Keyboard players - why so hard to find?

[SpaceNorman]

 

Originally Posted by ggm1960

I had a weird experience a year or so ago when I was rehearsing with a modern metal band for a short time. We tuned guitars to C# and I was switching between guitar and synth/keys/sequences.

I discovered that I could only change the keyboard tuning so far before the sound I was hearing and what I was playing drove me whacky. And so I tried to leave the keys within +/- 1/2 step of the tune we were playing but then switching back and forth between guitar and keys during the same song also drove me whacky.

As an example we'd be playing in A on the guitar but it was actually F# and so then I'd have the keyboard set to play in F# or F and every time I'd switch over to keys I'd have to rethink what key I really wanted to be playing in.

 

I can't imagine switching between two instruments - each tuned differently - within the same song! I regularly use the "keyboard capo" when playing along with the original so that my fingers can play the chords in the key that we've decided to play the song in - yet have it match up with the original's tone. I find that I have to step away for a couple of minutes and listen/play something else when I want to go back to playing in the key that my hands are in. The discrepancy between keys is too great if I simply turn off the transpose button and continue to play.

[tim_7string]

Back as the hair-metal days were beginning to wane (1990), I used to tune my Ensoniq ESQ-1 to 'flat tuning' and just played what I would normally play, although I sometimes liked to challenge myself and see if I could play it using "the black keys."

The other guitarists tuned flat because a lot of the songs we did at the time had flat tuning: Skid Row's "18 And Life" and "I Remember You," Guns N' Roses' "Sweet Child" and "Nightrain," KISS "Lick It Up" and "Calling Dr. Love," etc., plus the main lead singer wanted to give his voice a bit of a break. I would sometimes switch to rhythm guitar on those songs, but I wouldn't actually switch between guitar and keys in the same tune. That would definitely be challenging!

I liked the sound of flat tuning (especially when we later played songs like "Man In The Box"), but I pretty much stay in standard tuning these days (and 7-string standard "BEADGBE" for my 7-string guitars).

[SeniorBlues]

 

Originally Posted by tim_7string

I sometimes liked to challenge myself and see if I could play it using "the black keys."

 

Consider the difference between black keys as sharps as opposed to flats. I'll take the latter every time.

Just for yucks, check out some of the gospel keyboard youtube clips. They're mostly playing in "flat keys". A while back, I introduced Billy Preston's "Will It Go Round In Circles" to the repertoire. Original key - Ab. Try playing the intro in another key, and I'll bet you end up actually liking the original. Another thing - a common gospel bass line in shout songs goes to the major third as the second note, so in Ab you go to "C" - the lowest note on the keyboard/pedals. It seems that each genre has favorite keys . . . and they're all different.

Wish I had been raised in a gospel church . . . .

Yeah, I can't image switching between guitar and keyboard. Definitely a mind bender.

[rocket888]

I once mistakenly transposed my piano up a full step, and the organ down a 1/2 step.

So there were 3 keys...the one the song was in, the one with piano up, and the third with the organ down.

And it was a song where I play organ chords, and take a piano lead.

It was fun...just had to think real hard.

[wades_keys]

Eb and blues go hand in hand.

All black keys for the pentatonic scale - easy as pie.

Ab is a real easy key to play major key stuff in - it's hard to hit a wrong note in that key.

I hate B because of the major third and fifth both being on black keys while the root is on a white key.

It just always felt "off" to me, and I don't like the sound either - like it "wants" to be C (to my ear).

[SeniorBlues]

 

Originally Posted by wades_keys

I hate B because of the major third and fifth both being on black keys while the root is on a white key.

 

A quick way to measure your political clout in a guitar band is to see how they react to proposals to change "Hard to Handle" and "Jumpin' Jack Flash" to keyboard friendly keys. Give them MP3s of Leon Russell doing the latter and Otis Redding doing the former - both in Bb.

If they insist on doing everything in sharp keys, forget it. I ain't your dog.

[SeniorBlues]

 

Originally Posted by rocket888

I once mistakenly transposed my piano up a full step, and the organ down a 1/2 step.

So there were 3 keys...the one the song was in, the one with piano up, and the third with the organ down.

And it was a song where I play organ chords, and take a piano lead.

It was fun...just had to think real hard.

 

Beyond my comprehension . . . .

[tim_7string]

 

Originally Posted by Carl Root

Just for yucks, check out some of the gospel keyboard youtube clips. They're mostly playing in "flat keys". A while back, I introduced Billy Preston's "Will It Go Round In Circles" to the repertoire. Original key - Ab. Try playing the intro in another key, and I'll bet you end up actually liking the original. Another thing - a common gospel bass line in shout songs goes to the major third as the second note, so in Ab you go to "C" - the lowest note on the keyboard/pedals. It seems that each genre has favorite keys . . . and they're all different.

 

I wrote a cool keyboard riff in C#/Db when I was 16. Very dramatic and Rush-like (as in Geddy and crew). It sounds all right in D, but it just has a darker quality in C#. I also wrote a bass riff in G Dorian and tried it in F#/Gb instead and again, it sounded better to my ears "flat."

[cooterbrown]

 

Originally Posted by wades_keys

I hate B because of the major third and fifth both being on black keys while the root is on a white key.

It just always felt "off" to me, and I don't like the sound either - like it "wants" to be C (to my ear).

 

B is my favorite key. It has a tough, funky sound to it.

[ggm1960]

 

Originally Posted by SpaceNorman

I can't imagine switching between two instruments - each tuned differently - within the same song!

 

Musically what I was doing wasn't really that difficult, what made it difficult was that I'm not much of an ace on keyboards to begin with.

The tough part in working with that band was hunting down or creating the various sounds I needed for the songs they were doing. I chose to just use the Reason program because it had everything I needed but I spent an awful lot of time tweaking, looking for, and designing sounds.

After a few practices I dropped out of the group before ever doing a gig because it was just entirely to loud.

[jamieb]

Played a sit-in show with a blues band. Didn't have to carry any gear, since the place had a house B-3/122 and a Yamaha keyboard for piano (the "meat and potatoes" sounds that were perfect for the genre).

Anyway, I show up, and am informed that the band tunes 1/2-step down. So I was having to think in keys like G-Flat and E-flat. Not my favorites to solo in.

Since there was no way to transpose the B-3, I got the brilliant idea to transpose the piano down 1/2 step. (Probably using the logic that if one was in a familiar key, it would make it half as difficult. Did I mention my math skills are somewhat lacking?)

Obviously, my idea didn't fare as well as an earlier poster's attempt at something similar. Thinking in two keys at the same time complicates things exponentially, at least when my feeble mind is involved!

De-tuned piano didn't last too long!

Common sense FAIL!

[pinkfloydcramer61]

 

Originally Posted by jamieb

Played a sit-in show with a blues band. Didn't have to carry any gear, since the place had a house B-3/122 and a Yamaha keyboard for piano (the "meat and potatoes" sounds that were perfect for the genre).

Anyway, I show up, and am informed that the band tunes 1/2-step down. So I was having to think in keys like G-Flat and E-flat. Not my favorites to solo in.

Since there was no way to transpose the B-3, I got the brilliant idea to transpose the piano down 1/2 step. (Probably using the logic that if one was in a familiar key, it would make it half as difficult. Did I mention my math skills are somewhat lacking?)

Obviously, my idea didn't fare as well as an earlier poster's attempt at something similar. Thinking in two keys at the same time complicates things exponentially, at least when my feeble mind is involved!

De-tuned piano didn't last too long!

Common sense FAIL!

 

I assume you were attempting to play piano and organ at the same time, in different keys. I remember SRV relating a story about how he caught Reese Wynans doing just that on a gig- successfully.

RE transpose buttons- what made me quit relying on them was an apparent ADD disorder- I forgot to "reset" at the end of the transposed song..

[wades_keys]

My board doesn't have a transpose button - instead, I have to go into the patch in combi mode and detune each program that it is using.

This works for me because I use one combi per song.

In addition, I note in the combi name the tuning I'm using:

usually something like "bass/b3 dn 1/2"

[vanlatte]

 

Originally Posted by theGman

That's what my girl said...

 

Not so sure I would be bragging about that...

[jamieb]

 

Originally Posted by way2def

I assume you were attempting to play piano and organ at the same time, in different keys. I remember SRV relating a story about how he caught Reese Wynans doing just that on a gig- successfully.

RE transpose buttons- what made me quit relying on them was an apparent ADD disorder- I forgot to "reset" at the end of the transposed song..

 

Yeah, I would try to play with the organ with my right hand (the organ was facing forward and the keyboard was stage left) and piano with my left. Didn't work, OR I'd swap back and forth. Fail also!

Reese is a MONSTER!

[jplanet]

Well, it took a little while, but we have finally welcomed Felipe Troncoso as our keyboard player, and are getting ready to tour!

Some samples of Felipe's earlier work here: http://www.myspace.com/feltronc

[Rich4Once]

It has been a while! Make sure you post tour dates on your site so we can catch you guys live!

[jplanet]

Thanks, Rich! It looks like we'll be announcing some shows, hopefully in the next week or two...

[Tubefox]

1. Keyboards and Synthesizers are expensive. This means that playing keyboard has a far greater barrier to entry than, say, guitar.

2. They're not very "cool." I realize I might be about to go down in flames, so let me start by saying they definitely sound awesome. However, there's not a lot of opportunity to jump around and rock out while playing one.

3. The expected level of skill for a keyboardist is much higher than it is for a bassist or guitarist. This is because (I think) most keyboardists at least started playing keyboard because they took piano lessons for many years, and the skills transfer to keyboard the easiest. So many keyboard players have been playing piano or other keyed instruments since they were four or five, so an "average" keyboardist is far more technically skilled than a "average" guitarist or bassist.

4. Many keyboard and synth players seem to prefer to make music by themselves, as their chosen instruments make this far easier.

[rhat]

 

Originally Posted by Tubefox

1. Keyboards and Synthesizers are expensive. This means that playing keyboard has a far greater barrier to entry than, say, guitar.

2. They're not very "cool." I realize I might be about to go down in flames, so let me start by saying they definitely sound awesome. However, there's not a lot of opportunity to jump around and rock out while playing one.

3. The expected level of skill for a keyboardist is much higher than it is for a bassist or guitarist. This is because (I think) most keyboardists at least started playing keyboard because they took piano lessons for many years, and the skills transfer to keyboard the easiest. So many keyboard players have been playing piano or other keyed instruments since they were four or five, so an "average" keyboardist is far more technically skilled than a "average" guitarist or bassist.

4. Many keyboard and synth players seem to prefer to make music by themselves, as their chosen instruments make this far easier.

 

LOL ,, not cool ,mmmmmm ok. Its not a bad instrument to play ,, you can stand or sit down. There typically isnt very many at any given time in a town that are lookin for a band ,, so your choices are larger than the ones open to guitar players . To me thats pretty cool

[rocket888]

 

Originally Posted by Tubefox

4. Many keyboard and synth players seem to prefer to make music by themselves...

 

Don't think that one is true.

[jplanet]

I think that most of the reasons people have suggested here apply in many ways. There were certainly many people who would have loved to do the gig, but didn't have the time, or it would have been too long of a commute to the city. The vast majority of bands playing original music in NYC do not have keyboard players - probably by choice as that scene caters much more to punk/metal/alternative music, none of which are very exciting for a keyboard player to begin with - so I think that most keyboardists around here simply would not think to look on Craigslist for a gig as they seldom come up...

[SpaceNorman]

 

Originally Posted by jplanet

The vast majority of bands playing original music in NYC do not have keyboard players - probably by choice as that scene caters much more to punk/metal/alternative music, none of which are very exciting for a keyboard player to begin with - so I think that most keyboardists around here simply would not think to look on Craigslist for a gig as they seldom come up...

 

Craigslist isn't a secret for most of us keyboard players. While you're right in that I don't see all that many "good" posts LOOKING for keyboard players on Craigslist - when I post that I am looking for a project and provide a little bit about my background - I have to sort through dozens of responses.

[DevilRaysFan]

Im a bass player that is currently the keyboard player in my current band. I have the luxury of being the very rare "synth guy" as, although I can play honky-tonk piano and blues B3 organ chops, Im heavy with use in synths/samples (and sequencing) for modern pop and dance music. The current band Im in does everything from modern country to "Closer" by Nine Inch Nails and anything classic and current inbetween

The advantage of having bass as my primary instrument is that I know what I heard in my head in band situations and the keyboard player wasnt doing it. Usually this was because a keyboard player is a "Piano Guy" that just wants to play piano through everything (or anything that his weighted action board can do) or an "Organ Guy" that thinks a B3 tone sounds great in everything, regardless of genre. A lot of synth stuff is just pads or synth layers that arent fun for chops guys to play. For me, I like finding those exact sounds, regardless of how simple they are to play so when we do songs like "Lets Go" by The Cars or "Truly Madly Deeply" by Savage Garden, I enjoy getting the sound pallette and playing simple as much as I enjoy playing all the piano chops in the country songs

[SeniorBlues]

 

Originally Posted by DevilRaysFan

Im a bass player that is currently the keyboard player in my current band. I have the luxury of being the very rare "synth guy" as, although I can play honky-tonk piano and blues B3 organ chops, Im heavy with use in synths/samples (and sequencing) for modern pop and dance music. The current band Im in does everything from modern country to "Closer" by Nine Inch Nails and anything classic and current inbetween

The advantage of having bass as my primary instrument is that I know what I heard in my head in band situations and the keyboard player wasnt doing it. Usually this was because a keyboard player is a "Piano Guy" that just wants to play piano through everything (or anything that his weighted action board can do) or an "Organ Guy" that thinks a B3 tone sounds great in everything, regardless of genre. A lot of synth stuff is just pads or synth layers that arent fun for chops guys to play. For me, I like finding those exact sounds, regardless of how simple they are to play so when we do songs like "Lets Go" by The Cars or "Truly Madly Deeply" by Savage Garden, I enjoy getting the sound pallette and playing simple as much as I enjoy playing all the piano chops in the country songs

 

It boils down to your expectations of the keyboard chair . . and everyone's expectations of all the other chairs in the band by extension. I prefer the tone of a Precision over a Jazz bass, but it's not a deal breaker. I like electric hollow bodies, but rarely get to play in a band with one. The voice of your instrument isn't nearly as important as the notes your playing and when you play them . . and by when, I mean your sense of time. Wades_keys refers to a bass player's tone envelope, but the concept applies to everyone instrument. That's what makes a band sound good, not the tone settings.

The keyboard voices I use most of the time are various custom EP patches that sound good (to me). They don't sound like the Wurly, Rhoads, RMI, or whatever, that I used to own. It's not a nostalgia thing.

The Korg SV-1 piano setting gives you the sound of the damper felts brushing against the strings on release !?!? Please . . . . . . .