The Musical Credibility of Drummers and Rappers... and other things.

[LordBTY]

 

I haven't added much to this thread because I have a pretty broad definition of what it means to be a musician. For example I think modern DJs are musicians, because they manipulate a variety of musical elements including rhythm, harmony, and melody to produce a unique end result. As suggested by LordBTY, whenever someone thinks DJing is easy, I tell them to try it. It's hellishly difficult to do really well. I think arrangers are musicians. I think Bob Moog was a musician because while he wasn't a virtuoso instrumentalist, he "got" what music was about to the point where he created tools embodying such a profound musical truth that his basic concepts laid down almost fifty years ago have remained essentially unmodified. As to rappers, suppose ONLY rappers had existed and then someone invented pop vocals. People would say the pop vocalists are pretty lame because they don't know how to do really clever internal rhyming, or be able to treat vocals as a percussive instrument. So much of perception is frame of reference, and perspective. Another point is skill set. A drummer has to be almost a professional athlete in order to have the endurance to pound on drums for hours at a time. A keyboard player can play sitting down. Both have to work hard at what they do, but how a task is apportioned among various disciplines is different. No one disses keyboard players as not real musicians because they aren't semi-athletic.

 

 

+1

[Lee Flier]

 

I think you're blowing this way out of proportion. It's a discussion of people's attitudes, not a complaint with regards to them. I've explained that I and other kinds of musician aren't taken seriously and that can affect one's success.

 

 

There's simply no evidence that it has affected anyone's success. Loads of people have succeeded at being rappers, electronic musicians, etc. Loads more have not - same as with any other type of music. If you are depending on other people to pave the way for your success, you aren't going to succeed anyway. People who succeed in ANY type of art generally do it in spite of established orthodoxy, not because of it.

[Anderton]

 

There's simply no evidence that it has affected anyone's success. Loads of people have succeeded at being rappers, electronic musicians, etc. Loads more have not - same as with any other type of music. If you are depending on other people to pave the way for your success, you aren't going to succeed anyway. People who succeed in ANY type of art generally do it in spite of established orthodoxy, not because of it.

 

 

I think that for most people who consume music, it's just kind of a wash of sound they either like or dislike on an emotional level. They don't really care how the results were produced. As one person exclaimed when we were listening to music and I said "wow, listen to that bass line!" - "Bass...they're the flat instruments, right?"

[Lee Flier]

Yeah, exactly. People mostly don't care. Do something that moves them and they don't care what it is. Hell, even I don't, really. I may be a musician but I judge music as a fan - either something about it grabs me or it doesn't. It's very much a visceral response, and to me that's part of what makes music magical.

[LordBTY]

 

There's simply no evidence that it has affected anyone's success. Loads of people have succeeded at being rappers, electronic musicians, etc. Loads more have not - same as with any other type of music. If you are depending on other people to pave the way for your success, you aren't going to succeed anyway. People who succeed in ANY type of art generally do it in spite of established orthodoxy, not because of it.

 

 

Well, I'd rather you didn't make this a personal thing and suggest that I don't have enough drive but I think it's definitely true that how seriously people take you affects your career. The perceived 'credibility' of musicians is something that affects us all. There is an audience for most genres of music but that doesn't mean you're not going to be disregarded as nonsense more so than others. Yes, one will have to put up with it but, as I pointed out in the OP with Skrillex, people's snobbery may affect their taste. You could argue that this is just taste in general, I suppose. However, one might find that no one is willing to support you as you're not doing something 'credible.'

 

e.g. a rapper going on a talent show compared to a guitarist or violinist.

 

This is more the kind of discussion I had in mind for this thread.

[LordBTY]

 

I think that for most people who consume music, it's just kind of a wash of sound they either like or dislike on an emotional level. They don't really care how the results were produced. As one person exclaimed when we were listening to music and I said "wow, listen to that bass line!" - "Bass...they're the flat instruments, right?"

 

 

I'd disagree with this. I know a person who heard a synth sound and only started liking it when he was told it was a cello run through some effects pedals. I see a similar thing in many people with regards to what 'real' music - often declaring that most electronic genres or modern genres aren't credible in any way. A similar thing extends to singers that write their own songs - there are definitely people who care about that.

[Lee Flier]

Well, I'd rather you didn't make this a personal thing and suggest that I don't have enough drive but I think it's definitely true that how seriously people take you affects your career. The perceived 'credibility' of musicians is something that affects us all. There is an audience for most genres of music but that doesn't mean you're not going to be disregarded as nonsense more so than others. Yes, one will have to put up with it but, as I pointed out in the OP with Skrillex, people's snobbery may affect their taste. You could argue that this is just taste in general, I suppose. However, one might find that no one is willing to support you as you're not doing something 'credible.'

 

I'm sorry but this is total bull{censored}. And Skrillex is a perfect example - are you going to tell me he's not successful?

 

If anything, many of the MOST successful acts have gotten attacked more than anyone for "lack of credibility." They don't give a crap whether anyone thinks they're "credible" - they're laughing all the way to the bank!

[Jimbroni]

Who the hell is Skrillex?

[Folder]

As to rappers, suppose ONLY rappers had existed and then someone invented pop vocals. People would say the pop vocalists are pretty lame because they don't know how to do really clever internal rhyming, or be able to treat vocals as a percussive instrument. So much of perception is frame of reference, and perspective.

 

 

There are many people who think that melody is the most important element of music.

 

Many people would rather listen to a song with a good catchy melody vs. a song with someone shouting in a monotone. A lot of people don't like rap music because they consider it "inferior" to melodic forms of music. Especially people of a certain age who grew up with melodic music.

 

Why is it so politically incorrect to make a musical value judgement on this forum?

[LordBTY]

I'm sorry but this is total bull{censored}. And Skrillex is a perfect example - are you going to tell me he's not successful? If anything, many of the MOST successful acts have gotten attacked more than anyone for "lack of credibility." They don't give a crap whether anyone thinks they're "credible" - they're laughing all the way to the bank!

 

Even so, there is a sense of satisfaction in the majority of people respecting your art. I suppose Tupac is greatly respected in the hip hop community, but there are still many people who act as though what he did wasn't 'credible'. If he were still alive, I doubt he would have appreciated his work not being taken seriously (or he wouldn't give a f*** judging by some of his songs but the general point still stands.)

[blue2blue]

Who the hell is Skrillex?

If you don't know, you probably don't want to know.

 

[Anderton]

 

There are many people who think that melody is the most important element of music.

 

 

As do I.

 

 

Many people would rather listen to a song with a good catchy melody vs. a song with someone shouting in a monotone. A lot of people don't like rap music because they consider it "inferior" to melodic forms of music. Especially people of a certain age who grew up with melodic music.

Of course. As I said before, frame of reference works into this. A lot of classical Indian music has no modulation or transposition. Does that make it inferior? Well, as they're using scales with 22 tones and more, you could say traditional Western classical music is inferior because everything's quantized to 12 out of tune tones (well, except for the 5th).

 

 

Why is it so politically incorrect to make a musical value judgement on this forum?

It has nothing to do with political correctness. This is an internet forum. If you present an opinion with which people disagree, expect them to engage you in a discussion. You're obviously welcome to think whatever you want, and like whatever you want; it's subjective. People's reactions to your opinions are equally subjective, and they're entitled to express those opinions.

[Lee Knight]

LordBTY,

 

I found an old tape of me being interviewed on a college radio station. I was 19 and absolutely full of it. In a semipompus voice I heard myself say, "Actually I believe disco is the lowest form of music." As if I was some learned musicologist. I believed I was speaking some soft of insightful truth and loved the opportunity to spread my wisdom. In 1978 it meant a lot to me. What a load. I'm no closer to the truth now but age has a least made me aware of that fact.

 

Things like credibility and how we perceive how an audience perceives us. All the weightless sorts of concerns. Just get busy while you're on fire and do everything to keep yourself on fire.

 

Don't waste time on bull{censored}.

 

P.S. I love Disco.

[Folder]

As to rappers, suppose ONLY rappers had existed and then someone invented pop vocals. People would say the pop vocalists are pretty lame because they don't know how to do really clever internal rhyming, or be able to treat vocals as a percussive instrument. So much of perception is frame of reference, and perspective.

 

 

I think you could argue that rappers DID exist before someone invented pop vocals.

The original musicians probably were rappers. Before melody and harmony there was rhythm.

 

People vocalising in rhyme or chanting.

 

Over time came melody, harmony and advanced musical systems.

 

The idea that after centuries of musical evolution that people would all of a sudden find monotonic vocals is frustrating for many musicans.

[Folder]

It has nothing to do with political correctness. This is an internet forum. If you present an opinion with which people disagree, expect them to engage you in a discussion. You're obviously welcome to think whatever you want, and like whatever you want; it's subjective. People's reactions to your opinions are equally subjective, and they're entitled to express those opinions.

 

 

Well the original poster has been attacked over seven pages because he had the gall to suggest that drummers, rappers and electronic music producers may not have the same credibility in some people's minds as other musicians.

 

I see nothing offensive in his original post. He asked some reasonable questions especially for his age. He was immediately attacked and his questions were virtually ignored.

 

I can assure you that millions of people do not give drummers, rappers and electronic music producers the same credibilty as other musicians. I'll bet that "secretly" some of the posters on this forum look down on some rappers, drummers and electronic music producers .

 

The irony of it all is that in the original post he was DEFENDING drummers, rappers and electronic music producers .

[LordBTY]

I think it is fair to say I may well regret the things I say in the future.

 

Although it doesn't bother me too much as many of my peers respect me musically, in casual conversation I do sometimes get looked down upon and this does bother me slightly. I don't really look down on any kind of music or musician, I don't quit know what you were getting at there.

 

To reiterate, I'm not really looking down on anyone but I do think the way different kinds of musicians are viewed is relevant somehow.

 

Well the original poster has been attacked over seven pages because he had the gall to suggest that drummers, rappers and electronic music producers may not have the same credibility in some people's minds as other musicians. I see nothing offensive in his original post. He asked some reasonable questions especially for his age. He was immediately attacked and his questions were virtually ignored. I can assure you that millions of people do not give drummers, rappers and electronic music producers the same credibilty as other musicians. I'll bet that "secretly" some of the posters on this forum look down on some rappers, drummers and electronic music producers . The irony of it all is that in the original post he was DEFENDING drummers, rappers and electronic music producers .

 

This is true. Though, I was more looking at how drummers are viewed as musicians and rappers/electronic musicians aren't.

 

Thanks for backing me up here - I do feel as though most people disregarded what I actually said.

[Anderton]

I think you could argue that rappers DID exist before someone invented pop vocals. The original musicians probably were rappers. Before melody and harmony there was rhythm. People vocalising in rhyme or chanting. Over time came melody, harmony and advanced musical systems. The idea that after centuries of musical evolution that people would all of a sudden find monotonic vocals is frustrating for many musicans.

 

But vintage is happening!

[Anderton]

 

Well the original poster has been attacked over seven pages because he had the gall to suggest that drummers, rappers and electronic music producers may not have the same credibility in some people's minds as other musicians. I see nothing offensive in his original post. He asked some reasonable questions especially for his age. He was immediately attacked and his questions were virtually ignored.

 

 

To be fair, though, to his credit he went back and edited his post once he found out people weren't necessarily taking his post the way he had intended it. I think what people keyed in on was what was at the end, IOW, the last thoughts they were left with in this post: "To me, I wouldn't take a drummer seriously as a musician in the same way I wouldn't take a rapper seriously as a musician if they couldn't do anything else musically."

 

Dealing with a text-only medium has its drawbacks.

[Anderton]

I can assure you that millions of people do not give drummers, rappers and electronic music producers the same credibilty as other musicians.

 

Honestly, in over 50 years in the music business the thought had never even crossed my mind. I mean, they're musicians, right? Who am I to judge them? Besides, I play guitar better than they do :)

[CTStump]

 

I can assure you that millions of people do not give drummers, rappers and electronic music producers the same credibilty as other musicians. I'll bet that "secretly" some of the posters on this forum look down on some rappers, drummers and electronic music producers . The irony of it all is that in the original post he was DEFENDING drummers, rappers and electronic music producers .

 

 

I suspected as much, why should display the same type of cynicism and paranoia. With years of experience performing we all know that if people are entertained then the show work's. No one here has spoken ill of Rappers, drummers or the OP my friend, all we have been doing is explaining our belief's whether you or the OP agrees or not. I thought that was what the OP was after thinking we "secretly" harbor disrespect for the a fore mentioned performers but this is not true and has not been proven the way I read this thread. I have to say the willy nilly off hand remarks by the OP get's him the response he's not looking for and the way he keeps up with explaining his position then dropping another BOMB warrants the responses he is getting my friend.

 

If you want the response to OP to be taken seriously it has and if there seems to be a lack respect it's it's been shown towards the people who answered with genuine interest.

 

edit: I should mention that I come from a generation that didn't demand respect, we earned it, respectfully.

[Geoff Grace]

There are many people who think that melody is the most important element of music. Many people would rather listen to a song with a good catchy melody vs. a song with someone shouting in a monotone. A lot of people don't like rap music because they consider it "inferior" to melodic forms of music. Especially people of a certain age who grew up with melodic music.

 

That's all well and good, but rap--while generally not melodic--is also generally not monotone. In other words, rap usually glides through a variety of pitches--kind of like normal speech or sprechstimme--rather than staying on one single note, like the robotic voices of old science fiction movies.

 

Examples:

 

Sprechstimme (with pitch notation displayed):

 

[video=youtube;veUJxETj7-c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veUJxETj7-c

 

Monotone Robotic Voice (no pitch notation necessary):

 

 

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[Lee Flier]

There are many people who think that melody is the most important element of music. Many people would rather listen to a song with a good catchy melody vs. a song with someone shouting in a monotone. A lot of people don't like rap music because they consider it "inferior" to melodic forms of music. Especially people of a certain age who grew up with melodic music. Why is it so politically incorrect to make a musical value judgement on this forum?

 

 

I don't know; some people seem to think that's OK and others don't. I certainly make musical value judgements here all the time. And I don't like most electronic music or rap. That doesn't mean, though, that I think a rapper necessarily has less skill than a melodic pop singer. It's just a different kind of skill and, depending who it is, a really good rapper might have ability superior to a mediocre singer. In other words, my tastes are my tastes but someone's skill level depends entirely on them and how far they take their craft, not the type of music and whether I like it. The show STOMP is fantastic, and that's "just" a bunch of kids making percussive music with found objects. But don't tell me they're not serious musicians.

 

Yes, I think there are a lot of hacks out there who make it apparent they have little work ethic and are just looking for an easy way to look like they're musicians, when they're not. And yes, it can be frustrating to see that. I agree that rap and electronic music are full of people like that, just like grunge, punk and indie/noise. Maybe none of that stuff is to your taste, but it doesn't mean that those who are really good at any of them aren't highly skilled.

[Lee Flier]

I can assure you that millions of people do not give drummers, rappers and electronic music producers the same credibilty as other musicians. I'll bet that "secretly" some of the posters on this forum look down on some rappers, drummers and electronic music producers .

 

Well it's no secret in my case that I look down on a lot of electronic musicians and rappers. But that doesn't mean I don't recognize the ones that are good, even if it's not to my taste. I've said many times here that I think certain technologies foster laziness and a crappy work ethic, and of course those technologies are more prominent in some genres than others. But that doesn't mean there's anything inherent in those genres that makes people who play them any less "real musicians." It just means there are fewer really skilled people who manage to stand out above the legions of crap that exist due to the "low entry point." I don't like the vast majority of rap or electronic music, but you'll never hear me say that it's not "real music" or that those performers can't possibly be "real musicians." Pretty obviously a lot of them are.

[LordBTY]

 

But that doesn't mean there's anything inherent in those genres that makes people who play them any less "real musicians." It just means there are fewer really skilled people who manage to stand out above the legions of crap that exist due to the "low entry point." I don't like the vast majority of rap or electronic music, but you'll never hear me say that it's not "real music" or that those performers can't possibly be "real musicians." Pretty obviously a lot of them are.

 

 

'Low entry point' - what do you mean by this?

[Lee Flier]

 

'Low entry point' - what do you mean by this?

 

 

Basically what you referred to earlier (and I did too in other posts) - the fact that a lot of people seem to think they can slap a preprogrammed beat on and mumble a few idiotic rhymes over it and call themselves a rapper. Just like a lot of people think they can practice a beat on a drum kit for a couple of hours and call themselves a drummer. It may be easier, like you said, than getting a sound out of a saxophone or a violin, so more people can delude themselves into thinking they're ready for prime time when they're actually not. There are loads of people who do this, and if that's all someone has heard of a particular genre, they might think it's ALL like that. Which, of course, it isn't. And it takes just as much work as any other instrument or genre to actually become really good at those things.