Members rhat Posted January 28, 2010 Members Share Posted January 28, 2010 I play keys as well. I agree with space ,, you guys are good. Nice stuff. However I would never answer your ad. Its not money. When I listen you your music, the first thing that comes to my mind is, that its going to be a gig were the keyboard player is going to be required to provide you with all the strings, synth , outer space kind of things. All i want to do is just play piano, organ, rhodes, maybe an occasional steel drum part. I would feel like a monkey on a chain doing what you need done. I like soul, I like older rock, I like county , I like beach music. I think what you are running into is that the guys that are good enough to do what you want done ,,, dont really want to be directed like a your band would require. You can hire a studio guy to do it ,,,, but its not anything that a guy would want a steady diet of. Its just not my kind of keyboard playing. Its also going to take a pretty dam good keyboard player to do what you want. It might be a little intimidating for the guys that are into the more soundy type stuff you want. Basically ,, you wont find too many guys that are good enough that want to play that kind of role in a band. Its the kind a thing a studio guy does , just to get you through your CD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rhat Posted January 28, 2010 Members Share Posted January 28, 2010 I play keys as well. I agree with space ,, you guys are good. Nice stuff. However I would never answer your ad. Its not money. When I listen you your music, the first thing that comes to my mind is, that its going to be a gig were the keyboard player is going to be required to provide you with all the strings, synth , outer space kind of things. All i want to do is just play piano, organ, rhodes, maybe an occasional steel drum part. I would feel like a monkey on a chain doing what you need done. I like soul, I like older rock, I like county , I like beach music. I think what you are running into is that the guys that are good enough to do what you want done ,,, dont really want to be directed like a your band would require. You can hire a studio guy to do it ,,,, but its not anything that a guy would want a steady diet of. Its just not my kind of keyboard playing. Its also going to take a pretty dam good keyboard player to do what you want. It might be a little intimidating for the guys that are into the more soundy type stuff you want. Basically ,, you wont find too many guys that are good enough that want to play that kind of role in a band. Its the kind a thing a studio guy does , just to get you through your CD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members toddkuen Posted January 28, 2010 Members Share Posted January 28, 2010 As a keyboard player - I liked your stuff - very cool, but... I hear a significant time investment in terms of programming, high instrument/sound count per song, arranging and sync'ing up with whoever/whatever is the rest of the band - matching sounds, figuring out which parts you can play live versus as a backing track, programming, etc. I ran into an ad - probably not unlike yours - a month or two back - the poster wanted "symphonic, orchestral, blah blah blab..." keys for some metal project. They had cool stuff and good ideas but it was a lot of work just trying to find out what they wanted done. It sounded like it might be fun, I even whipped up "Fall to Earth'" (soundclick below) as demo. They loved it and then... silence. So in the end I figure a project like yours its not worth the bother because - If I want to "just play" I have regular gigs with a couple of projects which involve virtually no setup work - I just sit down and play. - Ditto for friends running open mics - I can just show up and jam (hey, I'm a keyboard player and there's always room for me) - If I have my own complex stuff I whip up a backing track arrangement and just play one of the instruments live (usually my EWI which is easy to carry) at an open mic. I would like to find guys like you to collaborate with and play for but it just never seems to work out. So I just do it alone - I gave up looking for what you're looking for - at least for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members toddkuen Posted January 28, 2010 Members Share Posted January 28, 2010 As a keyboard player - I liked your stuff - very cool, but... I hear a significant time investment in terms of programming, high instrument/sound count per song, arranging and sync'ing up with whoever/whatever is the rest of the band - matching sounds, figuring out which parts you can play live versus as a backing track, programming, etc. I ran into an ad - probably not unlike yours - a month or two back - the poster wanted "symphonic, orchestral, blah blah blab..." keys for some metal project. They had cool stuff and good ideas but it was a lot of work just trying to find out what they wanted done. It sounded like it might be fun, I even whipped up "Fall to Earth'" (soundclick below) as demo. They loved it and then... silence. So in the end I figure a project like yours its not worth the bother because - If I want to "just play" I have regular gigs with a couple of projects which involve virtually no setup work - I just sit down and play. - Ditto for friends running open mics - I can just show up and jam (hey, I'm a keyboard player and there's always room for me) - If I have my own complex stuff I whip up a backing track arrangement and just play one of the instruments live (usually my EWI which is easy to carry) at an open mic. I would like to find guys like you to collaborate with and play for but it just never seems to work out. So I just do it alone - I gave up looking for what you're looking for - at least for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jplanet Posted January 28, 2010 Author Members Share Posted January 28, 2010 Originally Posted by ggm1960 Who's doing all the keys that the songs are based on then? That's me...which leads to the next natural question, which is, why not get a guitarist and then let me play keyboards? Unfortunately, guitarists tend to know the least about playing in a professional environment - most say, "ok, maybe I can bring some of my riffs in"...which isn't how this band works - the songs are composed over a period of months... Originally Posted by rhat I play keys as well. I agree with space ,, you guys are good. Nice stuff. However I would never answer your ad. Its not money. When I listen you your music, the first thing that comes to my mind is, that its going to be a gig were the keyboard player is going to be required to provide you with all the strings, synth , outer space kind of things. All i want to do is just play piano, organ, rhodes, maybe an occasional steel drum part. I would feel like a monkey on a chain doing what you need done. I like soul, I like older rock, I like county , I like beach music. I think what you are running into is that the guys that are good enough to do what you want done ,,, dont really want to be directed like a your band would require. You can hire a studio guy to do it ,,,, but its not anything that a guy would want a steady diet of. Its just not my kind of keyboard playing. Its also going to take a pretty dam good keyboard player to do what you want. It might be a little intimidating for the guys that are into the more soundy type stuff you want. Basically ,, you wont find too many guys that are good enough that want to play that kind of role in a band. Its the kind a thing a studio guy does , just to get you through your CD. I get where you're coming from - this stuff isn't easy to play, and it's not like someone can join an established band and just change the sound completely...I agree on that point, but the vast majority of the album is piano and organ - if someone didn't want to mess with synthesis, I would gladly bring my Moog on stage and take care of those bits myself...Check out tracks like Long Road, Coming Back Home, Angel, When the Morning Comes - those are all very traditional piano/organ pieces... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jplanet Posted January 28, 2010 Author Members Share Posted January 28, 2010 Originally Posted by ggm1960 Who's doing all the keys that the songs are based on then? That's me...which leads to the next natural question, which is, why not get a guitarist and then let me play keyboards? Unfortunately, guitarists tend to know the least about playing in a professional environment - most say, "ok, maybe I can bring some of my riffs in"...which isn't how this band works - the songs are composed over a period of months... Originally Posted by rhat I play keys as well. I agree with space ,, you guys are good. Nice stuff. However I would never answer your ad. Its not money. When I listen you your music, the first thing that comes to my mind is, that its going to be a gig were the keyboard player is going to be required to provide you with all the strings, synth , outer space kind of things. All i want to do is just play piano, organ, rhodes, maybe an occasional steel drum part. I would feel like a monkey on a chain doing what you need done. I like soul, I like older rock, I like county , I like beach music. I think what you are running into is that the guys that are good enough to do what you want done ,,, dont really want to be directed like a your band would require. You can hire a studio guy to do it ,,,, but its not anything that a guy would want a steady diet of. Its just not my kind of keyboard playing. Its also going to take a pretty dam good keyboard player to do what you want. It might be a little intimidating for the guys that are into the more soundy type stuff you want. Basically ,, you wont find too many guys that are good enough that want to play that kind of role in a band. Its the kind a thing a studio guy does , just to get you through your CD. I get where you're coming from - this stuff isn't easy to play, and it's not like someone can join an established band and just change the sound completely...I agree on that point, but the vast majority of the album is piano and organ - if someone didn't want to mess with synthesis, I would gladly bring my Moog on stage and take care of those bits myself...Check out tracks like Long Road, Coming Back Home, Angel, When the Morning Comes - those are all very traditional piano/organ pieces... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WynnD Posted January 28, 2010 Members Share Posted January 28, 2010 There have been times in the past when keyboard players were expected to have as much equipment as Keith Emerson. The required $20,000 to obtain that much stuff scared me. I've gigged much of my adult life with a Hammond X-5 and leslies. (And two leslie's can't keep up with an aggressive guitar through a 50 watt marshall.) The loud bands weren't an option. (I don't like leslies mic'd. That's taking 3 dimensional sound and making it 2 dimensional.) Good luck. (Or become the keyboard player and find a replacement for your position. That's how I became a bassist. Couldn't find a bass player that worked.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WynnD Posted January 28, 2010 Members Share Posted January 28, 2010 There have been times in the past when keyboard players were expected to have as much equipment as Keith Emerson. The required $20,000 to obtain that much stuff scared me. I've gigged much of my adult life with a Hammond X-5 and leslies. (And two leslie's can't keep up with an aggressive guitar through a 50 watt marshall.) The loud bands weren't an option. (I don't like leslies mic'd. That's taking 3 dimensional sound and making it 2 dimensional.) Good luck. (Or become the keyboard player and find a replacement for your position. That's how I became a bassist. Couldn't find a bass player that worked.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rhat Posted January 28, 2010 Members Share Posted January 28, 2010 Originally Posted by jplanet That's me...which leads to the next natural question, which is, why not get a guitarist and then let me play keyboards? Unfortunately, guitarists tend to know the least about playing in a professional environment - most say, "ok, maybe I can bring some of my riffs in"...which isn't how this band works - the songs are composed over a period of months...I get where you're coming from - this stuff isn't easy to play, and it's not like someone can join an established band and just change the sound completely...I agree on that point, but the vast majority of the album is piano and organ - if someone didn't want to mess with synthesis, I would gladly bring my Moog on stage and take care of those bits myself...Check out tracks like Long Road, Coming Back Home, Angel, When the Morning Comes - those are all very traditional piano/organ pieces... NO need brother ,, you just made my point. What you need is a guy thats going to follow your direction. Most guys that can do what you want aint gonna roll that way without major cake. You need a total hired gun and be able to pay him alot more money than he can make doing a solo piano bar gig or just working in the studio and grinding out the sausage. You need to find a total mercenary. Most guys who play keys aint gonna be comfortable with you standing over them. I think you need to just be your own keyboard player, since your band is so keyboard driven with so much of your vision and direction. Hire a guitar player,,it will save you alot of hassle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rhat Posted January 28, 2010 Members Share Posted January 28, 2010 Originally Posted by jplanet That's me...which leads to the next natural question, which is, why not get a guitarist and then let me play keyboards? Unfortunately, guitarists tend to know the least about playing in a professional environment - most say, "ok, maybe I can bring some of my riffs in"...which isn't how this band works - the songs are composed over a period of months...I get where you're coming from - this stuff isn't easy to play, and it's not like someone can join an established band and just change the sound completely...I agree on that point, but the vast majority of the album is piano and organ - if someone didn't want to mess with synthesis, I would gladly bring my Moog on stage and take care of those bits myself...Check out tracks like Long Road, Coming Back Home, Angel, When the Morning Comes - those are all very traditional piano/organ pieces... NO need brother ,, you just made my point. What you need is a guy thats going to follow your direction. Most guys that can do what you want aint gonna roll that way without major cake. You need a total hired gun and be able to pay him alot more money than he can make doing a solo piano bar gig or just working in the studio and grinding out the sausage. You need to find a total mercenary. Most guys who play keys aint gonna be comfortable with you standing over them. I think you need to just be your own keyboard player, since your band is so keyboard driven with so much of your vision and direction. Hire a guitar player,,it will save you alot of hassle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SeniorBlues Posted January 28, 2010 Members Share Posted January 28, 2010 rhat and toddkuen are spot on. This kind of music seems like it should be written by and for the keyboard player, but the main point is that it's your music, rather than a collaboration, no? If you want any chair filled by a sideman, but especially keyboard, they're going to be in it for the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SeniorBlues Posted January 28, 2010 Members Share Posted January 28, 2010 rhat and toddkuen are spot on. This kind of music seems like it should be written by and for the keyboard player, but the main point is that it's your music, rather than a collaboration, no? If you want any chair filled by a sideman, but especially keyboard, they're going to be in it for the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cooterbrown Posted January 28, 2010 Members Share Posted January 28, 2010 Where are you located, John? If I were located close to you (and didn't have a lucrative cover band), I would play with you guys, in a heartbeat...I think your material is excellent. Adressing your problem...I think a big question is, being that a lot of your atmosheric sounds are very specific, would you be willing to teach how you played those parts to your prospective keyboardist, and even "lend" your Moog for them to use, onstage? Supposing he shows up with just a Triton, or some other rompler, and can't realistically cover those real-time ambient patches? Good luck in your search, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cooterbrown Posted January 28, 2010 Members Share Posted January 28, 2010 Where are you located, John? If I were located close to you (and didn't have a lucrative cover band), I would play with you guys, in a heartbeat...I think your material is excellent. Adressing your problem...I think a big question is, being that a lot of your atmosheric sounds are very specific, would you be willing to teach how you played those parts to your prospective keyboardist, and even "lend" your Moog for them to use, onstage? Supposing he shows up with just a Triton, or some other rompler, and can't realistically cover those real-time ambient patches? Good luck in your search, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jplanet Posted January 28, 2010 Author Members Share Posted January 28, 2010 Thanks, man! We're in New York City, unfortunately...But I do have all the sounds programmed on my laptop, somebody could play this gig without ever needing to program a sound, and I have it programmed for splits that would work on any 88-key controller (of course I have a Moog for fun, too, and they are welcome to that as well)...I am actually quite open to players taking liberties with the material as well - they would have to stray pretty far before I asked them to stay closer to what was played, I would fully expect their style to come through in their performance. I have to look at it practically - we are not so famous that I could really justify putting someone through the pain of having no personal expression...I wouldn't do that if we were platinum-selling artists, either. When Yes changed keyboardists, each changed parts to add their signature, I certainly don't have any excuse to be more restrictive.... All great points, and pretty much the direction I thought I might have to ultimately take. I can see if the lure of possibly getting over to Europe and playing festivals might entice a younger player, and, if not, just see who can work it out on a purely professional basis...or, finally, find a guitarist, although I still hold that out as a last resort, but no reason I can't advertise for both and see what surfaces first... Hey! As I'm typing this I got a response to the ad! She's trained in classical and jazz since 8 years old, and wants me to send her the sheet music! Cross your fingers for me, guys - and don't go finding out who she is and tell her she should be getting paid! ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members paulz Posted January 28, 2010 Members Share Posted January 28, 2010 Originally Posted by jplanet That's me...which leads to the next natural question, which is, why not get a guitarist and then let me play keyboards? Unfortunately, guitarists tend to know the least about playing in a professional environment - most say, "ok, maybe I can bring some of my riffs in"...which isn't how this band works - the songs are composed over a period of months... Maybe you should aim more specifically at a more professional level of guitarist.There are a lot of guitar players, In "Guitar, An American Life" Tim Brookes states it outsells all other instruments combined, at least in the USA...even if that's off, it does show a lot of popularity - so a lot are going to be a lot of amateurs, but there's just plain a lot of guitar players.Since you can't find any keyboard players, might as well look where there could be a solutionlike the old "lamppost theory" of problem solving...you come home late at night from a party, you get to your door only to find you have lost your keys...Look under the lamppost, because if it's anyplace else, it's too dark to find themwhoops- looks like you have a response, maybe you'll find someone - just don't cut your options short, especially if it's keeping you from playing the jobs...our time on earth is finite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sausagetime Posted January 28, 2010 Members Share Posted January 28, 2010 your eyes are bigger than your stomach. if its near impossible to find a keyboardist as a volunteer, then you gotta pay a pro as other said...or sequence the stuff live or....keep your keyboard heavy tunes just as a recording project and write tunes based around the instruments you can and do have for live performances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 3shiftgtr Posted January 28, 2010 Members Share Posted January 28, 2010 Good keys are hard to find. The good ones are gigging. And I loves me some prog, it just don't pay much. And that'll put you behind the 8 ball. Good keyboard players who come to Nashville are gobbled up quick! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tshapiro Posted January 28, 2010 Members Share Posted January 28, 2010 As a 20+ year guitar player who maintains a pretty well paid gigging band I eventually came to the realization that to control my own destiny I needed to become the keyboard player. I'm 4 years and 8 keyboards into it and I'm having more fun from a musician standpoint than I have in a long time. Keyboard is definitely many times more challenging than guitar and my understanding of music theory has gotten 10 times more advanced. The only downside is the general perception is that guitar playing is sexy while keyboard is geeky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jplanet Posted January 28, 2010 Author Members Share Posted January 28, 2010 Hmmmm...this has me thinking that maybe my singer can pick up some guitar parts, then I could switch off and play the essential keyboard parts - it won't be 100% of the recording, but live can maybe some little compromise.... A lot of your posts make me feel better about being more flexible with this, which really is the key...maybe the solution above can at least be a stepping stone to when we can either afford to hire a keyboardist, or until someone comes along who sees it as an artistic endeavor that's worth their while... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members badhabit Posted January 28, 2010 Members Share Posted January 28, 2010 Around here, keyboard players that are accomplished are already working. And here, most are hardcore jazzers or more into accessible musical styles, like blues, R&B and classic rock. While your music is complex, challenging, unique and of very high quality, it would have a limited following around here. But I think if your highlight the positive aspects of your endeavor better, you could stand a better chance of finding the right person for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cooterbrown Posted January 28, 2010 Members Share Posted January 28, 2010 Or, you can just do like Rush did and trigger everything...and/or play to a click. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jplanet Posted January 28, 2010 Author Members Share Posted January 28, 2010 I've considered the click idea, very tricky as we have many tempo and even time sig changes throughout! Also, the keyboard playing, as mentioned before, is a feature fans will be looking for live, so the idea of canning it somehow would leave people feeling a bit cheated...But I've definitely given this serious consideration, and we might revisit it as a part of the solution, if not the solution entirely.... Ok, here's the new ad I ran today based on everyone's feedback here (which, by the way, has been incredibly helpful!):http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/muc/1574980253.html Let me know if anyone has any suggestions on the wording - I tried to address many of the impressions that were mentioned in this thread.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Luigi Posted January 28, 2010 Members Share Posted January 28, 2010 Originally Posted by toddkuen As a keyboard player - I liked your stuff - very cool, but...I hear a significant time investment in terms of programming, high instrument/sound count per song, arranging and sync'ing up with whoever/whatever is the rest of the band - matching sounds, figuring out which parts you can play live versus as a backing track, programming, etc. this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jplanet Posted January 28, 2010 Author Members Share Posted January 28, 2010 Originally Posted by Luigi this I have the entire set list programmed on my laptop - all the keyboard player would have to do is plug in any 88-key controller, and step on a pedal once to move to the next program. I've programmed all the splits and the sounds are what was used on the album. The studio even has 88-key controllers already, they could walk to rehearsals with one hand in their pocket and the other smoking a cigarette...I would even be happy to customize sounds to their tastes if they had some ideas...All I can do is increase the odds by offering creative input and some pay, and flexibility - but at some point, we need someone who is interested enough in the music to make a phone call and find out what the situation is...I can't account for people who are completely oblivious to the fact that prog is a commercially viable genre, don't bother to Google us to see what kind of press we get, or assume that they will have no help with the technical aspect... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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