The Musical Credibility of Drummers and Rappers... and other things.

[CTStump]

I don't think that's too relevant. More relevant is how complex and trick a beat can get. But my point is you can sit down at a drum kit for the first time and play for about an hour then potentially play to an audience. You couldn't do that with many other instruments. I could do that on the drums anyway.

Let's see you play this "Einstein":

I don't think you could learn that in a hour my friend.

[blue2blue]

 

I don't think that's too relevant. More relevant is how complex and trick a beat can get. But my point is you can sit down at a drum kit for the first time and play for about an hour then potentially play to an audience. You couldn't do that with many other instruments. I could do that on the drums anyway.

You're lucky you're such a natural.

 

Back when I was working in studios I tracked a number of drummers who apparently thought they were naturals.

 

They weren't.

 

 

Speaking of Krupa, here's one of my favorite Krupa bits ever... there's a full band rendition of Krupa's signature, "Drum Boogie," (complete with a spangly Barabara Stanwyck lipsyncing another singer and an ubernerd Gary Cooper as a linguistics professor who realizes there's a whole new language out there called jive) and then, after about 4'00" or so, there's a really brilliant, uh, miniature drum solo. Skip the full band if you're in a hurry -- but don't miss the last minute and change...

 

 

[UstadKhanAli]

I can poke a key on a piano easily. Therefore, a piano is easy to play.

 

I can pluck a string on a guitar easily. Therefore, a guitar is easy to play.

 

 

Sorry, my smart-ass comments for the day.

[Lee Knight]

Go to 3:30... or actually listen for at least a chorus before. This guy doesn't play flash, he plays music. I hear the changes and the lines when he solos.

 

 

[Anderton]

You remind me of Monty Python's "how to play the flute" - "You blow into here, and put your fingers over the holes here."

[blue2blue]

I don't think you could learn that in a hour my friend .

Such a fun version.

 

I remember the first time I heard "Winnetka" (from the Bob Crosby band)... I was totally knocked out by how incredibly hip it was. My idea of swing bands at the time (I was about 13) was that they were all like Glenn Miller or Freddy Martin. It wasn't until many years later when I hit on the idea of giving my old man some swing records on LP for a birthday and started out with Glenn Miller that I started really getting it. My dad was mildly pleased with the Miller. But when I got him some Benny Goodman with Hamp the next time around, he opened up, saying, well, sure, Miller and the like made a lot of memorable music, but he liked the harder swinging, jazzier stuff. So I started digging into it and realized the range in big band and swing was, in many ways, as broad and diverse as pop in any era since then.

[CTStump]

Such a fun version. I remember the first time I heard "Winnetka" (from the Bob Crosby band)... I was totally knocked out by how incredibly hip it was. My idea of swing bands at the time (I was about 13) was that they were all like Glenn Miller or Freddy Martin. It wasn't until many years later when I hit on the idea of giving my old man some swing records on LP for a birthday and started out with Glenn Miller that I started really getting it. My dad was mildly pleased with the Miller. But when I got him some Benny Goodman with Hamp the next time around, he opened up, saying, well, sure, Miller and the like made a lot of memorable music, but he liked the harder swinging, jazzier stuff. So I started digging into it and realized the range in big band and swing was, in many ways, as broad and diverse as pop in any era since then.

 

 

I used to go to some Jazz dives off Sunset Blvd. back in the seventies it was great cause you got fusion and swing the variety was mind boggling and excellent at the same time. It's been a while since I've been there I Imagine there all closed today.

[Lee Flier]

I can poke a key on a piano easily. Therefore, a piano is easy to play. I can pluck a string on a guitar easily. Therefore, a guitar is easy to play. Sorry, my smart-ass comments for the day.

Well really, this doesn't deserve anything more than a smartass comment. Anybody who really thinks drummers are somehow lesser musicians because "it's easy to hit a drum and get a sound out of it" (or for any other reason really), I have no idea what to say to that person. Except "I'm glad you feel that way - it leaves more great drummers for ME."

[Geoff Grace]

And still, we got a pretty decent thread out of this--complete with interesting thoughts and enjoyable music.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[LordBTY]

I originally said it takes less technique to play drums than a lot of other instruments. This was in reference to getting to performance standard. This is definitely true. I could practice a very simple drum part for two hours and be pretty much ready to just about perform it. This couldn't be said for the something like the flute or the violin... or even the piano!

 

It also takes a lot less practice to rap to a performance standard. This is also true and reflects my point about people who somehow think a rapper isn't credible but a drummer is.

[Lee Knight]

I don't know what you mean be "credible". I'm pretty sure I don't like the concept though. Sorry, but two hours on the drums does not constitute a performance ready musician.

[CTStump]

 

It also takes a lot less practice to rap to a performance standard. This is also true and reflects my point about people who somehow think a rapper isn't credible but a drummer is.

 

 

I been waiting to hear your reply but it seems you want to keep digging that hole your falling into and pretty soon you will bury yourself. Why are you so down on Drummers? is this your way of getting a rise. Mission Accomplished my friend.

 

I'm beginning to wonder if this is what your getting at.

 

edit: the reason for my question is because in my 30+ years of gigging I would have gone nowhere without percussion, it's absolutely essential for dance and noticed if not present in any performance. You might think that secretly I harbor the same feeling's as you do but that is definitely not the case.

 

Also to take my point further, when I hired and played with Drummers I would joke with them on song structure like watch out for that modulation after the second chorus, 9 out 10 the would get that joke and laugh my friend.The same with the next song is in B#.

[beatpoet]

When I said this, I was referring to how a violinist or saxophone player may take a very long time just to get a steady sounding note when first starting but with drums, things are alot more self explanatory.

 

 

So what if someone can pick up a simple beat within an hour? It sounds just as bad as someone screeching out bum notes on a violin or saxophone. The violinist or saxophonist can't hold a steady note and the drummer can't hold a steady beat.

[Jorge7]

I think we have all wasted enough time on this troll. He obviously has no serious contribution to make to any of us, and he is completely unmoved by our responses. It seems he can't read any better than he can play drums or than he can think, which seems not to be any better than a random person on the street who has no knowledge of music. How did he sucker us into wasting so much time?

[Anderton]

Because SSS takes troll threads, and turns them into things with cool videos and worthwhile sidebar discussions

 

But y'know, he's actually right. I picked up a drum machine, pushed play, and became a drummer in under 30 seconds! The best I can do with guitar is push a button and have it tune itself.

[Lee Flier]

I could practice a very simple drum part for two hours and be pretty much ready to just about perform it.

 

LOL... you sure as hell wouldn't be ready to perform in MY band.

 

Pretty clearly you have no idea what drummers actually do and what it takes to do it. Or you're a troll.

[CTStump]

I wonder how long it took Neil to learn this 1 day by the OP estimation, being 3 piece without the drums poor Getty would have to fill a giant hole.

 

Link do to restriction:

[Lee Flier]

The flashy stuff is merely the obvious stuff. If you put 5 different drummers with different (or even similar) levels of experience and ability in a room and had them each play a very simple beat, such as the OP thinks he'd be ready to perform in a couple of hours, they'd all sound and feel very different from each other. And that difference represents the difference between whether your entire band is going to be great or suck. That's how important the drummer is, no matter how simple a part is required.

[UstadKhanAli]

 

I originally said it takes less technique to play drums than a lot of other instruments. This was in reference to getting to performance standard. This is definitely true. I could practice a very simple drum part for two hours and be pretty much ready to just about perform it. This couldn't be said for the something like the flute or the violin... or even the piano! It also takes a lot less practice to rap to a performance standard. This is also true and reflects my point about people who somehow think a rapper isn't credible but a drummer is.

 

 

Why don't you post some videos of you playing drums after practicing the part for two hours? Or rapping? Since neither one requires much practice time, actually, why don't you lay down a fat groovin' beat, then bust some rhymes over it? Thanks.

[UstadKhanAli]

And still, we got a pretty decent thread out of this--complete with interesting thoughts and enjoyable music.

 

I think so!

[Lee Flier]

Why don't you post some videos of you playing drums after practicing the part for two hours? Or rapping? Since neither one requires much practice time, actually, why don't you lay down a fat groovin' beat, then bust some rhymes over it? Thanks.

[Folder]

This went with me comparing drummers to rappers - neither of which are necessarily required to learn anything about melody or harmony.

 

 

Music has three basic elements. Rhythm, Harmony and Melody.

Drummers and rappers only utilise one of these elements.

 

Music without Melody and or Harmony can become boring pretty quickly.

[Anderton]

Drums are tuned.

[Jorge7]

Music has three basic elements. Rhythm, Harmony and Melody. Drummers and rappers only utilise one of these elements. Music without Melody and or Harmony can become boring pretty quickly.

 

 

There are drummers and there are drummers. Some drummers don't know much about rhythm, harmony or melody, and just hold time and play beats that could be done better by computers, so your complaints about drummers are true, for some drummers. There are drummers, however, who use all 3, rhythm, melody and harmony in their playing. Here is a counterexample to your claim that drummers don't use melody or harmony. The drummers in this video are singing back and forth on the drums with polyrhythmic melodies and harmonies among the different drums and with the piano, bass and other instruments. If the drums aren't tuned right, it throws the harmonies of the whole song off.

 

[Geoff Grace]

 

Music has three basic elements. Rhythm, Harmony and Melody. Drummers and rappers only utilise one of these elements.

 

You're forgetting timbre, without which there is no arranging, orchestration, or synthesis. Timbre is perhaps the greatest musical frontier left to be explored, as so much has already been done with rhythm, harmony, and melody, and so many timbres have yet to be created.

 

Every instrument and voice utilizes timbre; and while you're correct that drums and rap rarely make melodies, they both do utilize pitch, which adds a great deal of interest to their sound.

 

You're also forgetting dynamics, although that's pretty easy to do in this compressed age.

 

So in reality, there are four musical elements to drums and rap: rhythm, timbre, dynamics, and pitch. And of course, some drums--like steel drums and tympani--also make use of harmony (although, admittedly, tympani rarely get past single notes and even more rarely beyond intervals) and more traditional melody.

 

Best,

 

Geoff