Members LordBTY Posted April 5, 2012 Members Share Posted April 5, 2012 Note: Although this thread appears to be bullying drummers, I'm looking to get into something a bit broader and deeper here. Edit note: No, this thread is not a personal attack on drummers. Some of you may or may not be aware of Skrillex. Hipsters: please do not comment claiming you were listening to dubstep before it was cool or you understand the genre better than everyone else. That is not the point I'm making Skrillex is one of the most popular producers/electronic composers in the world right now. He's best known for his cheesy dubstep tracks and is the subject of ridicule across the internet. Take this meme for example: And some of his work: WSeNSzJ2-Jw I'm not a huge fan of his stuff myself as I feel it's, as I said, cheesy. However, I often leap to his defense when he is mocked and trivialized. This is because I know that making these tracks is not as easy as it seems. Sure, people can make a patched synth go 'wub wub' and claim they're as good as Skrillex, but that's like playing a chord on a guitar and claiming you're as good as Hendrix. There is alot more going on than what is made apparent. Electronic composers in general often get trivialized no matter how intricate or clever they get. I mean, they don't play an instrument, right? Some classical composers might not play anything in the orchestra; they wouldn't quite get trivialized in the same way. Electronic composition is often very time consuming and requires a solid amount of ear training. You also need to know a lot about the software/hardware you are using along with having a great deal of imagination. This is pretty time consuming and is probably the reason why many producers/electronic composers look ill. This brings me here: drummers. They don't really get mocked outside of musician circles. Drums is an instrument with considerably less apparent technique when comparing it to many other instruments. By this I mean it could take forever to just get a note out of a violin but one could start playing at a basic level in a band relatively quickly. Hypothetically, at a rudimentary level, a child could be introduced to the workings of a kit and potentially perform a basic song to their teachers and parents in a matter of hours (I know this because I was this kid.) A person that practices an hour a day for about a month on the drums would be significantly more ready for a performance than a person who did the same for a tuba. This doesn't mean drummers don't need to practice - they do. They need to develop a great deal of agility and consistency as all musicians do when playing an instrument. There is definitely still a high standard of mastery (I'm stressing this as many people are offended by the concept of drums having a 'low entry point'.) A great pianists does need to develop the agile coordination and rhythmic precision a drummer does. However, a drummer doesn't necessarily need to learn anything about melody. Overall, it seems alot easier to trivialize what a drummer due to the lack of enigmatic technique and melodic/harmonic theory - but they don't really get demeaned outside of the musician world. This brings me on to my next point: rappers. If a rapper is required to develop great rhythmic precision with great amounts of practice without any necessary bizarre technique or understanding of melody, are they not on the same level as drummers musically speaking? They've developed a tightness for a certain style of vocal delivery, exploring it in different ways, much like a drummer has developed a tightness for playing beats, exploring them in different ways. Much like the drums, rapping could also be shown to a kid's parents within a matter of hours and rapping for an hour a day for a month would make you significantly more ready for a performance than a tuba player who did the same. By this logic, a rapper is as musically 'credible' as a drummer. A decent rapper has probably been working hard at it, rapping to himself as he walks along, much like a decent drummer has been working hard at it. Though, I doubt Busdriver (a pretty awesome rapper) would be considered as musically credible as a professional drummer - simply because the voice is not commonly recognized as an instrument in that sense. A pro singer is often regarded as a musician... a rapper is not and a drummer is. If someone said to me they're a musician, I'd ask what they do. If they replied with "I rap" I'd probably nod politely and not take them all that seriously. This is unfair but I think this attitude exists in many people... whether they admit to it or not. Yes, a musician is loosely defined as anyone who makes music but one can't help but think about the 'credibility' involved - especially with the aforementioned forms of musicianship. If someone told me they were a musician and mentioned that they're a drummer, I'd be just as cynical as if they told me that they rap. Unless both the rapper and the drummer were really good and/or knew a good chunk of pitched music theory and/or played a pitched instrument, I'd probably question they're 'credibility' and even their entitlement to the word 'musician.' Again, this is quite a common attitude - rappers in particular with members of the general public. I'm probably biased but I'd take an electronic composer more seriously due to the added dimensions of music involved (by which I mean pitch and harmony) though many people don't take them seriously as - to paraphrase a member of the public - "you have a computer doing it all for you... it's easy" In an ideal world, we wouldn't think about this kind of hierarchy - but in many people's minds, certain musicians are more 'credible' than others and I'm wondering what defines that exactly and what kind of effect this has on people both professionally and personally. So, what are your thoughts? What defines a musician? How credible is a producer, drummer and rapper? What makes people think that one form of making music is more credible than other? How does this affect people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Philter Posted April 5, 2012 Members Share Posted April 5, 2012 They're as good as their music or their performance. If you can't tell the difference, that's your problem, not theirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LordBTY Posted April 5, 2012 Author Members Share Posted April 5, 2012 You're gonna have to elaborate on that. Edit: It's fairly easy to interpret this as an attack on groups, I'm more looking to see how how they're viewed and why they're viewed that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted April 5, 2012 Members Share Posted April 5, 2012 I think his point is that most of the people here judge the "musicality" of something by its end result, not the process required to get there. Generalizing about any group of musicians is moot, because there are really skilled practitioners and really lousy practitioners on any instrument. For example I've often stated I feel DJs are musicians. If people had seen some of the DJs I had, they'd probably agree. But, if all they know of DJs was the guy playing CDs sequentially as someone's wedding, they probably wouldn't. I think few people who come to this forum think any type of music or musician inherently has more or less credibility than any other, although within those groups, some people are clearly more accomplished at their art than others. Even then, though, there's a subjective element as to who is more accomplished, and who isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 144dB Posted April 5, 2012 Members Share Posted April 5, 2012 My short answer is that drummers are definitely musicians... Playing and developing a groove is a musical endeavor, and one that requires a lot of skill, a lot of listening, a lot of talent, and a lot of practice. There are also drummers who cross over into other areas of music. Neal Peart writes most (all?) of the lyrics for Rush. Bill Bruford has extended beyond traditional drumming with the use of electronics and synths. I definitely treat drummers with the same respect as other musicians, if not a bit more due to their critical role with timing and holding a band together. Todd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nat whilk II Posted April 5, 2012 Members Share Posted April 5, 2012 It's certainly true that it takes less time on some instruments than others to achieve a sort of base level competency. You can be plunking out do-re-mi on a piano long before you can even produce something like a listenable sustained note on a violin. You can sound a chord on a harmonica immediately, but not on an acoustic guitar. But once basic competency is there, from there on the sky is the limit on any instrument I think. (ok, maybe not on the cowbell - but who knows?). It's all up for grabs...and whether someone is being a genius on a "simpler" instrument versus a "more difficult" instrument, genius is genius - their subtleties and skills are beyond all that - not comparable. I suppose you could run some sort of assessment on your more run-of-the-mill musicians and maybe come up with some rather arbitrary and dubious conclusions such as "vocalists have the least musical knowledge" or "it's usually the guitar or bass player who is the lead musician in bands" or "keyboard guys tend to be either all feeling and poor skills, or all skills and no feeling" and so on. But these would not be universally true by any means, and operate more like prejudices than insights. Personally, it seems to me that truly great drummers are just as rare as great musicians on any other instrument. The really good musicians don't just fill a role and that's that - they bring some transcendent quality to things that can't be reduced to "oh he can play 128th notes more accurately than anyone else". And all musicians have to learn to listen at a very high level, regardless of their instrument. That's a real leveler that can't be gotten around. nat whilk ii Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members CTStump Posted April 5, 2012 Members Share Posted April 5, 2012 I'd have to say that one of the Drummers I gigged with had a degree in music from a reputable fine arts college. When it came to theory he was Aces above a lot of so called Lead Guitarist's, he was a rare find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted April 5, 2012 Members Share Posted April 5, 2012 I've been aware of dubstep for a while, but I won't claim any of this. Can't stand the stuff! So, what are your thoughts? What defines a musician? How credible is a producer, drummer and rapper? I suppose that depends on the producer, drummer, or rapper. What makes people think that one form of making music is more credible than other? Often, ignorance over other forms of music, close-mindedness, the inability to look at things from other people's points of view, lack of familiarity over someone else's culture or skills. This is going to be a long contentious thread, isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted April 5, 2012 Members Share Posted April 5, 2012 This is going to be a long contentious thread, isn't it? Probably not...seems like everyone pretty much agrees credibility, or lack thereof, lies with individual artists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members deanmass Posted April 5, 2012 Members Share Posted April 5, 2012 What musicis tends to be subjective, but since rhythm is a root of music, I cannot see how drums or percussion are NOT musical. I tend to think of rappers more as creative artists or poets than musicians, but I would not exclude them from either group, even though I m not particularly a fan. To me, all art is is a form of expression. Music is a form of expression, and to me therfore an art form. My interpretation is, dubstep is another tool in an ever widening toolbox. There was a time not long ago hen guitars where not considered instruments. A mac is maybe non traditional, but sampling is not traditional, nd it can be musical. As long as there is expression that is auditory, my opinion is that it can fall under the broad umbrella of music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ernest Buckley Posted April 5, 2012 Members Share Posted April 5, 2012 IMO, Skrillex and "musicians" of this nature are another chapter in audio production where the tools such as a computer/mouse are the devices used instead of the more traditional piano/guitar. I have listened to his stuff, even downloaded his entire record on iTunes to give it a fair shake. Its not my preference for pleasure listening but I can understand why he is so popular and the truth is, he may not be able to hold a candle to my piano/organ/singing abilities but the same could be said about me not being able to hold a candle up to his skills with a laptop! And as far as drummers are concerned... some of the best musicians I know are drummers. End of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ernest Buckley Posted April 5, 2012 Members Share Posted April 5, 2012 I'd have to say that one of the Drummers I gigged with had a degree in music from a reputable fine arts college. When it came to theory he was Aces above a lot of so called Lead Guitarist's, he was a rare find. Yeah, I don`t really want to get into this because its all so subjective but in my experience, guitarists are a dime a dozen and most just want to shred or play really loud. I`ve been privileged to work with some amazing guitarists who can completely take a song somewhere I never imagined but I would say in general, drummers get a bad rap and honestly, I think a lot of it comes from their physical appearance as they are playing. I know that sounds silly but all it takes is one over the top drummer to give all of them a bad rap. Whereas, just holding a guitar, one looks cool. I know that sounds really silly but I think it does play into the overall attitude the general musician population has towards drummers vs. guitarists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members philbo Posted April 5, 2012 Members Share Posted April 5, 2012 My thoughts> the OP has way too much concern for what people think, and way too little concern for how good (or bad) it sounds. If it sounds good it is good. If it sounds bad it is bad. Thoughts (such as opinions about rappers/drummers/skrillex) are transitory things, they do not persist. Unless a thought produces a result, a product, it is no more than a fart on a windy day; it is gone as fast as it arrives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thankyou Posted April 5, 2012 Members Share Posted April 5, 2012 It's certainly true that it takes less time on some instruments than others to achieve a sort of base level competency. You can be plunking out do-re-mi on a piano long before you can even produce something like a listenable sustained note on a violin. You can sound a chord on a harmonica immediately, but not on an acoustic guitar.But once basic competency is there, from there on the sky is the limit on any instrument I think. (ok, maybe not on the cowbell - but who knows?). It's all up for grabs...and whether someone is being a genius on a "simpler" instrument versus a "more difficult" instrument, genius is genius - their subtleties and skills are beyond all that - not comparable. I suppose you could run some sort of assessment on your more run-of-the-mill musicians and maybe come up with some rather arbitrary and dubious conclusions such as "vocalists have the least musical knowledge" or "it's usually the guitar or bass player who is the lead musician in bands" or "keyboard guys tend to be either all feeling and poor skills, or all skills and no feeling" and so on. But these would not be universally true by any means, and operate more like prejudices than insights.Personally, it seems to me that truly great drummers are just as rare as great musicians on any other instrument. The really good musicians don't just fill a role and that's that - they bring some transcendent quality to things that can't be reduced to "oh he can play 128th notes more accurately than anyone else". And all musicians have to learn to listen at a very high level, regardless of their instrument. That's a real leveler that can't be gotten around.nat whilk ii For sure. I play a number of instruments, but the drum kit remains a challenge. I think it takes a special kind of wiring in the body to do that many unrelated things with all four extremities. We just lost our drummer to cancer, and I doubt we could find one like he was. He also sang lead and harmonies, understood lots of the fine tuning kind of things that a great musician would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jimbroni Posted April 5, 2012 Members Share Posted April 5, 2012 guitarists are a dime a dozen and most just want to shred or play really loud. That's been my experience as well. I tend to find that Keyboard players are usually the most knowledgeable, and drummers usually are the most talented, unfortunately they can also be the most drunk. In the end, if you can bring it, then you can bring it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members the stranger Posted April 5, 2012 Members Share Posted April 5, 2012 He's as cheesy as it gets, but he does have a knack for cooking up a wicked drop. He's also a good entertainer, which is exactly what his fans want. I do agree it's easy to trivialize electronic music. This type isn't the type that bothers me, though. It's electronic music that isn't supposed to be electronic music...the modern rock albums that are not people playing music, but computers playing music. In electronic music, this is to be expected. In rock and roll, it'd be the same effect as sending Motley Crue to rehab, church, and get haircuts before recording Shout at the Devil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members CTStump Posted April 5, 2012 Members Share Posted April 5, 2012 Yeah, I don`t really want to get into this because its all so subjective but in my experience, guitarists are a dime a dozen and most just want to shred or play really loud. I`ve been privileged to work with some amazing guitarists who can completely take a song somewhere I never imagined but I would say in general, drummers get a bad rap and honestly, I think a lot of it comes from their physical appearance as they are playing. I know that sounds silly but all it takes is one over the top drummer to give all of them a bad rap. Whereas, just holding a guitar, one looks cool. I know that sounds really silly but I think it does play into the overall attitude the general musician population has towards drummers vs. guitarists. When it comes to shear Ego's between the two groups (Guitarists,Drummers) it's a genuine toss up. Helps to stroke em both to keep the peace at rehearsal and on stage my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chevybusa Posted April 5, 2012 Members Share Posted April 5, 2012 This is always an interesting topic...I remember several bandmates I had back in the day were especially harsh on drummers, always picking on one drummer we had, saying "what do you call someone that hangs out with musicians? A drummer!" I personally disagree...I feel drummers are definitely musicians, as percussion (and in a larger scope, RYTHYM) is such an important part of music that it can't be understated. Of course, how much of a muso they are all depends on their individual abilities...I've seen some drummers that did things that were more musically impressive (to me personally, anyways) than others did on a "real" instrument. As for Skillrex and DJs and people involved in composing and creating electronic music, again, it all depends on the individual artist...I don't consider someone who simply hits play on an iPod or lets records play ("spinning" them every once in a while) to be a "real" musician, but a DJ or artist that creates all the synth sounds, the drum beat, writes the melody/progression, and manually does it all is definitely a muso in my book...even one that just puts loops together, in a way it's kind of like putting notes together, except the notes are whole phrases of music. Now rappers? That's another story altogether...I'm sorry but I have no respect for them as musicians at all..."poets", or even "entertainers", maybe, but just writing some "lyrics" and talking/mumbling over a pre-recorded track (even if they put their own "rythym" to the "lyrics" just doesn't cut it as a musician for me. Again though, that's just my own personal opinion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Geoff Grace Posted April 5, 2012 Members Share Posted April 5, 2012 Each instrument focusses on some musical elements more than others. That lesson has been driven home to me by having learned a number of instruments myself. I started as a piano player; and in the process of learning how to play, I learned about rhythm, harmony, and melody. However, I didn't have to learn about timbre and embouchure until I took up the trumpet. Learning the trumpet strengthened my understanding of melody, but it didn't add much to my understanding of rhythm, and it certainly didn't add to my understanding of harmony. Then, I began taking drum lessons, and that really boosted my understanding of rhythm, polyrhythms, and odd meters. And while I'd already learned to use two hands independently as a piano player, adding two feet to the mix was a new challenge. Beyond that, learning how to play drum rolls was a lot more complicated than most people realize. And of course, the drumming experience doesn't have to be limited to rhythm. I played pitched drums like tympani and other percussion instruments like chimes, glockenspiel, vibes, marimba, and xylophone. While I could play both melody and harmonies on the mallet instruments, it was tympani that added to my abilities the most. It's not a fixed pitch instrument like a piano or even a trumpet. You have to tune it on the fly while playing and get a feel for what pedal positions produce which notes. It's a little like fretless bass in that regard--if a fretless bass had only one string that you had to continually tune as you played. I'd had to learn to tune a trumpet before, but this was much more challenging as far as pitch was concerned. Next, I branched out from piano to other keyboard instruments and in the process, focussed on timbre as I never had before. Keyboards have infinite possibilities for timbre--especially when using expression pedals, aftertouch, or breath controllers, all of which I have modest experience with. Finally, I learned to sing; and in the process, developed a new level of respect for singers. Singing incorporated some of the breath control I had learned from playing trumpet and some of the pitch control I had learned from playing tympani, but in other ways it was much harder. When I sang, I was my instrument; and all of the crutches of the other instruments that I'd learned to play were taken away. (For example, pitch and timbre were no longer givens, as they were with my piano.) My sound was personalized in a way it had never been before. Metaphorically speaking, a singer is stripped bare while all other musicians clothe their sound with instruments. Singers are often grouped with drummers as not being true musicians; but in some ways, both excel in areas that no other musicians do. Personally, I view rappers in the realm of singing as I view drummers in the realm of playing. Rhythm is the focus, but the role isn't necessarily limited to rhythm. In any case, there's an essential musical skill set that needs to be developed. As for DJs, I think the best analogy lies in the art form of collage. Artists who create collages may not be painters, but they are taken seriously as artists nonetheless. It's not a perfect analogy--DJs do more than mashups and are sometimes instrumentalists as well--but it's often a similar creative process. Best, Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted April 5, 2012 Members Share Posted April 5, 2012 Good points, Geoff. As far as rapping, it is rhythmic, and the analogy to a drummer is a good one. Or perhaps to a percussionist. Add to that coming up with rhymes that make people want to listen, shout out repeat. Add to that someone who can captivate a crowd. And add to that someone who need to project an image (which means looking cool, most likely working out like a fiend, etc.), and I'd say that's a rather multi-talented gig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted April 5, 2012 Members Share Posted April 5, 2012 Probably not...seems like everyone pretty much agrees credibility, or lack thereof, lies with individual artists. Looks like you might be right!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted April 5, 2012 Members Share Posted April 5, 2012 This is always an interesting topic...I remember several bandmates I had back in the day were especially harsh on drummers, always picking on one drummer we had, saying "what do you call someone that hangs out with musicians? A drummer!" I mean, I do those jokes too...usually directed at the drummer in our band. But any band that's had to audition drummers knows how difficult it can be to find a good drummer. As for Skillrex and DJs and people involved in composing and creating electronic music, again, it all depends on the individual artist...I don't consider someone who simply hits play on an iPod or lets records play ("spinning" them every once in a while) to be a "real" musician, but a DJ or artist that creates all the synth sounds, the drum beat, writes the melody/progression, and manually does it all is definitely a muso in my book...even one that just puts loops together, in a way it's kind of like putting notes together, except the notes are whole phrases of music. Seems like a good way to describe it. Now rappers? That's another story altogether...I'm sorry but I have no respect for them as musicians at all..."poets", or even "entertainers", maybe, but just writing some "lyrics" and talking/mumbling over a pre-recorded track (even if they put their own "rythym" to the "lyrics" just doesn't cut it as a musician for me. Again though, that's just my own personal opinion... See what you think of my assessment of them above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted April 5, 2012 Moderators Share Posted April 5, 2012 And as far as drummers are concerned... some of the best musicians I know are drummers. End of story. My acoustics instructor in college was Malcolm Chisholm. He engineered Chuck Berry, Muddy Waters, The ChiLites, CSO, lots of early Big Band. Running in the same circles as Swedien. He made the point that in his experience the best musicians he knew were drummers. I personally have known drummers that could take direction along the lines of, "Can you run the track again but this time give us a bigger swell into the 2nd chorus and int the bridge's 1st half just give us a cool hat pattern with kick. That's it. Then in the outro play those fills twice as frequently..." And he'd be listening intently then say, "OK, let's do it." And all the stuff you liked, he did it again. Plus the stuff you asked for him to change. That's one definition of a real musician. Another drummer I knew was a pop rock historian. "How about a little of the straight against the shuffle Elvis That's Alright Mama?" Towers of London XTC bridge feel". He just listened to a lot of great music and internalize it ready for him to retrieve when needed. That's another definition of a real musician. Another plays beautifully and you wouldn't know that he fronts a soul revue on the weekends singing Marvin Gaye and Al Green tunes. He's usually a better singer than the singers he supports on drums. As far as guys like Skrillex? BT, William Orbit, Orbital, Juno Reactor... of course they're musicians. Dr. Dre, Will I Am, those crazy vikings doing Rhianna's stuff. Yes, musicians. I didn't dig the youtube above of Skrillex but I've heard some stuff of his that had me smiling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted April 5, 2012 Members Share Posted April 5, 2012 Maybe one of you guys can post something that you really like by Skrillex. I just haven't liked anything I've heard so far. I definitely like some electronic music, so who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Zooey Posted April 5, 2012 Members Share Posted April 5, 2012 Maybe one of you guys can post something that you really like by Skrillex. I just haven't liked anything I've heard so far. I definitely like some electronic music, so who knows. I like this tune. Skrillex is a skilful arranger and programmer. You're not going to find him looping something and letting it play for 16 or 32 bars. The little minor melody flourishes during the choruses are pretty clever, too. I'm also a big electronic music fan. [video=youtube;TYYyMu3pzL4] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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