D-35 back to the USA because : 1. I bought it in the USA when I lived there 2. It is only 6 months old and strictly speaking needs a neck reset usually outside the USA the owner will have to pay the shipping costs ...so ... do enlighten me as to what additional expense CFM would have covering their guitars bought overseas? really - think about what you're saying before you write guys. I have every respect for Donk and his earlier posts in this thread ( and posts in many other threads ) were excellent so if it was tongue in cheek fair play to him. What I cant accept is that CFM can't stand by their product worldwide. I think you will find that anyone who lives outside the USA will feel the same about this and perhaps you fellas need to think a little bit outside the box here. Would you feel good if Yamaha offered a lifetime warranty in Japan but one year in the USA? .............

 

think outside the box, eh? (oh yes, here it is... cliche #972)

well, I'll certainly take that under advisement, Mr rickoshea, sir.

thanks for collectively dressing us down, there pardner.

What additional expense does CFM incur by warrantying overseas? plenty. how about a network of distributors, and/or sales force and advertising.

what size box were you thinking of?

maybe if you were moving to Paris, you should have thought outside the USA box before you bought your guitar. I guess you should have bought a Yamaha.

I'm sure you have a snappy answer but my pea-sized brain can't quite guess which cliche is coming next.

[majorbanjo]

I like my Martin because it smells good......

[majorbanjo]

I like my Martin because it smells good....

[Tony Burns]

Gentleman -ive enjoyed this post pretty much up to this point- but its getting a bit to agressive for most of our tastes -If their is some way we can agree to disagree- or take our guitars into a corner and do a dueling banjo kind of thing.

Hopefully someday we can all get together and raise our glasses up to each other -

-Peace

[missedmyexit]

BMW offers lifetime warranty on certain areas of their cars yes ... obviously not on all items. A business model is a business model - it doesn't matter how big that business is, and good business practice is good business practice. Martin offered to pay for the shipping of my D-35 back to the USA because : 1. I bought it in the USA when I lived there 2. It is only 6 months old and strictly speaking needs a neck reset usually outside the USA the owner will have to pay the shipping costs ...so ... do enlighten me as to what additional expense CFM would have covering their guitars bought overseas? really - think about what you're saying before you write guys. I have every respect for Donk and his earlier posts in this thread ( and posts in many other threads ) were excellent so if it was tongue in cheek fair play to him. What I cant accept is that CFM can't stand by their product worldwide. I think you will find that anyone who lives outside the USA will feel the same about this and perhaps you fellas need to think a little bit outside the box here. Would you feel good if Yamaha offered a lifetime warranty in Japan but one year in the USA? .............

 

 

"A business model is a business model" I'm not even sure what that means. Martin at some point decided that the logicstics of offering their Lifetime Warranty WorldWide was not something they could or would support. I am sure they had a reason for it. Since Martin did offer to pay for shipping and fix your guitar it shows they do stand behind their product.

 

If Yamaha offered only a 1yr warranty that would be something I would accept and factor in when deciding on where to spend my money. I don't see why people are personally insulted by this.

 

Your whole "think about what you are saying before you write" rant doesn't make you sound intelligent, it makes you come off as a rude moron. Might want to tone it down if you want people to listen to your point of view.

[Oldskool Texas]

I agree that it's usually Gibson that takes the bashing in the electric forum, but there's no way I could equate them with Martin. To me, Martin and Gibson are totally different. Martin symbolizes commitment to quality and service: the consistency of their instruments is nonpareil IMO. Gibson OTOH is very uneven in the quality of their instruments.

 

 

I agree. but to clarify, I only equate these two brands in the following ways:

 

1. They both have created iconic, standard-of-the-industry instruments that have largely defined the American guitar.

 

2. They both make guitars that I would be proud to own.

 

3. They both are criticized for their high prices.

[rickoshea]

"A business model is a business model" I'm not even sure what that means. Martin at some point decided that the logicstics of offering their Lifetime Warranty WorldWide was not something they could or would support. I am sure they had a reason for it. Since Martin did offer to pay for shipping and fix your guitar it shows they do stand behind their product. If Yamaha offered only a 1yr warranty that would be something I would accept and factor in when deciding on where to spend my money. I don't see why people are personally insulted by this. Your whole "think about what you are saying before you write" rant doesn't make you sound intelligent, it makes you come off as a rude moron. Might want to tone it down if you want people to listen to your point of view.

 

 

Emmmm okkkk, sadly this was all said in a bantering fashion but yes, you don't understand. I'll leave it at that after saying not too many double qualified medical and dental surgeons are morons lol I hope everyone else can take my points as I intended them and not be so defensive. It did amuse me your replies though.

[Guitarplay]

BMW offers lifetime warranty on certain areas of their cars yes ... obviously not on all items. A business model is a business model - it doesn't matter how big that business is, and good business practice is good business practice. Martin offered to pay for the shipping of my D-35 back to the USA because : 1. I bought it in the USA when I lived there 2. It is only 6 months old and strictly speaking needs a neck reset usually outside the USA the owner will have to pay the shipping costs ...so ... do enlighten me as to what additional expense CFM would have covering their guitars bought overseas? really - think about what you're saying before you write guys. I have every respect for Donk and his earlier posts in this thread ( and posts in many other threads ) were excellent so if it was tongue in cheek fair play to him. What I cant accept is that CFM can't stand by their product worldwide. I think you will find that anyone who lives outside the USA will feel the same about this and perhaps you fellas need to think a little bit outside the box here. Would you feel good if Yamaha offered a lifetime warranty in Japan but one year in the USA? .............

 

As others have said, shipping, customs taxes, and rules and regulations and different time zones of many countries would make honoring warranty's abroad difficult. Imagine this: some guy in France, call him Pierre, wants his martin repaired under warranty, so he calls from Paris at 12pm in the afternoon. well over at Martin HQ its 9pm in the evening and the Martin factory is long closed. Now Pierre gets mad and complains and reports Martin to the appropriate US business regulatory agency on the grounds that the company failed to facilitate its warranty process. Suddenly Martin has to pay a new overnight team to manage the warranty claims of overseas customers, which raises costs. Of course Martin has to skimp somewhere to pay for this new cost, so quality suffers in other departments; US customers now wait on hold longer because they shifted some CR reps to the night crew, etc. In short, Martins ability to cater to its majority United States customers is reduced because the minority (that's you), demanded that they honor their warranty abroad. Its not that Martin doesn't want to stand by their product worldwide, its just that they made the business decision to cut out 1% of customers abroad (that's you again) in order reduce hassle and provide good service for their primary consumers here in the States.

 

There you have it, you asked for an explanation and you got it. While completely hypothetical, what I described could certainly happen and demonstrates why honoring a warranty abroad is more pain than gain.

[rjoxyz]

Emmmm okkkk, sadly this was all said in a bantering fashion but yes, you don't understand. I'll leave it at that after saying not too many double qualified medical and dental surgeons are morons lol I hope everyone else can take my points as I intended them and not be so defensive. It did amuse me your replies though.

 

 

Plenty of professionals are rude morons. Some are even double qualified morons. I work with them everyday, though I don't feel the need to tout my credentials on the internet. That would make me a rude (and self-absorbed) moron.

[Gary Palmer]

think outside the box, eh? oh yes, here it is... cliche #972) well, I'll certainly take that under advisement, Mr rickoshea, sir. thanks for collectively dressing us down, there pardner. What additional expense does CFM incur by warrantying overseas? plenty. how about a network of distributors, and/or sales force and advertising. what size box were you thinking of? maybe if you were moving to Paris, you should have thought outside the USA box before you bought your guitar. I guess you should have bought a Yamaha. I'm sure you have a snappy answer but my pea-sized brain can't quite guess which cliche is coming next.

 

 

Rick's comments didn't deserve such a bitterly coloured reaction.

 

Here are a few facts;

 

Martin already have a European distribution network and comprehensively advertise the view that their instruments are the best, yet omit to warrant instruments bought outside USA & Canada.

 

Taken from "The Care & Feeding of Your Martin Guitar - International Edition".

 

"NO WARRANTY ON THIS INSTRUMENT IS GRANTED BY C.F.MARTIN & CO., INC.; If there is any warranty on this instrument it is granted by the distributor, not by C.F.Martin & Co., Inc. If you wish information on whether a warranty is offered and on the nature of it, please contact the distributor where you purchased your instrument."

 

If buying outside the USA & Canada, in essence, all ties are cut by Martin once ownership has passed beyond the typical - consumer biased - one year warranty period. This is despite competitors such as Yamaha, Stonebridge, Cort, PJE, Godin, BMG, Takemine, etc., etc., offering just as wide ranging cover, guarantees and warranty on goods, regardless of location or point of purchase.

 

We're all free to choose what we buy and who we buy from, but IMHO home market bias indicates poor judgement when selling internationally and utilising overseas sales teams. This is especially unfair on overseas customers when the prices currently paid for Martin's are tantamount to buying shares in the company.

 

Food for thought.

[slagorourke]

If buying outside the USA & Canada, in essence, all ties are cut by Martin once ownership has passed beyond the typical - consumer biased - one year warranty period. This is despite competitors such as Yamaha, Stonebridge, Cort, PJE, Godin, BMG, Takemine, etc., etc., offering just as wide ranging cover, guarantees and warranty on goods, regardless of location or point of purchase. We're all free to choose what we buy and who we buy from, but IMHO home market bias indicates poor judgement when selling internationally and utilising . Especially for overseas customers when the prices currently paid for Martin's are tantamount to buying shares in the company. Food for thought.

 

 

That sums it up nicely. Well put.

[rickoshea]

As others have said, shipping, customs taxes, and rules and regulations and different time zones of many countries would make honoring warranty's abroad difficult. Imagine this: some guy in France, call him Pierre, wants his martin repaired under warranty, so he calls from Paris at 12pm in the afternoon. well over at Martin HQ its 9pm in the evening and the Martin factory is long closed. Now Pierre gets mad and complains and reports Martin to the appropriate US business regulatory agency on the grounds that the company failed to facilitate its warranty process. Suddenly Martin has to pay a new overnight team to manage the warranty claims of overseas customers, which raises costs. Of course Martin has to skimp somewhere to pay for this new cost, so quality suffers in other departments; you wait longer for a response to your inquiry about the production date of your acoustic, etc. In short, Martins ability to cater to its majority United States customers is reduced because the minority (that's you), demanded that they honor their warranty abroad. Its not that Martin doesn't want to stand by their product worldwide, its just that they made the business decision to cut out 1% of customers abroad (that's you again) in order reduce hassle and provide good service for their primary consumers here in the States. There you have it, you asked for an explanation and you got it. While completely hypothetical, what I described could certainly happen and demonstrates why honoring a warranty abroad is more pain than gain.

a sensible argument .... I called them realizing they were 6 hours behind me tho. Whatever, their service to me was impeccable and their product is superb - no doubt about that

[rickoshea]

Plenty of professionals are rude morons. Some are even double qualified morons. I work with them everyday, though I don't feel the need to tout my credentials on the internet. That would make me a rude (and self-absorbed) moron.

 

 

Oh dear god ....... LOL!!!!!

[boxorox]

Why Martin? Why not? Kinda like Jazz. If you don't get it, I can't explain it to you. Kinda funny to see that the guitars that are compared are built on designs and specifications originated by the C.F. Martin Co. Are some guitars as good as Martins? Yes. Are some better? Yes. Does this negate Martin's reputation for excelence? No.
In/re overseas warranty, what does Martin gain? There was a time when all Martin's warranty work was done at the factory. Not a prob if you lived in driving distance. But hard on folks that had to ship theirs in. A system of "Certified Martin" repairmen was instituted. Faster, more convenient. But the system requires certification to become, and recertification to remain, a recognized Martin repairman. The expense of maintaining this system with offices and to certify and oversee the participants to guarantee consistant QC up to their standards would be daunting. By extending the warranty overseas they would also be responsible for things beyond their control. Indifferance to climate control and handling by shippers, distributors and retailers would wind up back on their doorstep. To extend such a warranty would mean maintaining a system of personell to oversee their interests. If you think this is BS, why don't we see any Kettler mandolins? Why are we playing Taylors instead of Mossmans? This lack of control over shipped product nearly ruined Stelling. Outside of that, you know the deal when you decide to buy one.
I own instruments in the 4 to 5 figure range. I own a lot of inexpensive stuff that plays darned well. The ones I play most ring in at about $250. My cheap stuff is not crap. My expensive stuff is superior, and well worth the money TO ME.
Back to OP: Frank, You'll get what you want, and what you like. It's all good. You're doing a lot of exploration and discovery. But I'd bet a C note that within the next three years you will play a D-18 or 28 you'll believe you can't live without. Then it's Katie, bar the door...

[Gary Palmer]

Why Martin? Why not? Kinda like Jazz. If you don't get it, I can't explain it to you. Kinda funny to see that the guitars that are compared are built on designs and specifications originated by the C.F. Martin Co. Are some guitars as good as Martins? Yes. Are some better? Yes. Does this negate Martin's reputation for excelence? No. In/re overseas warranty, what does Martin gain? There was a time when all Martin's warranty work was done at the factory. Not a prob if you lived in driving distance. But hard on folks that had to ship theirs in. A system of "Certified Martin" repairmen was instituted. Faster, more convenient. But the system requires certification to become, and recertification to remain, a recognized Martin repairman. The expense of maintaining this system with offices and to certify and oversee the participants to guarantee consistant QC up to their standards would be daunting. By extending the warranty overseas they would also be responsible for things beyond their control. Indifferance to climate control and handling by shippers, distributors and retailers would wind up back on their doorstep. To extend such a warranty would mean maintaining a system of personell to oversee their interests. If you think this is BS, why don't we see any Kettler mandolins? Why are we playing Taylors instead of Mossmans? This lack of control over shipped product nearly ruined Stelling. Outside of that, you know the deal when you decide to buy one. I own instruments in the 4 to 5 figure range. I own a lot of inexpensive stuff that plays darned well. The ones I play most ring in at about $250. My cheap stuff is not crap. My expensive stuff is superior, and well worth the money TO ME. Back to OP: Frank, You'll get what you want, and what you like. It's all good. You're doing a lot of exploration and discovery. But I'd bet a C note that within the next three years you will play a D-18 or 28 you'll believe you can't live without. Then it's Katie, bar the door...

 

 

Martin would legitimately gain a larger portion of the sales market if they were to improve upon their overseas warranty cover. There already exist a number of authorised repairshops/service centres among their overseas distribution network, whilst well managed staff training and warranty coverage costs would be negligable in comparison to sales increases.

 

Is it a question of whether or not they want to, or is something else holding them back? Many other instrument manufacturers offer localised and comprehensive warranty coverage without problem, so why can't Martin?

 

After all is said and done, I think Martin craft excellent production line and custom shop instruments that are well worth the asking price. Their goods are something by which other makers gauge their own product ranges, but I sincerely wish they'd re-consider overseas warranty policy.

[Queequeg]

UAW workers in Detroit are making, with benefits and a little overtime, in the neighborhood of $100K per annum. And, they keep wanting more an more money all the time. They have this convoluted idea that turning a bolt when something comes up in front of them is "skilled labor". What they have is limited skills , but a very strong labor union. I'm amazed that you can stiill buy a decent Ford or Chevy for what they're selling for. I would imagine a lot of us are going to see the day when that all comes to a screeching halt. It's just a matter of time.

 

source?

this is one of the greatest misconceptions in the country these days.

there is no basis in fact for it, just that a lot of people have a vested interest in continuing to spread this misinformation.

 

How much are current UAW auto industry wages?

 

In 2006 a typical UAW-represented assembler at GM earned $27.81 per hour of straight-time labor. A typical UAW-represented skilled-trades worker at GM earned $32.32 per hour of straight-time labor.

[missedmyexit]

I'll leave it at that after saying not too many double qualified medical and dental surgeons are morons lol I hope everyone else can take my points as I intended them and not be so defensive. It did amuse me your replies though.

 

 

There is a certain kind of stupidity that you can teach out of someone and no amount degrees can make up for. If you are looking for evidence of this just read the above post.

[missedmyexit]

How much are current UAW auto industry wages? In 2006 a typical UAW-represented assembler at GM earned $27.81 per hour of straight-time labor. A typical UAW-represented skilled-trades worker at GM earned $32.32 per hour of straight-time labor.

 

 

I haven't done any research so don't know what they get paid but you did ask for a source then quoted vague numbers without listing the source.

 

What does "A typical" mean? Just give me the average salary of skill trades workers at GM.

[rickoshea]

There is a certain kind of stupidity that you can teach out of someone and no amount degrees can make up for. If you are looking for evidence of this just read the above post.

 

 

Ditto LOL

[Gary Palmer]

I haven't done any research so don't know what they get paid but you did ask for a source then quoted vague numbers without listing the source. What does "A typical" mean? Just give me the average salary of skill trades workers at GM.

He did.

[Queequeg]

 

I haven't done any research so don't know what they get paid but you did ask for a source then quoted vague numbers without listing the source. What does "A typical" mean? Just give me the average salary of skill trades workers at GM.

 

those are official UAW figures from their website.

I gave you that number: $32.32.

typical means average.

that year was the latest I found records for.

now, back to your $100K.

so you pulled that out of thin air, did you?

[missedmyexit]

He did.

He might have but when I see words like "A Typical" I am thinking they used some fuzzy math. If someone says "A typical Auto Worker" they could be referring to a certain job rather then average of everyone.

I am of the idea you pay your employees as much as you like. At least that was my thoughts before tax money was used to bail people out.

[missedmyexit]

those are official UAW figures from their website. I gave you that number: $32.32. typical means average. that year was the latest I found records for. now, back to your $100K. so you pulled that out of thin air, did you ?

 

 

The 100k comment wasn't me, I don't know what they make just wanted to know where those number came from and if Typical was the actual average or some other strange math.

 

I am not sure I trust the UAW's figures. Seems like they have a vested interest in the perception of what their workers are making.

[Gary Palmer]

He might have but when I see words like "A Typical" I am thinking they used some fuzzy math. If someone says "A typical Auto Worker" they could be referring to a certain job rather then average of everyone. I am of the idea you pay your employees as much as you like. At least that was my thoughts before tax money was used to bail people out.

A typical rate normally describes either the normal or average rate. The tendancy should be to pay people the going rate for their trade/qualifications/job, unless they're freelance and tendered a set price for the work involved or working to a fixed day rate.

[Queequeg]

 

The 100k comment wasn't me, I don't know what they make just wanted to know where those number came from and if Typical was the actual average or some other strange math.

 

sorry, my bad. that was opa john.

I apologize for thinking it was you.

Here's an indepent source from "yahoo answers" more current than the UAW page I quoted earlier-

According to the Indianapolis Star:

Base wages average about $28 an hour. GM officials say the average reaches $39.68 an hour, including base pay, cost-of-living adjustments, night-shift premiums, overtime, holiday and vacation pay. Health-care, pension and other benefits average another $33.58 an hour, GM says. - September 26, 2007 UNITED AUTO WORKERS OFF THE JOB, Striking back at globalization. By Ted Evanoff

that $33.58 number of course includes the retired workforce, so the man/woman on the job isn't seeing all those payouts. That may be GM's cost but the working employee isn't on the receiving end of all that. those include legacy costs.