The Musical Credibility of Drummers and Rappers... and other things.

[blue2blue]

Yoking the topic to Skrillex is like yoking a discussion of singers to Britney Spears.

 

 

As someone who was once fairly deeply involved in electronica-oriented music and production -- and who has, at this point, now been playing guitar for 4 decades -- I tend to bristle at those who automatically put down all electronically created or influenced music.

 

But that is not to say that I feel like one can't be critical of mediocre -- but cannily marketed -- artists. My whole musical life, I've had little patience for big selling purveyors of crass, formulaic pap. Now that I'm finally firmly in the get-off-my-lawn-you-damn-kids age bracket, I'm not about to stop now.

 

 

PS... if writers want people to read all of what they've written, it's helpful if they make it easier. Centered, ragged justified text is a serious vexation to read. (Also, it looks corny as hell, like a greeting card from the 50s.)

 

PPS... Those who play other instruments but (seriously) deride drummers as a class, even stooping so low as to suggest they are not musicians -- really, really tick me off.

 

A little friendly joking is OK, I think. Many instruments have their time-honored putdowns and jokes. Cellists, French horn players, lead guitarists, stand up singers, bagpipers, banjo players, etc, they've all got some good natured ribbing over the years and, overall, I think a little of that is healthy and fun.

 

But there really do appear to be some people who will insist that drummers are not musicians. And that's just nuts. To me, it shows an absolutely astounding ignorance and lack of insight. Ditto for rappers. Are there bad drummers and bad rappers -- just like there are bad guitarists and keyboardists? Absolutely. And some are really bad. But the best rappers (I don't always agree about who they are, mind you), to my way of thinking, must have a complex and deep understanding of the rhythms and movements of the music with which they work, a demanding skill set that rivals many others in pop music.

[chevybusa]

I mean, I do those jokes too...usually directed at the drummer in our band. But any band that's had to audition drummers knows how difficult it can be to find a good drummer. Seems like a good way to describe it. See what you think of my assessment of them above.

 

Right on man! Yeah I DEFINITELY feel you on how difficult it can be to find a good drummer (and not only a good one, but one that isn't a complete flake and can actually be relied upon LOL) As for your assessment of rappers, I read it and I definitely agree with you about the whole working the crowd thing and all that, that's why I used the term(s) "poet" and/or "entertainer". And at SOME level I agree about the analagy to a percussionist, however, I truly belive that the vast majority of rappers out there don't even think about it in terms of musicality AT ALL, even rythmically, it's all about how they can randomly "spit" their "lyrics" over a pre-recorded song...I just can't help but think that given every rap song I've ever heard and every rap video I've ever seen, the vast majority of them belive that it is all about making money and projecting an image of how they want people to think they actually live rather than having anything to do with creating music. When they write their "lyrics" and figure out how they are going to "spit" or talk or mumble them over the pre-recorded song, how it sounds musically (or even rythymically) is the furthest thing from their mind, again like I said I really think that all they are concerned with is how it will make them money and how it will portray their "image" and lifestyle (which in itself is part of the whole making money thing). Again though that's just my own personal opinion.

[blue2blue]

PS... In discussing Monsters and Sprites elsewhere, someone said people who accused Skrillex's music of being squashed and having no dynamics were nuts, 'just look at those drops'... Having everything squashed to -6 dB RMS except for a couple of drops is hardly what passes for musical dynamics. To my way of thinking.

[LordBTY]

On rapper's NOT being musicians:

 

HpP-8tJ-9Js

 

The rapper definitely adds a significant rhythmic dimension here.

[Lee Knight]

 

 

 

I love that.

[UstadKhanAli]

And at SOME level I agree about the analagy to a percussionist, however, I truly belive that the vast majority of rappers out there don't even think about it in terms of musicality AT ALL, even rythmically, it's all about how they can randomly "spit" their "lyrics" over a pre-recorded song...I just can't help but think that given every rap song I've ever heard and every rap video I've ever seen, the vast majority of them belive that it is all about making money and projecting an image of how they want people to think they actually live rather than having anything to do with creating music. When they write their "lyrics" and figure out how they are going to "spit" or talk or mumble them over the pre-recorded song, how it sounds musically (or even rythymically) is the furthest thing from their mind, again like I said I really think that all they are concerned with is how it will make them money and how it will portray their "image" and lifestyle (which in itself is part of the whole making money thing). Again though that's just my own personal opinion.

 

 

Well, I agree that a lot of rap leaves me completely flat, like the kind you describe. But we must allow that not all rap is like that, right? That'd be like judging pop solely on what's on the radio, wouldn't it? If I just listened to a Top 40 station, I might say, "Wow, I really hate pop." But we all know that really great stuff is being done in pop as well as other genres.

 

[video=youtube;0nICLfVg9J0]

 

This might not get you running to the rap section of iTunes, but I'd like to think that it's pretty good and rather musical and rhythmic.

 

Here's a couple more by Orishas:

 

[YOUTUBE]PvNuxTM19Dk[/YOUTUBE]

 

[YOUTUBE]U6Yc-uVPo8s[/YOUTUBE]

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Now, this following stuff is really quite trippy and creative. This is Spoek Mathambo:

 

[video=youtube;puWapHzP44o]

 

[video=youtube;UKfwSFI8LhQ]

 

Anyway, see what you think of some of this stuff. It's not all gangstas and bling, and it's creative and rhythmic and urgent and vital, in my opinion. And musical.

[UstadKhanAli]

 

I like this tune. Skrillex is a skilful arranger and programmer. You're not going to find him looping something and letting it play for 16 or 32 bars. The little minor melody flourishes during the choruses are pretty clever, too. I'm also a big electronic music fan.

 

 

I don't know that I'm a huge electronic music fan, but I definitely have a fair amount of it in my collection. Anyway, this might be the best thing I've heard from Skrillex so far. It's inventive. It's not my favorite thing, but I can see why someone would like this. There's also a playfulness, an element of fun, that is really cool.

 

Thanks for posting that!! Greatly appreciated!!!!

[chevybusa]

 

Anyway, see what you think of some of this stuff. It's not all gangstas and bling, and it's creative and rhythmic and urgent and vital, in my opinion. And musical.

 

 

LOL Now see here's where definitions come into play, cuz I didn't consider ANY of what you posted rap! haha. What you posted definitely has musical merit...the rapping is just an addition, just like adding bongos or congas or timbales or whatever to a regular guitar bass drums vox band....The rap that I'm referring to is the kind where it's just a guy talking/mumbling over a pre-recorded track that consists solely of a drumbeat, bassline, and minimal synth work or various instrument hits/loops thrown in here and there...the popular or mainstream rap, I guess...I can definitely see where you're coming from now cuz like I said what you posted I don't consider rap at all, I just consider it music with some rap thrown in for a bit of "flavor" or whatever. Again though, that's just my opinion, it really is all dependent on the individual listener in the end, and even though there are commonly agreed upon guidelines, everyone has a different definition of what a certain "genre" of music or type of muso really is...

[UstadKhanAli]

Well, think of this way. Just like there's a lot of different kinds of pop, there's also a lot of different kinds of rap. And not all of it is the kind that you really can't stand (well, I can't stand it either, so I should say "we"! ).

 

Now, these next two songs by cLOUDDEAD are also considered rap. This is more on the "fringes" in the rap community, that's for sure. I believe these guys are part of this more "outside" rap community in Oakland, IIRC:

 

[video=youtube;RvRE4MYs2RQ]

 

This is cLOUDDEAD.

 

Here's another one. This stuff is considered pretty weird by the rap community. But it's still considered rap. This next one, the rapping starts a little ways in.

 

[video=youtube;7H43ZE8_v5I]

 

With the Orishas stuff, the rapping tends to be more integrated in with singing. A lot of the choruses, although not all, are sung, and it's more integrated. The Spoek Mathambo stuff, OTOH, is pure rapping. I gave both as an example of the many varieties that rap can be. There's a lot more, too. I have a bunch of Tibetan rap, and some West African rap as well.

 

I'm not an expert or aficionado of rap, but I do want to emphasize that there's some really different stuff out there under the umbrella of rap.

[Zooey]

There is a lot of great hip hop out there. I'm sure a lot of you guys have this album from the nineties. A voice, a sampler, and a DJ. Is that "rap" enough?

 

[video=youtube;AVIKMZIRKaU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVIKMZIRKaU&

[LordBTY]

 

This is always an interesting topic...I remember several bandmates I had back in the day were especially harsh on drummers, always picking on one drummer we had, saying "what do you call someone that hangs out with musicians? A drummer!" I personally disagree...I feel drummers are definitely musicians, as percussion (and in a larger scope, RYTHYM) is such an important part of music that it can't be understated. Of course, how much of a muso they are all depends on their individual abilities...I've seen some drummers that did things that were more musically impressive (to me personally, anyways) than others did on a "real" instrument. As for Skillrex and DJs and people involved in composing and creating electronic music, again, it all depends on the individual artist...I don't consider someone who simply hits play on an iPod or lets records play ("spinning" them every once in a while) to be a "real" musician, but a DJ or artist that creates all the synth sounds, the drum beat, writes the melody/progression, and manually does it all is definitely a muso in my book...even one that just puts loops together, in a way it's kind of like putting notes together, except the notes are whole phrases of music. Now rappers? That's another story altogether...I'm sorry but I have no respect for them as musicians at all..."poets", or even "entertainers", maybe, but just writing some "lyrics" and talking/mumbling over a pre-recorded track (even if they put their own "rythym" to the "lyrics" just doesn't cut it as a musician for me. Again though, that's just my own personal opinion...

 

 

Well, manner of those rappers have worked pretty hard to develop certain improvisational skills and a particular vocal delivery that works well - there are terrible rappers and there are good rappers.

 

A lot of popular rappers have been doing it since they were very young and are practically obsessed with it. It's the attitude here that makes me struggle to see drummers as 'real' musicians.

 

Surely if a rapper is only writing lyrics to a rhythm then a drummer is only hitting things to a rhythm... right? There's a variety of vocal tones used and there's a variety of tones used in drumming.

 

I think we might also need to think about world music that involves amelodic work - some African music involves vocal work very similar to rapping; people often accept that as a form of music. Why are people looking at certain groups as not being musicians?

[Anderton]

Analyze Steve Gadd's drumming sometime, I know some people who did when they were developing "groove templates." Apparently he can control whether he lags or pushes the beat by milliseconds, and he does this consistently...it's not a random process. Like, he'll hit the hi-hat 3ms ahead of the beat consistently for a chorus, then lag back on the snare by 10ms for a verse. That's a degree of control I can't even conceive of as being humanly possible.

[Kotch]

I can't say I care much about Skrillex. To me, that clip sounds like something I might have made twenty years ago on my old Amiga 500 with Protracker. In fact, quite a lot of electronic music sounds to me like something from out of 1988.

 

But I'm smart enough to know it's just me. The fact I had my fill of this stuff twenty years ago doesn't mean the end of all music is nigh.

[nat whilk II]

 

Analyze Steve Gadd's drumming sometime, I know some people who did when they were developing "groove templates." Apparently he can control whether he lags or pushes the beat by milliseconds, and he does this consistently...it's not a random process. Like, he'll hit the hi-hat 3ms ahead of the beat consistently for a chorus, then lag back on the snare by 10ms for a verse. That's a degree of control I can't even conceive of as being humanly possible.

 

 

 

I believe it - Peter Erskine is another one of those almost inhumanly accurate drummers. And one of my favs.

 

This is for another thread, but I just hafta say - that "randomizing" feature for timing that the DAWs have these days for "humanizing" rhythm tracks really seems to miss the point IMHO.

 

nat whilk ii

[Philter]

 

Now rappers? That's another story altogether...I'm sorry but I have no respect for them as musicians at all..."poets", or even "entertainers", maybe, but just writing some "lyrics" and talking/mumbling over a pre-recorded track (even if they put their own "rythym" to the "lyrics" just doesn't cut it as a musician for me. Again though, that's just my own personal opinion...

 

 

I think there is a lot of bias and ignorance involved for many people when it comes to rap. I've heard bad rap and good rap and the spread is just as wide as it is in any genre of music. Good rappers master pitch, rhythm, dynamics, expression, phrasing, and lyrical content. The rap genre has spawned its own kind of producer/performer dynamic between the guys who produce the beats and the vocalists who perform over them. Every genre has its own dynamic relationships like this. How anyone can consider that to not be music or mastery must have something to do with bias and ignorance, because what else is left after we ignore the actual musical evidence?

 

Lately when I listen to contemporary music to keep abreast of trends, there are two genres out in front: electronica/dance and urban/rap/hip-hop. Those are the stations where I hear the freshest production ideas, the most impassioned performances, and the most relevant lyrical content. The rock stations are retreading crap from 20 years ago, even the alt-rock stations. I grew up listening to rock and metal as a small-town white kid, so it's sad to see "my own" musical culture in such sorry shape. The country stations are cookie-cutter, lowbrow elevator music. Everything that is vital in modern popular music revolves around these two categories (dance and urban) where people are the most likely to turn up their nose. And you know what? That's fine, less competition for me, because I am happy to work with dance and urban acts. This is where new ideas are happening and where people are not afraid to push the boundaries.

 

It doesn't surprise me at all that people feel free to claim they have no "respect" for rappers. That's our society in a nutshell. Maybe you don't like the insinuation, but I believe that in general it's the truth.

[UstadKhanAli]

 

Analyze Steve Gadd's drumming sometime, I know some people who did when they were developing "groove templates." Apparently he can control whether he lags or pushes the beat by milliseconds, and he does this consistently...it's not a random process. Like, he'll hit the hi-hat 3ms ahead of the beat consistently for a chorus, then lag back on the snare by 10ms for a verse. That's a degree of control I can't even conceive of as being humanly possible.

 

 

That's incredible. The only thing that I've realized so far about Steve Gadd is that the guy is in-cred-ible.

[chevybusa]

 

I think there is a lot of bias and ignorance involved for many people when it comes to rap. I've heard bad rap and good rap and the spread is just as wide as it is in any genre of music. Good rappers master pitch, rhythm, dynamics, expression, phrasing, and lyrical content. The rap genre has spawned its own kind of producer/performer dynamic between the guys who produce the beats and the vocalists who perform over them. Every genre has its own dynamic relationships like this. How anyone can consider that to not be music or mastery must have something to do with bias and ignorance, because what else is left after we ignore the actual musical evidence? Lately when I listen to contemporary music to keep abreast of trends, there are two genres out in front: electronica/dance and urban/rap/hip-hop. Those are the stations where I hear the freshest production ideas, the most impassioned performances, and the most relevant lyrical content. The rock stations are retreading crap from 20 years ago, even the alt-rock stations. I grew up listening to rock and metal as a small-town white kid, so it's sad to see "my own" musical culture in such sorry shape. The country stations are cookie-cutter, lowbrow elevator music. Everything that is vital in modern popular music revolves around these two categories (dance and urban) where people are the most likely to turn up their nose. And you know what? That's fine, less competition for me, because I am happy to work with dance and urban acts. This is where new ideas are happening and where people are not afraid to push the boundaries. It doesn't surprise me at all that people feel free to claim they have no "respect" for rappers. That's our society in a nutshell. Maybe you don't like the insinuation, but I believe that in general it's the truth.

 

 

You guys both missed my point entirely...the question was about "rappers", not hip hop producers, not urban production teams, not dance and urban acts, not traditional African music, etc. etc., but rappers. When I think of the term rapper I think of someone who has had a a complete song written and recorded for him that he most likely had no input whatsoever on, and if he wrote his/her own lyrics then the whole point is to put them to the music in a way to make money and a way to convey a certain lifestyle and image. I'm sorry, but just from what I see of RAPPERS (again, just the guys that take the mic) the musical content of what they are doing is the furthest thing from their mind, sure they may think about the rythym a bit to make their lyrics fit, but aren't thinking about ANYTHING musical when they are rapping, they're thinking about "stacking paper" and portraying a certain image. And again I'm not saying this is the case with every singe rapper on the planet, just the vast majority of them. And again, for the FOURTH {censored}ing time, that's just my own personal opinion, you're MORE than entitled to disagree. Also, Philter, how you got from my opinion about rappers to making a statement about THE WHOLE OF SOCIETY (i.e. "nutshell") in general is just pseudo-intellectual nonsense, one man's opinion on a forum has absolutely NOTHING to do with society.

[UstadKhanAli]

I like the Dr. Octagon song, Zooey, thanks! Interesting unsettling effect behind that otherwise laid-back groove.

[Zooey]

 

I like the Dr. Octagon song, Zooey, thanks! Interesting unsettling effect behind that otherwise laid-back groove.

 

 

Glad you enjoyed it. Dr Octogon was a really interesting project. The production is Dan the Automator, who is probably best known for producing the first Gorillaz album. The whole album has kind of a sci-fi/horror feel to it to match Kool Keith's persona of Dr. Octogon. The turntablist scratching during the outro is DJ Qbert who more or less redefined what a turntable could be capable of.

[UstadKhanAli]

I've played with a really good turntablist before. Holy crud, that guy was an amazing, amazing musician. It's like having a percussionist, keyboardist, horn player, vocal player, whatever, all in one band. Very rhythmic and tight. Wow.

 

I didn't konw that was Dan the Automator, whom I have definitely heard of before!! Cool!

[Anderton]

 

I believe it - Peter Erskine is another one of those almost inhumanly accurate drummers. And one of my favs. This is for another thread, but I just hafta say - that "randomizing" feature for timing that the DAWs have these days for "humanizing" rhythm tracks really seems to miss the point IMHO. nat whilk ii

 

 

But it's perfectly appropriate if you label the slider "number of beers consumed by the drummer just prior to the gig."

[Anderton]

 

I've played with a really good turntablist before. It's like having a percussionist, keyboardist, horn player, vocal player, whatever, all in one band. Very rhythmic and tight. Wow.

 

 

Sorta like this? He's mostly getting flashy here 'cause it's a trade show demo, but I heard him at other times where the playing was more deliberate and less manic.

 

[video=youtube;puLLdc6aDqw]

[Temple of Light]

The cutting edge, is impossible to honestly explain, the only ones who truly know where it is have gone over it...Hunter S Thompson.

The same could be said of this clown too, getting paid and laid no doubt. This is the edge of software/programming/FX processing.

Music? Seriously?

Depends on the age group you're in I guess...

Might work for a video game...

[LordBTY]

 

You guys both missed my point entirely...the question was about "rappers", not hip hop producers, not urban production teams, not dance and urban acts, not traditional African music, etc. etc., but rappers. When I think of the term rapper I think of someone who has had a a complete song written and recorded for him that he most likely had no input whatsoever on, and if he wrote his/her own lyrics then the whole point is to put them to the music in a way to make money and a way to convey a certain lifestyle and image. I'm sorry, but just from what I see of RAPPERS (again, just the guys that take the mic) the musical content of what they are doing is the furthest thing from their mind, sure they may think about the rythym a bit to make their lyrics fit, but aren't thinking about ANYTHING musical when they are rapping, they're thinking about "stacking paper" and portraying a certain image. And again I'm not saying this is the case with every singe rapper on the planet, just the vast majority of them. And again, for the FOURTH {censored}ing time, that's just my own personal opinion, you're MORE than entitled to disagree. Also, Philter, how you got from my opinion about rappers to making a statement about THE WHOLE OF SOCIETY (i.e. "nutshell") in general is just pseudo-intellectual nonsense, one man's opinion on a forum has absolutely NOTHING to do with society.

 

 

Every single drummer I've worked with has told me they don't need to memorize their drum parts, they can just improvise something every time. Therefore, I'm surely justified in saying that they're not musicians but big dumb guys who hit things with sticks.

 

I mean... that's my opinion... right?

[dramey]

 

Sorta like this? He's mostly getting flashy here 'cause it's a trade show demo, but I heard him at other times where the playing was more deliberate and less manic. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puLLdc6aDqw

 

 

I won't disagree that that take a lot of skill and even a good ear for music, but there really isn't a whole lot of difference between what he is doing, and those kids that post videos of themselves playing Dragonforce in Guitar Hero on expert. Sady both of them would probably be quite adapt at playing a real instrument.

 

I can chop up some midi drum loops for recording but that doesn't make me a drummer.