The Musical Credibility of Drummers and Rappers... and other things.

[Ernest Buckley]

Every single drummer I've worked with has told me they don't need to memorize their drum parts, they can just improvise something every time. Therefore, I'm surely justified in saying that they're not musicians but big dumb guys who hit things with sticks. I mean... that's my opinion... right?

Yes, thats your opinion and you`re entitled to it. Its also a statement about the drummers you play with. The drummers I play/played with have charts they write for themselves in which they notate their parts because every song they play is different and they write a specific drum part for it. Also, many drummers I have worked with take a leadership role in the band and don`t just sit there and "hit things with sticks".

[Philter]

 

You guys both missed my point entirely...the question was about "rappers", not hip hop producers, not urban production teams, not dance and urban acts, not traditional African music, etc. etc., but rappers. When I think of the term rapper I think of someone who has had a a complete song written and recorded for him that he most likely had no input whatsoever on, and if he wrote his/her own lyrics then the whole point is to put them to the music in a way to make money and a way to convey a certain lifestyle and image. I'm sorry, but just from what I see of RAPPERS (again, just the guys that take the mic) the musical content of what they are doing is the furthest thing from their mind, sure they may think about the rythym a bit to make their lyrics fit, but aren't thinking about ANYTHING musical when they are rapping, they're thinking about "stacking paper" and portraying a certain image. And again I'm not saying this is the case with every singe rapper on the planet, just the vast majority of them. And again, for the FOURTH {censored}ing time, that's just my own personal opinion, you're MORE than entitled to disagree. Also, Philter, how you got from my opinion about rappers to making a statement about THE WHOLE OF SOCIETY (i.e. "nutshell") in general is just pseudo-intellectual nonsense, one man's opinion on a forum has absolutely NOTHING to do with society.

 

From my point of view you have an invented idea of how rap tracks are getting made. I've worked with rap groups numerous times since the late 90's and my experiences with them in the studio are nothing like what you describe.

 

It's like if I said guitarists aren't musicians because all they do is learn how to plunk along to heavy metal songs by reading tab from magazines. You smear an entire genre by characterizing that genre based on the behavior of its least-skilled (or even fictitious/imaginary) practitioners. Why would you do that to rap and not, say, hard rock or metal, where generations of people with tattoos have been assailing us with talentless muted power chords and crappy singing?

 

You said you have no respect for rappers... you didn't qualify that at all to say amateurs or whatever. Your language, not mine. You presented a poorly formed (basically indefensible) argument that contradicts real-world experience. Don't get bent out of shape getting called out on it.

 

 

Now rappers? That's another story altogether...I'm sorry but I have no respect for them as musicians at all..."poets", or even "entertainers", maybe, but just writing some "lyrics" and talking/mumbling over a pre-recorded track (even if they put their own "rythym" (pro tip: rhythm) to the "lyrics" just doesn't cut it as a musician for me. Again though, that's just my own personal opinion...

Whatever dude. Withholding respect from people based on false perceptions is a good way to lose my respect. I remain convinced you speak from ignorance or bias or some combination thereof.

[philbo]

 

Every single drummer I've worked with has told me they don't need to memorize their drum parts, they can just improvise something every time. Therefore, I'm surely justified in saying that they're not musicians but big dumb guys who hit things with sticks. I mean... that's my opinion... right?

 

 

It's a forum; you are entitled to any opinion you want...

 

Here's mine:

Improvisation is the key to creative performances. It allows the magic to happen. If you are just perfectly replaying what you did in the studio, why even be there? Just send a CD for the band to play along with! How boring is that?

[WRGKMC]

Some will see a musicians live performance as being the most important item.

Weather its a memorized pattern or improvised doesnt matter so long as its a

great performance. The only thing that may influence a listerns preference here is

if they heard a pop song a thousand times then see a live performance and the

improvision isnt to their tastes, then the listerner may not think as highly of them.

 

(the band Boston had that problem. Their performances couldnt match their recordings)

 

 

Some will view the recorded performance as either good or bad. Normal non musicians wont

give a flying leap how the recording was made no matter if it took a thousand takes or was

built in single notes like a Frankenstein project. The exception would of course a live recording

of a bands material. Listeners would expect the live recording to at least match or out do the studio

recordings.

 

Then you have your musicians and Audio techs who understand all of these items.

Most will appreciate all methods of music production and reserve the right to appreciate

one method over others. They can have respect for someone who is financially successful

and hate the music, or they can love the music and realize the recording wont make a dime

because its not commercially paletable.

 

I grew up listening and appreciating Musician's Musicians. Guys so good there was no way

they would ever hit the top of the charts because the casual public often didnt "get it".

it may have been an interest to me because It was a resource for improving a weakness

of my own, but I may have been surprised to find that same band made a small nudge or two

on successive recording and stepped into the big money. I can name dozens of bands I listened

to when they were practically nobodies and became mega stars, because thay had something there

from the start.

 

As far as drums, I've worked with so many over the years. I think the most important item is the

drummer has to have a great everything, great tempo, dynamics, ability to smoothly shift his time

through different tempos without hesitation or studdering.

 

I'd say the most of all his ability to intuitively read body language and predict what the other players are

going to do before they do it then smoothly follow through backing them.

That often comes about with experience working with the other players.

 

Without these items the the band will suffere from some flaw in their foundation built upon a predictable

series of events that occur in the rythum section. It will prevent the band from fully exploring their maximum

potentials and limit their artistic abilities to go that extra step beyond words and compel the listeners to bond

with the musicians as they listen to them perform.

 

Of course I am biased to good live performance over anything built of bricks no matter how good it is.

I prefer to think of a person performing in back of a song over a robot, as stupid and outdated as that may be,

There again I think most perfer real sex over cyber sex if shes good looking when given the choice.

[UstadKhanAli]

Have we adequately shown that "rap" encompasses many different approaches, not just someone boasting about "bling" or "money" or whatever? I'd like to think we have.

[Geoff Grace]

Every single drummer I've worked with has told me they don't need to memorize their drum parts, they can just improvise something every time. Therefore, I'm surely justified in saying that they're not musicians but big dumb guys who hit things with sticks. I mean... that's my opinion... right?

Sarcasm?

[video=youtube;raVqiQhU-Fw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raVqiQhU-Fw

Best,

Geoff

[chevybusa]

 

Every single drummer I've worked with has told me they don't need to memorize their drum parts, they can just improvise something every time. Therefore, I'm surely justified in saying that they're not musicians but big dumb guys who hit things with sticks. I mean... that's my opinion... right?

 

 

Well...everyone else's posts to this said it better than I could! LOL

[chevybusa]

 

From my point of view you have an invented idea of how rap tracks are getting made. I've worked with rap groups numerous times since the late 90's and my experiences with them in the studio are nothing like what you describe. Since you've got so much experience, why not list all the rap groups you've worked with? It's like if I said guitarists aren't musicians because all they do is learn how to plunk along to heavy metal songs by reading tab from magazines. You smear an entire genre by characterizing that genre based on the behavior of its least-skilled (or even fictitious/imaginary) practitioners. Why would you do that to rap and not, say, hard rock or metal, where generations of people with tattoos have been assailing us with talentless muted power chords and crappy singing? That was pretty much what LordBTY said, see everyone else's responses. You said you have no respect for rappers... you didn't qualify that at all to say amateurs or whatever. Your language, not mine. You presented a poorly formed (basically indefensible) argument that contradicts real-world experience. Don't get bent out of shape getting called out on it. Saying I have no respect for rappers is an OPINION, NOT AN ARGUMENT, you {censored}ing moron...and who;s the one that;s REALLY getting bent out of shape here? LOL Whatever dude. Withholding respect from people based on false perceptions is a good way to lose my respect. I remain convinced you speak from ignorance or bias or some combination thereof.

 

 

(I actally wrote some replies in the above quote)

 

Oh {censored}, someone on the internet has lost respect for me. Guess it's time to get out my Mossberg 500 and eat a .00 12 guage buckshot blast. Goodbye HC!!!! LOL Seriously though since I'm speaking from ignorance and bias, again I implore you to list all those rap groups youve worked with since the late 90's.

 

Seriously man I'm done with this back and forth {censored}...you obviously have a strong opinion and are entitled to it, that's wonderful, but stop running your mouth cuz no one gives a flying {censored}, myself included.

[beatpoet]

Drums is an instrument with considerably less technique when comparing it to many other instruments.

 

 

I have to take exception to that I'm afraid, that's completely wrong.

[Lee Knight]

I'm really lucky. I've never played with (professionally I mean) a bondheaded drummer. They've all been really musically insightful. They really look at song form and see the vast potential for building an exciting and musical roller coaster ride.

Now front men? Forget about it. Fun to party with after the show though.

[CTStump]

I think this question needs to be asked, does the OP play the drums competently or Rap with the best of the best? It takes skill and talent to excel at both. there is a misconception being thrown out about musical prowess and fundamental theory here, any decent Drummer or rapper is adept in the rhythmic sense and has the ability to understand composition i.e. song structure, emphasis etc. I'm beginning to get the feeling there is a little baiting going here and it's bordering on the absurd. Why start this if not to start an argument.

[UstadKhanAli]

Lord BTW wrote in his OP: Drums is an instrument with considerably less technique when comparing it to many other instruments.

I think this question needs to be asked, does the OP play the drums competently or Rap with the best of the best? It takes skill and talent to excel at both. there is a misconception being thrown out about musical prowess and fundamental theory here, any decent Drummer or rapper is adept in the rhythmic sense and has the ability to understand composition i.e. song structure, emphasis etc. I'm beginning to get the feeling there is a little baiting going here and it's bordering on the absurd. Why start this if not to start an argument.

I don't know whether the OP intended this as baiting, but almost every time someone posts about whether rappers or drummers should be regarded as musicians or things of this nature, it turns into this feud. That's why my funny little comment near the beginning that said, "This is going to be a long, contentious thread, isn't it?"

That said, I love that most people who have been posting in this thread seem to recognize that they are musicians, and can be every bit as skilled as more "traditional" sorts of instrumentalists.

[LordBTY]

I think this question needs to be asked, does the OP play the drums competently or Rap with the best of the best? It takes skill and talent to excel at both. there is a misconception being thrown out about musical prowess and fundamental theory here, any decent Drummer or rapper is adept in the rhythmic sense and has the ability to understand composition i.e. song structure, emphasis etc. I'm beginning to get the feeling there is a little baiting going here and it's bordering on the absurd. Why start this if not to start an argument.

I've played drums for a few days well enough to convince people that I was a legitimate drummer. I was in hospital at the time and every other day we played on instruments. I didn't do anything fancy, but holding up a beat with the occasional fill was kind of self explanatory. I also played drums for my GCSE music. It doesn't mean much, I simply went to drums because I was only rapping, singing and producing the time... couldn't play anything else.

But still, that's all beside the point; I was aiming to question how people view certain kinds of musicians and challenge any snobbery that people have. This whole thing stems from me seeing Skrillex bashed online and thinking to myself "but... the average producer/electronic composer is required to get significantly more complicated with a much broader and more advanced understanding of music than the average drummer." This went with me comparing drummers to rappers - neither of which are necessarily required to learn anything about melody or harmony.

[Jorge7]

This brings me here: drummers. They don't really get mocked outside of musician circles. Drums is an instrument with considerably less technique when comparing it to many other instruments. This doesn't mean drummers don't need to practice - they do. They need to develop a great deal of agility and consistency as all musicians do when playing an instrument. A great pianists does need to develop the agile coordination and rhythmic precision a drummer does. A drummer doesn't necessarily need to learn anything about melody, though. ... Every single drummer I've worked with has told me they don't need to memorize their drum parts, they can just improvise something every time. Therefore, I'm surely justified in saying that they're not musicians but big dumb guys who hit things with sticks. I mean... that's my opinion... right?

 

 

@LordBTY: These statements either reflect your poor skills at being sarcastic, or reveal both your ignorance of different forms of music and drumming and your inability to find good drummers to work with. To say that playing drums requires less technique than other instruments, for example piano, oboe, guitar or violin, is a huge and incorrect overgeneralization. There are many different styles and levels of drumming and many different types of music in which drums are used. Some styles of music admit only extraordinarily simple styles of drumming that do require less technique and maybe less musicianship than other styles. Some styles, however, require levels of musical sensitivity, creativity, precision, memory for complex changes, and, yes, virtuoso musicianship, that push the limits of human capability as far as does virtuoso performance of any other instrument. Maybe you have not heard such music. More likely you have heard but not actually listened to such music when you did hear it, and have not appreciated the incredible levels of musicianship required of the drummers. I suspect you would not recognize a virtuoso drummer if you saw one or even played with one. As mentioned above, listen to Steve Gadd. Also listen to Elvin Jones, Art Blakey, and a large number of great jazz drummers who interact with all the other members of the band in musical conversations that are mind boggling and demonstrate extraordinary levels of musicianship.

 

Here is an example of extraordinary musicianship of two Cuban drummers, Pedrito Martinez and Mauricio Herrera. They are as good on drum set as they are on congas, but this clip shows their virtuosity better than other clips I have seen of them playing.

 

 

 

Check out the 2 minute+ break starting at 4:20. That is the longest and most complex arranged break I have ever heard. It takes a high level of musicianship and knowledge of Afrocuban music and clave to even be able to listen to it and understand what they are doing. Everything is "in clave", the repeating 2 bar rhythm Pedro is keeping with his left foot on the little blue block. If the timing of anything they are playing goes off a few milliseconds, it throws the feeling off and is noticeable. I will tell you it did not happen during that clip. This piece involves both rhythm and melody, all done on the congas.

 

You may or may not like it. But please don't tell me there is no musicianship here until you can understand what they are playing enough to tap clave along with the blue block through the piece without missing a beat. I don't know what instrument(s) you play, but you should be able to at least play along tapping a pencil on your desk. Then try memorizing and playing the first 20 seconds of their break starting at 4:20. Don't worry about the last 2 minutes of the break, you will get the point trying to just learn the first 20 seconds.

 

Do you get the urge to reconsider your statements quoted above?

[LordBTY]

I have to take exception to that I'm afraid, that's completely wrong.

 

 

When I said this, I was referring to how a violinist or saxophone player may take a very long time just to get a steady sounding note when first starting but with drums, things are alot more self explanatory.

[blue2blue]

Every single drummer I've worked with has told me they don't need to memorize their drum parts, they can just improvise something every time. Therefore, I'm surely justified in saying that they're not musicians but big dumb guys who hit things with sticks. I mean... that's my opinion... right?

I'm a big fan of improvisation. I've been in all-improv bands on a number of occasions and had an all-improv echo loop band through most of the 90s.

 

Does a good drummer have to 'memorize' his part? Probably not. But if his part is really different each time he plays a song -- and we've probably all run into at least a drummer or two who has a tendency to do that -- it can make it all but impossible to move forward, if the intent is to generally do the songs in roughly the same way each time. If every time the drummer starts up "Song X," it's a different tempo and beat skeleton, it might be an interesting challenge. But it's no way to run an army.

 

Good drummers do tend to remember the structure of songs, the basic beat and vibe, and when other people will be doing what. Inside of that, they may very well vary some small things -- but when the other players are building on your foundation -- changing that foundation every time out can be a real vexation.

 

There ARE a lot of bad drummers out there -- and that's almost always because they were dumb enough to believe that drumming is easy or that you don't have to think or understand music. And that's true -- if your desire is to be a really sh*tty drummer, that's all it takes.

[Zooey]

 

When I said this, I was referring to how a violinist or saxophone player may take a very long time just to get a steady sounding note when first starting but with drums, things are alot more self explanatory.

 

 

Maybe. There's a lot of nuance can go into striking a drum. That should be obvious if you ever played around with a hand drum. An inexperienced player can't even make a single hit sound like a real percussionist. All of those same nuances go into striking a drum head with a stick. It's just less obvious at first, and the volume of the drum makes it harder to hear what's going on, but you'll hear it when you play back the tape. I arrived at this opinion by recording a lot of different drummers. Drummers exist who can make a crappy untuned kit sound pretty good. Sounds like it would defy the laws of physics, but it's true.

[Kotch]

Every single drummer I've worked with has told me they don't need to memorize their drum parts, they can just improvise something every time....

 

 

Every drummer I've heard say that consistently misses all the breaks and endings.

[blue2blue]

I guess I may have more respect for drummers than some because it was a drummer who taught me how to count time. None of my guitar player buddies ever showed me that. Nothing amazing, just the ol' 1-2-3-4, 2-2-3-4, 3-2-3-4... thing. \n

And then he said, here's a hint to you guitarists (he was addressing me -- the bass player -- and his pretty wife who was the guitarist/singer), most pop songs are written by people with simple ideas about time and structure so they're laid out about as orderly as Philadelphia blocks. Verses tend to be 16 or maybe 32 bars, everything in orderly blocks of four.

 

It may sound self-evident to some, but it was a huge revelation to me, since I'd always struggled with trying to figure out the structure of songs, counting bars in standard notation, trying to follow all the repeats and redirects and what not. (Programmers will know what I mean when I say standard notation strikes me like the original Basic -- a hideous spaghetti-logic mess.) I'd always followed along, as best I could with the continual unscrolling of typically published standard notation, but that was usually quite poorly, since the structure was seldom evident when I was bogged down in trying to follow the convoluted structural notations.

 

MIDI was a big relief to me because it finally broke the note and bar information out of the confusing mess that is standard notation and at least put it on a time-pich grid where where it was easy to see the structure and content of the music, instead of burying it beneath a load of eye-befuddling symbols and inscrutable organizational notations.

 

But my drummer pal cut through all the nonsense. Why don't music teachers tell you stuff like that? Why don't they teach you truly basic theory before they start trying to teach you this elaborate and super convoluted and ultimately illogical symbol system before you even know what it attempts to describe.

 

Sometimes it takes a practical, get-the-job-done, two-feet-on-the-ground drummer to cut through the BS.

[Anderton]

When I said this, I was referring to how a violinist or saxophone player may take a very long time just to get a steady sounding note when first starting but with drums, things are alot more self explanatory.

 

Hitting a drum is easy. Hitting it at the exact right time, with the right dynamics, while the other hand and feet are most likely doing other things...that's a little harder

[Anderton]

I became a better guitar player when I started learning how to program beats.

[LordBTY]

Hitting a drum is easy. Hitting it at the exact right time, with the right dynamics, while the other hand and feet are most likely doing other things...that's a little harder

I don't think that's too relevant. More relevant is how complex and trick a beat can get.

But my point is you can sit down at a drum kit for the first time and play for about an hour then potentially play to an audience. You couldn't do that with many other instruments.

I could do that on the drums anyway.

[Anderton]

But my point is you can sit down at a drum kit for the first time and play for about an hour then potentially play to an audience. You couldn't do that with many other instruments. I could do that on the drums anyway.

 

I definitely couldn't. Tambourine, maybe ...it may be that you just have a natural affinity for drums, so you downplay the challenge involved because it doesn't really challenge you. I've seen people just pick up an instrument and it seemed like they'd be playing it for years, they just synched up somehow.

 

For me, it's like mastering. I never thought of myself as a mastering engineer until people told me my mastering was superior to jobs that had been done by some Very Famous Mastering Engineers. That's when I realized that it was just something that came very naturally to me. I never studied to be a mastering engineer, but decades of mixing, performing, tracking, critical listening, etc. developed the skill set I needed without my even knowing it.

[Geoff Grace]

Also, just because something is easier to come to grips with on a rudimentary level doesn't mean that it's easier to excel at on an advanced level. I'd bet you could learn a few dance steps with little problem as well, but that doesn't mean you'll ever rival Mikhail Baryshnikov or Gene Kelly.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[Lee Knight]

 

Also, just because something is easier to come to grips with on a rudimentary level doesn't mean that it's easier to excel at on an advanced level. I'd bet you could learn a few dance steps with little problem as well, but that doesn't mean you'll ever rival Mikhail Baryshnikov or Gene Kelly. Best, Geoff

 

 

Like he ^ said.

 

And even when simple or "easy" things happen on drums, like a tom on 4 right before a chorus. Place by a drummer with musical insight, man, it's a thing of beauty. {censored}, I can hit a 4 before the chorus easy enough. But to do it at a time when it sends shivers down peoples spines, that's not easy or hard, that's artistry.