Keyboard players - why so hard to find?

[rhat]

 

Originally Posted by Carl Root

I think you're right. The key phrase is "thinking about taking . . " How many bands are thinking about taking on a guitar, bass, or drums? This creates all kinds of musical and political imbalances and explains why a lot of keyboard players go solo or hang it up.

 

country music is a good thing for keyboard players.... its a place to hang your hat besides old rock and soul and blues.

[SeniorBlues]

 

Originally Posted by BlueStrat

Yes, because a lot of bands 'add' a keyboard player, making the keyboard player adapt to playing music that is mostly guitar based. When you have a band that has had nothing but guitars bass and drums for awhile, it can be rough to fit a keyboard in without stepping on guitar lines, bass parts, and drummer's timing. A lot of bands don't get that they have to change what they're doing to make the keyboards work, not just 'add' one to what they're doing. I think that's why so many keys guys get frustrated, in my experience.

 

It's worse than that. I'd work my butt off to try to fit into a Robben Ford type power trio, whereas ZZ Top progressions make no sense to me.

I sang "Crossroads" last night at a jam (stand up, no keys). Put "take a ride" on the off beat and had to turn around and count them back in!

Rhat, Country could be OK if you were brought up on Floyd Cramer and liked those kinds of lines, but a lot of chord extensions and suspensions that sound good to me will get dirty looks.

Rhythm and changes - so many different schools.

[jplanet]

I read back through this thread and to the most recent posts - interesting that the prevailing point of view is from a working cover band perspective - that is likely where most keyboard players are, I agree, but of course, this is a completely different animal...the music is all original, the keys are a lead instrument, and the genre is one which calls for some innovation, not just playing the changes with the correct sounds...I think I've realized that if we do decide to pay someone with that mindset, it would likely be a wasted effort, as they will simply move on to a better-paying gig...Fortunately, there appear to be players out there responding now who have ideas, understand the market and what kind of path a band like this must take, and want to be a part of something unique...

 

Originally Posted by ggm1960

Yes the music really is stellar with fantastic use of sounds, dynamics, panning and levels. Is refreshingly retro a term?

There's no discussion about the wireless systems, obviously you'll be using the top end Shure stuff like any other pro level band.

 

Thank you, very, very much - as for wireless, I am looking at the new Line6 line...it appears to sound good, and I can afford it! But hopefully we will have some backing and will have an excuse to buy the better stuff down the line...

 

Originally Posted by wades_keys

"When The Morning Comes" has a serious Simon & Garfunkel flavor - especially in the vocals.

"Coming Back Home To You" has a hint of Lennon.

At other times, I'm hearing Ian Anderson of Jethro Tull.

But somehow it doesn't sound like a ripoff or derivative.

That vocalist is a keeper - don't let him get away.

 

I will pass this along to our singer, Dave! Yeah, he's a keeper, alright! I'm sure he'll be thrilled to read your post...

[SpaceNorman]

 

Originally Posted by BlueStrat

Yes, because a lot of bands 'add' a keyboard player, making the keyboard player adapt to playing music that is mostly guitar based. When you have a band that has had nothing but guitars bass and drums for awhile, it can be rough to fit a keyboard in without stepping on guitar lines, bass parts, and drummer's timing. A lot of bands don't get that they have to change what they're doing to make the keyboards work, not just 'add' one to what they're doing. I think that's why so many keys guys get frustrated, in my experience.

 

There's a ton o'truth in your post BlueStrat! Adding a keyboard player to a guitar centered band requires some adjustments - if they expect to get real value from the keyboard player.

I've had my worst playing experiences sharing the stage with "power trio" guitar players. Those six string chords and the slathery strum/slide techiques that power trio guitar players use fill sonic space as they change between them - make adding a keyboard player to the mix almost impossible.

[cooterbrown]

 

Originally Posted by wades_keys

I'm hearing Ian Anderson of Jethro Tull.

But somehow it doesn't sound like a ripoff or derivative.

That vocalist is a keeper - don't let him get away.

 

^^this^^, and to my ears, I hear a lot of mid-70s Genesis influence.

Even though I present myself as more of a rootsy purist, now, I cut my teeth on 70s progressive rock.

An older musician told me, when I was first starting, to learn stuff that was too hard for me to play, and I am grateful I heeded his little nugget of wisdom.

I wish I lived in New York...I honestly would jump on this gig because it would be something that I believed in, and John is obviously not some heavy-handed musical auteur.

You sound like a great guy to work with, dude, and I wish you guys all the success in the world.

I will be buying your album (as soon as I get paid, next Friday ).

[cooterbrown]

 

Originally Posted by SpaceNorman

There's a ton o'truth in your post BlueStrat! Adding a keyboard player to a guitar centered band requires some adjustments - if they expect to get real value from the keyboard player.

I've had my worst playing experiences sharing the stage with "power trio" guitar players. Those six string chords and the slathery strum/slide techiques that power trio guitar players use fill sonic space as they change between them - make adding a keyboard player to the mix almost impossible.

 

Indeed.

I turned down a gig to play with a trio that specialized in 70s and 80s music.

I told the guitarist that he was a control freak and would never be content to play his parts as they were originally written, and that he would simply piss off any prospective keyboard player, since he wouldn't leave their parts alone.

This guy is a friend, fortunately, so I can abusively talk to him like that.

[SeniorBlues]

 

Originally Posted by jplanet

interesting that the prevailing point of view is from a working cover band perspective - that is likely where most keyboard players are, I agree, but of course, this is a completely different animal...

 

You're right, and I apologize for hijacking your thread. Your being open to creative input and seeing the keyboard chair as critical to the point of already having written parts are important differences. Hope you find a good fit.

[Outkaster]

 

Originally Posted by BlueStrat

Yes, because a lot of bands 'add' a keyboard player, making the keyboard player adapt to playing music that is mostly guitar based. When you have a band that has had nothing but guitars bass and drums for awhile, it can be rough to fit a keyboard in without stepping on guitar lines, bass parts, and drummer's timing. A lot of bands don't get that they have to change what they're doing to make the keyboards work, not just 'add' one to what they're doing. I think that's why so many keys guys get frustrated, in my experience.

 

That's true Pat. Some guys personally don't mind but a lot of us will leave bands where there is not equal footing. I see it a lot. I am lucky because with the Dukes I get some breathing room. Even though we are 8 pieces I make it work.

[kenlacam]

Most keyboard players (at least the really good ones) are already involved in a band and are happy in their situation. At least that has been my experience.

[3shiftgtr]

And btw...prog catches a bunch of crap, but it is just fookin good stuff when done right....

[rhat]

 

Originally Posted by kenlacam

Most keyboard players (at least the really good ones) are already involved in a band and are happy in their situation. At least that has been my experience.

 

Those are just the guys who continued to play. Tons of guys drop out of bands to raise families. A band takes alot of time. A keyboard player thats played in bands prior knows how much time it takes. You need to catch them at the right time. retired, kids out of the house. Tap the geezers. Talk one off the bench. I didnt play a live gig since 1970 when I started playing with these guys down here. You wont land a cooter brown,, but you will get a guy that can lay down a solid foundation and give you somthing that people think is a solo. They are out there.

[jplanet]

 

Originally Posted by cooterbrown

^^this^^, and to my ears, I hear a lot of mid-70s Genesis influence.

Even though I present myself as more of a rootsy purist, now, I cut my teeth on 70s progressive rock.

An older musician told me, when I was first starting, to learn stuff that was too hard for me to play, and I am grateful I heeded his little nugget of wisdom.

I wish I lived in New York...I honestly would jump on this gig because it would be something that I believed in, and John is obviously not some heavy-handed musical auteur.

You sound like a great guy to work with, dude, and I wish you guys all the success in the world.

I will be buying your album (as soon as I get paid, next Friday ).

 

Thanks! Again, lots of kind words in this thread, you guys are spoiling me!

 

Originally Posted by Carl Root

You're right, and I apologize for hijacking your thread. Your being open to creative input and seeing the keyboard chair as critical to the point of already having written parts are important differences. Hope you find a good fit.

 

No apologies, I've learned a lot about different perspectives here - it's an education to me to begin to look at music in a professional context, as I've always come at it from this purely artistic angle. The fact is, we're starting to pick up some serious momentum, and I'm going to have to start looking at it from that angle as well...

[Microwave Walrus]

i just wanna say your music sounds fantastic!

[jplanet]

Thanks!

Tell you what, since the music seems to be going over well here (I guess prog is musician's music, and we're all musicians!), I'll give you guys a code you can use to buy the CD for the price of the download (7.99), which also allows free shipping...so if anybody wants the CD for 7.99, just use this code at checkout on our website: DLUPGRADE

Hope that's not too spammy! I'd hate to cheapen a good thread like this with spam...

[Outkaster]

 

Originally Posted by BlueStrat

Are you dong this because you have to, or because you want to?

Perspective makes all the difference in the world if a thing is hard or not.

Just sayin'.

 

Not sure what you mean here Pat?

[theGman]

As a keyboard player I find this a great thread. I am the typical old guy who, after many many years of not doing anything, got back into playing a few years ago and am having a great time. Playing blues and rock means a lot of 60s ish tunes.
Nice to see the amount of young guys so interested in that music....reminds me a lot of the same thing with classic cars of that era, with so many being restored by younger guys.
Being older can suck at times, but if you have to be older it's great to have your memories in the 60s and 70s.

[jplanet]

 

Originally Posted by theGman

As a keyboard player I find this a great thread. I am the typical old guy who, after many many years of not doing anything, got back into playing a few years ago and am having a great time. Playing blues and rock means a lot of 60s ish tunes.

Nice to see the amount of young guys so interested in that music....reminds me a lot of the same thing with classic cars of that era, with so many being restored by younger guys.

Being older can suck at times, but if you have to be older it's great to have your memories in the 60s and 70s.

 

Our band firmly believes that rock music was on the right track in the 60's and 70's, it was just rudely interrupted by the 80's and 90's - now we're just resuming where it left off.

[SpaceNorman]

 

Originally Posted by Outkaster

Some guys personally don't mind but a lot of us will leave bands where there is not equal footing.....

 

Count me as one of the those who will leave. If I'm truly a "hired gun" and being paid for all my time (gigs AND rehearsals) - I'll happily get on board with the program and play whatever musical role you ask of me.

However, if it's the typical rehearse once a week and gig a couple nights a month at $100 a gig - don't treat me like a hired hand and send the signal that my two cents on band matters aren't welcome. I don't have to "get my way" - however I have to feel that my input is taken in earnest and respected. If I get that "if we need anything out of you - we'll let you know" vibe - I'll be moving on to new project in short order.

[tim_7string]

 

Originally Posted by SpaceNorman

Count me as one of the those who will leave. If I'm truly a "hired gun" and being paid for all my time (gigs AND rehearsals) - I'll happily get on board with the program and play whatever musical role you ask of me.

However, if it's the typical rehearse once a week and gig a couple nights a month at $100 a gig - don't treat me like a hired hand and send the signal that my two cents on band matters aren't welcome. I don't have to "get my way" - however I have to feel that my input is taken in earnest and respected. If I get that "if we need anything out of you - we'll let you know" vibe - I'll be moving on to new project in short order.

 

Agreed. Life is far too short to be treated like a doormat, especially for $100/night. I was making less than that as a "hired gun" in the band I left in early 2009. I never missed a gig from the time I joined in August 2007 until February 2009, including times I was sick. Despite the fact that I was the only one to do this (and he went through two drummers and bass players during that period of time and several fill-ins), the bandleader didn't seem to appreciate it. As it reached a crescendo one unfortunate night with an offhanded "I've been in better bands than this" comment from him, I decided I could be running my own show and be 10 times happier. And I am.

[tim_7string]

This thread is a good reminder to me that not all roles in a band are easily found. Probably the hardest people to find are bass players and keyboardists (at least for a guitar-oriented rock group).

Because I know that this is true, I am thankful that my fiancee actually wants to be the bass player and that I know how to play keyboards fairly well.

So, even though I love to play guitar, I know there are way better guitarists out there. Logically, it would be a lot easier for me to switch between rhythm guitar and keyboards as I sing, rather than try to find a keyboardist/rhythm guitarist while I play lead guitar and sing.

[SeniorBlues]

 

Originally Posted by tim_7string

This thread is a good reminder to me that not all roles in a band are easily found. Probably the hardest people to find are bass players and keyboardists (at least for a guitar-oriented rock group).

Logically, it would be a lot easier for me to switch between rhythm guitar and keyboards as I sing, rather than try to find a keyboardist/rhythm guitarist while I play lead guitar and sing.

 

Why would a keyboard player want to play in a guitar oriented band?

For openers, would you be willing to play a number of songs in Bb and F instead of A and E?

[tim_7string]

 

Originally Posted by Carl Root

Why would a keyboard player want to play in a guitar oriented band?

 

Exactly what I said to myself back in 1990. I was the keyboardist in a four-piece variety band back in 1989. I had a blast and enjoyed the freedom of playing "lead keyboard" with only one guitarist in the group. However, when the band reformed a year later (minus the original bass player and adding another guitarist), the band focus changed too much into pop-metal and my role was relegated to "atmospheric sounds" and "background strings." Almost all the songs with prominent keyboard songs were gone for some reason and I was quite unhappy. I have an idea of what the keyboardist in Night Ranger went through, trying to be heard while two lead guitarists wanked the night away as loudly as possible. I quit after only a few months.

 

For openers, would you be willing to play a number of songs in Bb and F instead of A and E?

 

As for your second question, I have and do play in those keys on guitar quite often. I'm not a typical guitarist, having played keyboards for a number of years before my switch to guitar. So, I actually approach guitar with a keyboardist's mentality.

[Dukey]

very interesting thread - I'm a keyboardplayer and can also play rhythmguitar. In fact I started out as rhythmguitarist in a trio doing covers at weddings and such back in 1984, after a year the trio was over (in fact the drummer and keyboardplayer decided to continue as a duo) and I continued as one man band for 20 years and for the last 6 years I'm the keyboardplayer/main vocalist in our 6-pers. cover band. I know from experience how hard it sometimes can be for a keyboardplayer when the band does guitaroriented songs - one of the songs we're doing for instance is Sultans of Swing (Dire Straits) even though it's guitaroriented you can still lay down some piano accompaniment to augment the rhythm - and yes our leadguitarplayer has no problems with it.

Our band consists of a ladysinger who's doing about 60% of all lead vocals and, where neccessary, some harmony singing, a rhythmguitar/bluesharpplayer who does harmony as well, a bassplayer who does harmony as well, a drummer, a leadguitarplayer and myself. Most of the songs we do all have keyboards in it - in the "post your playlist-thread" you can find our repertoire. Hardest part is not to over-do the arrangements and I do agree with you that it's more difficult to find a good keyboardplayer then to find bassists/leadguitarplayers. Our present set-up exists a year only - it's not easy to find and keep the right people. Being in Europe I'd like to know when you're coming over - very interested to hear your band. Hope things will work our for you.

Greetz

Will

[theGman]

Why would a keyboard want to be in a guitar band? I guess because around here they're all guitar oriented already since keys are hard to find, and a keyboard is like the whipped cream on the sundae, you don't NEED it but it just makes things better. The band that can understand this is one notch up the food chain.

Recent example: My group played for the first time this group "Freebird" which was requested by someone. They later said that it sounded so much better with the keyboard, a la that live Atlanta version. Some of them (maybe all?) never played it with a keyboard before and never missed it, but it was just so complete sounding with it.

[jplanet]

Why should anyone play in a band who is not the lead instrument? Because they believe in the music! (WHy is that such a strange concept?) And there is a different kind of satisfaction to playing as an ensemble player than being the rock star...are you into music for music, or for your ego?

I played as a sideman for a singer/songwriter/guitarist for years as a side-project. The guy was so frigging good! And the band was a blast to work with. We became good friends, played some great gigs and recorded some great songs. It was fun to have the pressure off of being the band leader for a change, and just lay back and play rhythm and have a good time. I learned a lot, and it raised my standards for my own songwriting.

Such a shame that many people don't see that - if there is somebody out there with great original songs, and you have a few hours to spare once every week or two, go and play, live a little, invest yourself in something - you never know, it might be the gig that opens up opportunities for you.

(my band, by the way, isn't a guitar band by any means, btw - just in case any keyboard players are reading this, the keys are every bit as out front as guitar!)