pros and cons of a neck-through-body vs. bolt on neck?

[honeyiscool]

Originally Posted by PrawnHeed

So would you get better sustain if you drilled holes half way through your neck through and then screwed in some screws?

That wouldn't do anything because the screws aren't clamping anything together at that point.

I think the key to most bolt-on designs is the use of a harder neck than most neck-through.

Hence more sustain and all that.

[PrawnHeed]

Originally Posted by honeyiscool

That wouldn't do anything because the screws aren't clamping anything together at that point.

I think the key to most bolt-on designs is the use of a harder neck than most neck-through.

Hence more sustain and all that.

The screws would be clamping the top of the neck to the back of the neck. I am talking woodscrews like on a bolt on neck where the hole in the back half of the neck is, like the hole in the body of a bolt on, big enough for the unthreaded shaft of the screw to clear.

The neck throughs I've seen use the same maple as bolt ons.

[1001gear]

My general impression,

Neck throughs primary resonance is that 2" x 2" stringer holding the strings tight. This is a continuous piece of wood powered at both ends more or less by the nut and the bridge. I cant see that the wings do anything to deepen or improve the tone. In fact I'd guess the wings would dampen vibrations in the fundamental range. (?)

Cut to boltons which allow the strings to bridge the neck and the entire body forming what has to be a significantly different mechanical ratio.

This seems to bear out -

NTs : plinky natural tone best served with distorted, heavily tweaked tones

Boltons: Exquisite, complex cleans, harmonic detail whether set bright or dark, can drive all manner of grit and a very wide range of distortion

[MorganB]

A bolt is just a way to hold a neck on.For those that think it is better why not make another bolt at the 12th fret....those necks that are broken at the headstock and have an extra bolt ...what tone!

[soundcreation]

Originally Posted by genesis3

that's a bit of a silly statement , for starters science couldn't possibly identify 'best' anything. Best is subjective. Even if you only meant which neck joint type has the most sustain and are using someone else's findings, that STILL doesn't make things you hear and feel by actually playing the instrument irrelevant, given that what you think is generally shaped by experience. Particularly if what you hear and feel runs counter to any study, unless you have no plans to actually play your guitars and you simply want to own them and compile 'scientific' research on them.

I did only mean sustain...and it was pretty clear. Sustain is not subjective. And yes it does make the rest of those things irrelevant. Sorry. It doesn't matter HOW much you THINK neck throughs sustain more because the one or two or 10 examples you've tried just happen to have sustained better than the however many examples of bolt on necks you've tried.

Testimonial. Not to mention the fact that you are ignoring a million other outside variables that may be affecting your perceptions. This tested the ONE issue of which method of neck joint provides the most sustain, by eliminating all the other outside influences. Now..it is only one study...but it is a precedent. So if you think it's wrong it's up to you to propose an experiment that tests that issue alone...controlling all other variables....and then provide the methodology so others can duplicate and confirm your results. If you can do that and prove the study I linked to, wrong...then maybe I will consider your argument.

Until then you are essentially saying science and the scientific method is silly...lol.

[PrawnHeed]

Originally Posted by soundcreation

I did only mean sustain...and it was pretty clear. Sustain is not subjective. And yes it does make the rest of those things irrelevant. Sorry. It doesn't matter HOW much you THINK neck throughs sustain more because the one or two or 10 examples you've tried just happen to have sustained better than the however many examples of bolt on necks you've tried.

Testimonial. Not to mention the fact that you are ignoring a million other outside variables that may be affecting your perceptions. This tested the ONE issue of which method of neck joint provides the most sustain, by eliminating all the other outside influences. Now..it is only one study...but it is a precedent. So if you think it's wrong it's up to you to propose an experiment that tests that issue alone...controlling all other variables....and then provide the methodology so others can duplicate and confirm your results. If you can do that and prove the study I linked to, wrong...then maybe I will consider your argument.

Until then you are essentially saying science and the scientific method is silly...lol.

From the link you posted:

...... Subjects could not detect differences in sustain among neck through, set neck and bolt-on neck configurations.

Although limited in scope, this study does suggest that correlation between sustain and neck joint type may not be of practical significance.

[honeyiscool]

 

Originally Posted by MorganB

A bolt is just a way to hold a neck on.For those that think it is better why not make another bolt at the 12th fret....those necks that are broken at the headstock and have an extra bolt ...what tone!

 

What the hell are you even talking about?

[soundcreation]

Originally Posted by PrawnHeed

From the link you posted:

...... Subjects could not detect differences in sustain among neck through, set neck and bolt-on neck configurations.

Although limited in scope, this study does suggest that correlation between sustain and neck joint type may not be of practical significance.

I never denied that. Still doesn't change the fact that there was a measurable difference in sustain.

"The power analysis results suggest that the relationship between sustain and neck joint type is the reverse of the conventional wisdom on the subject. Longest sustain was associated with bolt-on necks and shortest sustain with neck through construction."

Look....I'm not saying it's a huge issue. But the results are the results. You can't go around saying..."well I KNOW neck throughs offer more sustain"..when there is a controlled study like that proving otherwise.

At most you can just say what the study says..."I can't perceive a difference in sustain based on neck joint type"

[LynchProtoge]

Originally Posted by Flatspotter

This right here is the main advantage of neck-through.

Pretty much this


Along with the fact that bolt ons are easier to repair & adjust, it just depends whats more important.

[Ancient Mariner]

The advantage of a bolt neck is reduced cost of manufacture and ease of replacement. That's it.

I have a variety of guitars including all 3 types of neck attachment, and I can tell you that tone and sustain are characteristic of the guitar as a whole, rather than being defined according to neck fixture. 1 through neck (25 1/2" scale) is acoustically fairly loud and a great rock guitar with lots of sustain, while the other (24 3/4") is acoustically quiet and much sparklier with less sustain. Interestingly both were made in Japan within a couple of years of each other, though probably at different factories.

I like my neck throughs - they play well, have great upper fret access and feel really good to me.

[Santuzzo]

Thanks again everybody for your input.

I will try to find that ESP/ LTD guitar and try it out to see how it feels/sounds/plays.

[Santuzzo]

Thanks again everybody for your input.

I will try to find that ESP/ LTD guitar and try it out to see how it feels/sounds/plays.

[Mind Riot]

Originally Posted by Santuzzo

Thanks again everybody for your input.

I will try to find that ESP/ LTD guitar and try it out to see how it feels/sounds/plays.

Post pics when you do, that guitar is beautiful.

[brandass]

Looks freakin' sweet, good luck with it!

[honeyiscool]

I feel like a lot of people have been down on neck-throughs in this thread, including me, but at the end of the day, it's the most sexy of neck joints. The feel you get when the 22nd fret feels just as easy as the 12th fret is great.

[LynchProtoge]

 

Originally Posted by honeyiscool

I feel like a lot of people have been down on neck-throughs in this thread, including me, but at the end of the day, it's the most sexy of neck joints. The feel you get when the 22nd fret feels just as easy as the 12th fret is great.

 

Musicians expressing uber high regard for their personal preferences & disdain of something, particularly gear? How shockingly uncharacteristic!!

[soundcreation]

Originally Posted by honeyiscool

I feel like a lot of people have been down on neck-throughs in this thread, including me, but at the end of the day, it's the most sexy of neck joints. The feel you get when the 22nd fret feels just as easy as the 12th fret is great.

For me it's the twenty fourth fret...and yeah, it is pretty cool....both looking and playing.

In a way I think that's what makes them a bit over rated.....before I had one, I REALLY wanted one....mostly because of the aesthetics of them. Plus I kind of fell for the myths of the neck throughs having the BEST sustain simply because they WERE neck throughs.

Even now...when I look at something I've always wanted...like an old Jackson or Charvel.....logic tells me I should want a bolt neck..and it would probably be better...but when I see those old soloists and model 6 charvels...they just look so cool...lol.

Of the two I own...one will never be sold, and the other is a very fun guitar with lots of switches and knobs....but I honestly think I'll probably avoid them from this point on.

[jtr654]

My 85 Custom Soloist is still my #1 guitar!

[billybilly]

 

Originally Posted by honeyiscool

I feel like a lot of people have been down on neck-throughs in this thread, including me, but at the end of the day, it's the most sexy of neck joints. The feel you get when the 22nd fret feels just as easy as the 12th fret is great.

 

I really can't say I notice a difference when I am playing my set necks vs bolt-ons on the last few frets. I suppose I should but really don't. Then again, my hands are as big as toilet seats...

[Grant Harding]

 

Originally Posted by Ancient Mariner

The advantage of a bolt neck is reduced cost of manufacture and ease of replacement. That's it.

 

Disagree. Being able to optimise the neck woods and construction AND the body is the real advantage.

[gp2112]

Originally Posted by Belva

Not counter intuitive at all if you understand basic physics and the law of the lever. Screws work with inclined plane tech just like your basic law of the lever. That means that the tighter you crank on the screws, the more force they apply. In that light, it means that you can apply much more compression force between the neck and the body than you can get from either a thru neck or a set neck. It only stands to reason that a bolt neck is the most likely method of having the best sustain and tone transfer.

I must repectfully disagree with the caveat that I am not a physicist nor am I an expert in building a guitar. That being said I feel your statement is wrong and this is why: A neck through being one solid piece of wood (and, one is assuming, relatively free of defects) should be able to carry and sustain tone better than a neck that is, essentially, in two pieces. No matter how hard you crank on the screws of a bolt-on you will still have more separation between the neck and the body than you would with a neck through. That separation will cause some of the sound waves to be "captured" by the gap and the sound waves should bounce back and forth between the neck and the body, thus attenuating the sound, even if it is minimal. That same theory may then apply to a set neck as the bond between two joins will not carry sound as well as a whole, unbroken, piece.

Though, set neck, neck through or bolt-on, the only thing that matters is if you like the sound of the guitar.

[billybilly]

 

Originally Posted by gp2112

I must repectfully disagree with the caveat that I am not a physicist nor am I an expert in building a guitar. That being said I feel your statement is wrong and this is why: A neck through being one solid piece of wood (and, one is assuming, relatively free of defects) should be able to carry and sustain tone better than a neck that is, essentially, in two pieces. No matter how hard you crank on the screws of a bolt-on you will still have more separation between the neck and the body than you would with a neck through. That separation will cause some of the sound waves to be "captured" by the gap and the sound waves should bounce back and forth between the neck and the body, thus attenuating the sound, even if it is minimal. That same theory may then apply to a set neck as the bond between two joins will not carry sound as well as a whole, unbroken, piece.

 

That's a nice story.

[1001gear]

Originally Posted by gp2112

I must repectfully disagree with the caveat that I am not a physicist nor am I an expert in building a guitar. That being said I feel your statement is wrong and this is why: A neck through being one solid piece of wood (and, one is assuming, relatively free of defects) should be able to carry and sustain tone better than a neck that is, essentially, in two pieces. No matter how hard you crank on the screws of a bolt-on you will still have more separation between the neck and the body than you would with a neck through. That separation will cause some of the sound waves to be "captured" by the gap and the sound waves should bounce back and forth between the neck and the body, thus attenuating the sound, even if it is minimal. That same theory may then apply to a set neck as the bond between two joins will not carry sound as well as a whole, unbroken, piece.
Though, set neck, neck through or bolt-on, the only thing that matters is if you like the sound of the guitar.

I think maybe, almost. Clamping the wood into a steel plate not only constricts vibration, it may produce a node - like fretting the system 3/4 of the way. I know with drums, if you over tighten the tuning lug attach points (inside the shell) guess what? The wood gets clamped, significantly reducing sustain. Max tightening a bolton would prolly produce the same results whereas a gluon has a bonded area and no other constriction to vibration. Sustain would be a function of cell structure and integrity.

Now perception of sustain would be related to the difference in the typical scales involved as mentioned elsewhere. Boltons are usually 25.5" and "bright' while almost all gluons are 25" and shorter and favor darker tone. This can work both ways as well.

25.5 = tighter and capable of storing more energy therefore sustaining longer
25 or less is looser and cannot store as much energy therefore sustaining less

25.5 is tighter and constricts lower frequencies therefore deteriorating quicker
25 or less is looser and lets high energy fundamentals to ring through therefore sustaining longer



Neck throughs don't figure into this comparison. They have poor guitar tone.

[honeyiscool]

 

Originally Posted by billybilly

I really can't say I notice a difference when I am playing my set necks vs bolt-ons on the last few frets. I suppose I should but really don't. Then again, my hands are as big as toilet seats...

 

Set necks don't feel any better at higher frets than a streamlined bolt-on (i.e. not Fender) for me. Neck-throughs, however, they definitely do.

[billybilly]

 

Originally Posted by honeyiscool

Set necks don't feel any better at higher frets than a streamlined bolt-on (i.e. not Fender) for me. Neck-throughs, however, they definitely do.

 

I hear ya, but my hands really are as big as toilet seats. At the end of the day, I really don't care as long as the neck itself is nice. Sustain this, sustain that, I find no difference between the two. However, fat necks (which I need or I'll cramp), are hard to find on neck-through guitars. Such is life.