Keyboard players - why so hard to find?

[SeniorBlues]

 

Originally Posted by guido61

Not sure what your point is as it relates to the topic. I guess that might be a decent cover of a 43-year old song to do if you want to rock it and make it fun enough that younger audiences won't hate it. "Jumpin' Jack Flash" is probably a decent song to do. Nobody under 45 is going to have a clue what "Young Blood" is.

But I don't think that that is going to inspire any young kids to want to join a band and become keyboard players. They are going to get into music and want to play in a band for the same reasons you and I did. To play the CURRENT stuff they are into.

 

First let me thank you for going over the six songs. I agree with virtually everything you said and realize that another keyboard is probably going to happen, for it's capabilities, more than the access to a second board.

I'll try to write you a PM later. Thanks again.

But you're wrong about what young people want musically.

My daughter - 24 - is a dancer and listens to and dances to a lot of old stuff as well as new. My soon-to-be-daughter-in-law is 25 and wants a lot of Motown at their wedding. I went to a wedding last night where the entire first "set" (DJ) was from my generation.

Rhat is right. I could put together a Leon Russell tribute band, and if the music was right, you'd have them on the dance floor all night long.

Edit: The problem is copping his style. . . . developing the LH technique to cover what he's doing. You won't learn that playing pads and programming.

[rhat]

 

Originally Posted by guido61

Not sure what your point is as it relates to the topic. I guess that might be a decent cover of a 43-year old song to do if you want to rock it and make it fun enough that younger audiences won't hate it. "Jumpin' Jack Flash" is probably a decent song to do. Nobody under 45 is going to have a clue what "Young Blood" is.

But I don't think that that is going to inspire any young kids to want to join a band and become keyboard players. They are going to get into music and want to play in a band for the same reasons you and I did. To play the CURRENT stuff they are into.

 

Lets put it this way ,, if leon russell doenst inspire a young kid to play keyboards ,,, the kid might as well just buy a boom box and play the radio.

[jplanet]

One trend I've noticed with the many keyboard players that auditioned for us, is that nearly all of them are using a laptop and plugins, as opposed to the Triton/Motif/Fantoms that were prevalent just a year ago.

I can see this is a trend that is growing - it allows for complex setup changes very quickly, great portability (most rehearsal spaces in NYC already have a keyboard in the room), and infinite expandability. Not to mention the ability to use huge sample libraries (20GB pianos as opposed to 256 MB pianos)...It's also very cost effective, especially for those who already own a laptop - then all they need is an inexpensive MIDI/Audio interface and the software - and there is an increasingly large choice of low-cost or free plugins that provide sounds and flexibility far beyond what a Motif/Fantom or Triton can do...

Most players either used a Macbook with Main Stage, or a PC laptop with Cantabile or Forte installed...

[SeniorBlues]

 

Originally Posted by jplanet

One trend I've noticed with the many keyboard players that auditioned for us, is that nearly all of them are using a laptop and plugins, as opposed to the Triton/Motif/Fantoms that were prevalent just a year ago.

I can see this is a trend that is growing - it allows for complex setup changes very quickly, great portability (most rehearsal spaces in NYC already have a keyboard in the room), and infinite expandability. Not to mention the ability to use huge sample libraries (20GB pianos as opposed to 256 MB pianos)...It's also very cost effective, especially for those who already own a laptop - then all they need is an inexpensive MIDI/Audio interface and the software - and there is an increasingly large choice of low-cost or free plugins that provide sounds and flexibility far beyond what a Motif/Fantom or Triton can do...

Most players either used a Macbook with Main Stage, or a PC laptop with Cantabile or Forte installed...

 

How about expression? Can you use pedals? Can you "bring in the strings" as Guido61 described?

[DevilRaysFan]

 

Originally Posted by SeniorBlues

But you're wrong about what young people want musically. .

 

and I totally agree with you.....in general, young people seem to be definitely more open-minded musically than the previous-gen of youngsters. I guess Guitar Hero and Rock Band can be partially thanked..... I get requests from the 21-26 or so year old crowd all the time, and there are almost just as many requests for The Beatles, CCR, Marvin Gaye, 70s Rock, Motley Crue, GunsNRoses, 80s flavor synth-pop, etc as there are for Black Eyed Peas or Katy Parry

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by SeniorBlues

But you're wrong about what young people want musically.

My daughter - 24 - is a dancer and listens to and dances to a lot of old stuff as well as new. My soon-to-be-daughter-in-law is 25 and wants a lot of Motown at their wedding. I went to a wedding last night where the entire first "set" (DJ) was from my generation.

 

Well, we're covering two different topics here. "Kids" will respond to all sorts of songs from all eras if they are the right songs. Especially at a wedding. Our standard 2 1/2 hour wedding set covers everything from the 50s ('Shout!') through 60s R&B through 70's classic rock and disco through 80's new wave and hair-band rock through 90's dance music up to Pink and Lady Gaga. That sort of variety works much better at a wedding than any single era or style would.

But as far as kids getting into music and starting bands? I don't think the key for kids to want to become keyboard players is going to be their love for 60s Motown or Leon Russell's opinion of the action on a keyboard that has been out of production since around the time of his last hit.

It's going to be about doing modern "cool" stuff. Pretty much the same reason almost all of us got into playing keyboards at the time we did.

[wades_keys]

 

Originally Posted by SeniorBlues

How about expression? Can you use pedals? Can you "bring in the strings" as Guido61 described?

 

I would recommend that you get a SSD (Solid State Drive) if you're going to go the laptop route.

Those spinning platters don't take kindly to being bumped.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by rhat

Lets put it this way ,, if leon russell doenst inspire a young kid to play keyboards ,,, the kid might as well just buy a boom box and play the radio.

 

Sure. And Louis Armstrong is going to make him want to take up the trumpet...

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by SeniorBlues

How about expression? Can you use pedals? Can you "bring in the strings" as Guido61 described?

 

Yes. The use of pedals is going to much more about the functionality of the controller than of the sound source.

[wades_keys]

 

Originally Posted by guido61

Sure. And Louis Armstrong is going to make him want to take up the trumpet...

 

You never know.

It's not as if there are contemporary trumpet stars out there.

Chuck Mangione inspired my cousin to take up the trumpet, but that was fluke: when's the last time you heard trumpet on contemporary pop radio?

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by SeniorBlues

First let me thank you for going over the six songs. I agree with virtually everything you said and realize that another keyboard is probably going to happen, for it's capabilities, more than the access to a second board.

I'll try to write you a PM later. Thanks again.

 

No problem. I'm glad to help. Yeah, as far as your board goes, I have an SY77 as well, and I really like that board, but the on-board sounds are a bit dated and it's a bitch to program. And while there are some good sounds you can buy that people have on disc, you're doing great if you have a board in which the disc drive still works. And the replacements are special-made, so they aren't that cheap.

Don't know what your budget is, but if you're looking for help, there are a ton of options out there I could help you with. Between boards with sounds, modules, controllers and all the used and new stuff available, you should have little problem coming up with something that is exactly what you need.

Unless you're really a fan of the "soft synths" and really comfortable with using computer based keyboards, I personally wouldn't recommend going the lap-top route for live use. I think the guys who are doing that are mostly the ones who come up with all their stuff at home on their computer and then want to find a way to duplicate all that in a live setting. For us older cats who just want to hit a button and have it work and play our sounds, it's probably better to stick with more traditional stuff.

Then again, I'm not very experienced with the new stuff. It might just be I haven't been made aware of how simple and usable that sort of gear has become.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by wades_keys

You never know.

It's not as if there are contemporary trumpet stars out there.

Chuck Mangione inspired my cousin to take up the trumpet, but that was fluke: when's the last time you heard trumpet on contemporary pop radio?

 

That's kind of my point. I'm saying that because modern stuff is so modern-synth based, young kids starting out aren't going to be too concerned about the keyboards they buy having good piano or organ action.

Rhat's response to that was something Leon Russell must have said decades ago about the Fender Rhodes.

I have no doubt there is probably some kid somewhere who will watch that clip and go "Yeah! I wanna do THAT!". But for every kid like that there will be 99,999 others who will much more interested in getting a MicroKorg XL so they can duplicate the vocoder parts on "California Gurls".

[rhat]

 

Originally Posted by guido61

Sure. And Louis Armstrong is going to make him want to take up the trumpet...

 

You ever work in a rock band with horn players? One thing for sure ,, trumpet players dont become trumpet players from listing to big dumb thumping subs and rap music. They tend to come up through school music programs , by being in concert band then if they are good get a seat in the jazz band. Typcially those are the kids that end up playing in rock bands that have horns. So ya louis armstrong may well be a big influence on them along with a ton of other horn players that the big dumb thumpin sub kids never heard of. I guess your influences tend to come from what path you took into music to wind up in rock and roll. For sure the best singers come out of school choir programs ,,, because they acutally get trained in singing harmony if they are good enough to make chamber choir. Now i know that the vast majority of kids dont get involved in the choral programs as school,, but then most of them cant sing for {censored} either. Hence cookie monster vocals were born lol.

[rhat]

 

Originally Posted by guido61

That's kind of my point. I'm saying that because modern stuff is so modern-synth based, young kids starting out aren't going to be too concerned about the keyboards they buy having good piano or organ action.

Rhat's response to that was something Leon Russell must have said decades ago about the Fender Rhodes.

I have no doubt there is probably some kid somewhere who will watch that clip and go "Yeah! I wanna do THAT!". But for every kid like that there will be 99,999 others who will much more interested in getting a MicroKorg XL so they can duplicate the vocoder parts on "California Gurls".

 

Na leon would have prolly said ,, geesh i kinda like the bark of this rhodes thing ,, but "it plays like a piece of crap and beats the hell out of my hands."

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by rhat

You ever work in a rock band with horn players?

 

Yep. Sure have.

 

One thing for sure ,, trumpet players dont become trumpet players from listing to big dumb thumping subs and rap music.

 

With all due respect, I don't think you really have a clue what kids playing trumpet in schools these days listen to.

 

They tend to come up through school music programs , by being in concert band then if they are good get a seat in the jazz band. Typcially those are the kids that end up playing in rock bands that have horns. So ya louis armstrong may well be a big influence on them along with a ton of other horn players that the big dumb thumpin sub kids never heard of.

 

What that has to do with which direction kids playing keyboards will take, I have no idea.

But if you think you're going to inspire young kids to play keyboards and steer them towards "real" keyboards with "real" action by showing them a 40 year-old clip of Leon Russell covering the Rolling Stones, go for it.

[SeniorBlues]

"Leo Fender's pride and joy . . electric toy" is from lyrics in "Mad Dogs and Englishmen" when he went out on the road with another obscure old guy who nobody wants to dance to. . . . . Joe Cocker.

About playing with the left hand. . . . Kids who have taken piano lessons (on a real piano or keyboard . . . and there are loads of both) will respond favorably to pop music that utilizes the technique they've practiced. Playing pads and pushing buttons isn't that. Or at least they're less similar.

I'm loathe to give up playing LH "bass" patterns (you can EQ so it stays out of the way of the bass player) because you can't articulate a certain kind of groove in the RH if you can't play off the LH. . . . at least I can't. Listen to Herbie Hancock's ghost notes. Lots of guys think that's strictly a drummer thing (Bernard Purdie's youtube tutorial). It isn't.

[rhat]

 

Originally Posted by guido61

Yep. Sure have.

With all due respect, I don't think you really have a clue what kids playing trumpet in schools these days listen to.

What that has to do with which direction kids playing keyboards will take, I have no idea.

But if you think you're going to inspire young kids to play keyboards and steer them towards "real" keyboards with "real" action by showing them a 40 year-old clip of Leon Russell covering the Rolling Stones, go for it.

 

Nope I have no idea what they listen to ,, but I think I do have a pretty good idea of what they will be playing if they get seat in the horn section of a rock band. I guess what i am driving at is that you have young kids that have taken musical training and those that havent. The ones that have are a little more serious about thing like action. the others are more interested in being cool and scoreing chicks and gettng drunk and stoned. Maybe its the geezer in me showing up. I took piano and organ lessons. It was a big help to me in learning to be a rock keyboard player. Keyboard have evolved alot since i was young and I have been out of the game, but Since the music I play ,, you have to play the board more than program it ,, I tend to put alot of value on playing skills. Whatever ,, buy the board that you like... and play the music you like. Its all good

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by SeniorBlues

"Leo Fender's pride and joy . . electric toy" is from lyrics in "Mad Dogs and Englishmen" when he went out on the road with another obscure old guy who nobody wants to dance to. . . . . Joe Cocker.

 

For some bands, there's probably still some mileage in "Feelin' Alright", "You Can Leave Your Hat On" and "Unchain My Heart". Leon Russell?? Well, Sonic Youth did a pretty cool version of "Superstar" about 15 years ago. And Ruben Studdard sang it on American Idol a lot. I guess "This Masquerade" still might work for the lounge-lizard set who remembers the George Benson version. But Russell himself has barely been heard from for...what...35 years?

 

About playing with the left hand. . . . Kids who have taken piano lessons (on a real piano or keyboard . . . and there are loads of both) will respond favorably to pop music that utilizes the technique they've practiced. Playing pads and pushing buttons isn't that. Or at least they're less similar.

 

It's a different skill set, to be sure. I just don't know how far strictly "playing" kids are going to get as keyboardists. You needed to be as much a programmer as a player when I first started doing it 30 years ago. You probably need those skills even more so today. But being able to play well with both hands is certainly a skill any modern player trying to play more than one part at once can use. Especially often you're trying to think two entirely different parts and sound-palettes at the same time. Playing two-handed piano can sometimes be difficult but at least both hands are playing the same instrument. When one hand is playing electric piano and the other is playing brass, the brain really has to be able to work that independence thing!

 

I'm loathe to give up playing LH "bass" patterns (you can EQ so it stays out of the way of the bass player) because you can't articulate a certain kind of groove in the RH if you can't play off the LH. . . . at least I can't.

 

Based on the song-samples you linked, it seems like these guys might be more about great playing than sounding-as-much-like-the-record as possible. Maybe they are going to be more interested in you laying down a killer groove with a single EP part than making sure the string parts are layed on top?

[SeniorBlues]

 

Originally Posted by guido61

But being able to play well with both hands is certainly a skill any modern player trying to play more than one part at once can use. Especially often you're trying to think two entirely different parts and sound-palettes at the same time. Playing two-handed piano can sometimes be difficult but at least both hands are playing the same instrument. When one hand is playing electric piano and the other is playing brass, the brain really has to be able to work that independence thing!

 

Playing two-handed piano or organ can be challenging, but at least you're approaching the instrument as a whole and as such can carry forward the phrases that you learn for a given song. Still, most of the separate string and horn lines can be pulled off with a keyboard that has more modern capabilities than mine.

The band is going to want it both wyas - groove and voices - but I expect they'll be reasonable. Maybe I can get the guitar player to buy a guitar synth.

[rhat]

 

Originally Posted by guido61

For some bands, there's probably still some mileage in "Feelin' Alright", "You Can Leave Your Hat On" and "Unchain My Heart". Leon Russell?? Well, Sonic Youth did a pretty cool version of "Superstar" about 15 years ago. And Ruben Studdard sang it on American Idol a lot. I guess "This Masquerade" still might work for the lounge-lizard set who remembers the George Benson version. But Russell himself has barely been heard from for...what...35 years?

It's a different skill set, to be sure. I just don't know how far strictly "playing" kids are going to get as keyboardists. You needed to be as much a programmer as a player when I first started doing it 30 years ago. You probably need those skills even more so today. But being able to play well with both hands is certainly a skill any modern player trying to play more than one part at once can use. Especially often you're trying to think two entirely different parts and sound-palettes at the same time. Playing two-handed piano can sometimes be difficult but at least both hands are playing the same instrument. When one hand is playing electric piano and the other is playing brass, the brain really has to be able to work that independence thing!

Based on the song-samples you linked, it seems like these guys might be more about great playing than sounding-as-much-like-the-record as possible. Maybe they are going to be more interested in you laying down a killer groove with a single EP part than making sure the string parts are layed on top?

 

I pulled up a youtube of that sonic youth cover.... boy was it exciting,, bout like an overdose of morphine.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by rhat

I pulled up a youtube of that sonic youth cover.... boy was it exciting,, bout like an overdose of morphine.

 

Yeah, that's what I like about it. There's a good version too from about the same time with Chrissie Hynde & Urge Overkill. But Sonic Youth kind of just took it down a whole different dark path. Sort of like what Cake did with "I Will Survive".

Luther Vandross and Usher did that song too. Lots of versions of that one.

[Miket156]

 

 

 

 

 

Originally Posted by Tubefox

Keyboards and Synthesizers are expensive. This means that playing keyboard has a far greater barrier to entry than, say, guitar.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Reply by Guido61

Not really true. A decent entry-level keyboard can be had for a couple of hundred bucks. And a semi-pro guitar and keyboard rig are probably about equal in cost when you consider the cost of good guitar amps and effects gear.

 

 

 

 

Obviously, you are not a keyboard player. As Space Norman discussed in an earlier post, any professional level KB rig runs into quite a bit of money. With the broad palette of sounds the OP wants to duplicate, no KB player is going to be bringing a $600 Casio to replicate those sounds.

A KB player that takes on the project would need one good performance KB, like a Yamaha S90XS and probably a second kB, like a Nord Electro 3 that can handle organ, rhodes, and clav and also has the ability to load and play sounds from the Nord Library which include Mellotron, Chamberlin, a large number of different sting and pad sounds, synths sounds, a ton of WAV samples. That would greatly increase the flexibility of a full sound palette.

A KB player can easily invest 5 to 8K in a professional KB setup. Any good KB setup will have stereo samples so that leaves out any kind of KB amp IMO. Typically a small PA will be needed to be heard on stage and also know what it will sound out at FOH. That means a mixer, speakers, power amp, rack case, cases and accessories, and cables. Its not unusual to have 9 to 10K in a professional level KB rig.

For a live tour it would take a KB player at least two professional KB's plus cases and accessories to handle the KB duties. No way I would rely on a backline company to provide the right KB's for a tour. Often times you will get what they have. A KB player will spend time programming their keyboards to produce the keyboard parts that are on the albums. They can be saved to a USB drive (with plenty of spares just in case). So if I were using one kind of KB to program all my sounds for the show, guess what happens if you hired a backline company to provide the gear and when you show up there is a different KB model sitting there? It won't work.

The OP mentioned that many KB players are using laptops these days and "most studios" have a controller sitting there. But not all controllers are created equally. There would not be enough time to setup a controller a KB player never saw before and get it to pull up all the appropriate sounds for the show, setup KB splits and laying for the multiple parts I was hearing on the records before show time. AFAIK the only way to be sure the KB parts are going to be there is to bring your own equipment, or using backing tracks.

I am still leary of laptops as the mainstay of a KB rig. I don't think that every sound a KB player wants can be generated with soft synths, although there are some good ones, like Ivory for a great piano sound, etc. A laptop would have to be used solely for music, be very powerful (not an entry level computer) if you expect it to work as close to perfect as possible. Depending up how complex the music is and how many things are going at the same time, a laptop can hiccup, or other nasty things can happen. Laptop systems are greatly improved over what they were a few years ago, but if I were going to use a Laptop, I would want a power house computer AND a spare, just in case. Beside that, how immediate is moving from sound to sound on a laptop using a controller? I've read some posts by players that gig that were using a laptop and found the interface was cumbersome, there were latency issues, and it got to be a PITA. Laptops are fine for studio work, but I'm not so sure I would want to bet the ranch on one if I were doing a tour.

Covering the cost of reliable equipment is a big investment. Maybe that's one of the reasons KB players are scare, among other things that were previously posted. Like getting a KB player that is proficient enough to cover the gig and be willing to do it.

Cheers,

Mike T.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by Miket156

Obviously, you are not a keyboard player.

 

I've been playing keyboards for 30 years. Entry level keyboards that can get somebody started playing in a band can be had for a few hundred dollars. Really good pro used stuff can be had for the same price. The Motif 6 that is still my primary board that I bought new in 2001 for over $2K are going every day on Ebay for $500. That's still a great board. There's a ton of great used gear out there for people just starting out. Cost need not be a deterent to taking up keyboards, or be the "barrier to entry", as someone else put it, over any other instrument these days.

I have thousands of dollars invested in my rig. But you don't need a thousands-of-dollars rig to play in a band. And certainly not if you're just starting out.

Keyboards, unlike guitar and bass, can work just fine being folded back through the monitors. And a small powered speaker works just fine. I use two Yamaha MS-400s for my monitors, but stereo sound on stage is a luxury, not a necessity. I do just fine at many gigs with a single speaker.

[jplanet]

 

Originally Posted by Miket156

Obviously, you are not a keyboard player. As Space Norman discussed in an earlier post, any professional level KB rig runs into quite a bit of money. With the broad palette of sounds the OP wants to duplicate, no KB player is going to be bringing a $600 Casio to replicate those sounds.

A KB player that takes on the project would need one good performance KB, like a Yamaha S90XS and probably a second kB, like a Nord Electro 3 that can handle organ, rhodes, and clav and also has the ability to load and play sounds from the Nord Library which include Mellotron, Chamberlin, a large number of different sting and pad sounds, synths sounds, a ton of WAV samples. That would greatly increase the flexibility of a full sound palette.

A KB player can easily invest 5 to 8K in a professional KB setup. Any good KB setup will have stereo samples so that leaves out any kind of KB amp IMO. Typically a small PA will be needed to be heard on stage and also know what it will sound out at FOH. That means a mixer, speakers, power amp, rack case, cases and accessories, and cables. Its not unusual to have 9 to 10K in a professional level KB rig.

For a live tour it would take a KB player at least two professional KB's plus cases and accessories to handle the KB duties. No way I would rely on a backline company to provide the right KB's for a tour. Often times you will get what they have. A KB player will spend time programming their keyboards to produce the keyboard parts that are on the albums. They can be saved to a USB drive (with plenty of spares just in case). So if I were using one kind of KB to program all my sounds for the show, guess what happens if you hired a backline company to provide the gear and when you show up there is a different KB model sitting there? It won't work.

The OP mentioned that many KB players are using laptops these days and "most studios" have a controller sitting there. But not all controllers are created equally. There would not be enough time to setup a controller a KB player never saw before and get it to pull up all the appropriate sounds for the show, setup KB splits and laying for the multiple parts I was hearing on the records before show time. AFAIK the only way to be sure the KB parts are going to be there is to bring your own equipment, or using backing tracks.

I am still leary of laptops as the mainstay of a KB rig. I don't think that every sound a KB player wants can be generated with soft synths, although there are some good ones, like Ivory for a great piano sound, etc. A laptop would have to be used solely for music, be very powerful (not an entry level computer) if you expect it to work as close to perfect as possible. Depending up how complex the music is and how many things are going at the same time, a laptop can hiccup, or other nasty things can happen. Laptop systems are greatly improved over what they were a few years ago, but if I were going to use a Laptop, I would want a power house computer AND a spare, just in case. Beside that, how immediate is moving from sound to sound on a laptop using a controller? I've read some posts by players that gig that were using a laptop and found the interface was cumbersome, there were latency issues, and it got to be a PITA. Laptops are fine for studio work, but I'm not so sure I would want to bet the ranch on one if I were doing a tour.

Covering the cost of reliable equipment is a big investment. Maybe that's one of the reasons KB players are scare, among other things that were previously posted. Like getting a KB player that is proficient enough to cover the gig and be willing to do it.

Cheers,

Mike T.

 

Although I would never give up the wonderful gear you have listed in your signature, I really am blown away by this setup I've put together for composing that I managed to transform into a portable rig.

For anyone who has a laptop already, they can expand it into a powerhouse to rival Rick Wakeman's setup with the following:

- MIDI foot controller (Behringer FCB1010 for example): $175

- 88 Key weighted controller (Privia PX-110 or M-Audio Keystation): $300

- optional non-weighted 49 or 61 key controller: $150

- Cantabile Performer Pro software (to set up racks/splits, etc.) $150

- M-Audio or Edirol MIDi/Audio interface w/ASIO drivers: $150

- cases/stands/cables: $150 (this can go higher or even much lower, most gigging musicians absolutely do not need massive and heavy cases, especially as the vast majority of this rig can be carried from a car to the stage in one trip)

All of the above come to less than the cost of a used 61-key Fantom. It can be argued that a particular musician may not want to settle for a Casio Privia for a weighted controller, but they are missing out on a 20 lb. workhorse with great, light action that is very amenable to playing long gigs, and one won't need to seek counseling if dropped or stolen...

As for the software instruments, it is absolutely possible to match the quality of a rompler-type workstation with freebie/shareware instruments, a wide assortment of pianos, hammonds, mellotrons, analog emulations are freely available. Of course, most working musicians with a composition setup will already own licenses for a dozen great synths and samplers anyway...

Keep in mind that Fantoms/Motifs, etc. are just computers housed in a hardware keyboard - they have CPUs that can overheat, software bugs, and all the possibilities of crashing or malfunctioning that any computer has. The nice thing is, if your laptop crashes, you just turn up the volume on the Privia, and you have a better-than-expected selection of general midi sounds available to carry you over through a reboot. That is something a hardware synth cannot do...And if someone spills a beer on your keyboard, you still have the rest of your rig, and only a cheap controller to repair/replace.

[SpaceNorman]

 

Originally Posted by jplanet

For anyone who has a laptop already, they can expand it into a powerhouse to rival Rick Wakeman's setup with the following:

- MIDI foot controller (Behringer FCB1010 for example): $175

- 88 Key weighted controller (Privia PX-110 or M-Audio Keystation): $300

- optional non-weighted 49 or 61 key controller: $150

- Cantabile Performer Pro software (to set up racks/splits, etc.) $150

- M-Audio or Edirol MIDi/Audio interface w/ASIO drivers: $150

- cases/stands/cables: $150 (this can go higher or even much lower, most gigging musicians absolutely do not need massive and heavy cases, especially as the vast majority of this rig can be carried from a car to the stage in one trip)

 

I won't discount the idea of going the software based route - however, I think you've painted an inordinately rosy picture of the costs in your assessment - and don't come anywhere close to an "apples to apples" comparison in terms of the quality or reliability when comparing it to the hardware based rigs that Mike or I have talked about.

First lets take the "anybody with a laptop" statement. There's no question that laptops are readily available - however, if you're putting together a "gig rig" - don't think for a minute you're going to take the $400 laptop you bought to check email and play on Facebook and use it as your music machine as well. Most guys building gig rigs are purchasing high end machines - loaded with both disk and RAM. More importantly, they're building those machines specifically for use as dedicted music machine. While I suspect that Sweetwater isn't the best source for laptops - a quick scan of their laptop offerings shows 10 MAC models with a minimum cost of $999, a maximum cost of $2,299 and an average cost of $1,699. The "anybody with a laptop" statement conveniently excludes what's likely to be a minimum $1,000+ expense out of your cost assessment.

The collection of controllers, interfaces and software you have lists total $925. If you use a conservative laptop cost of $1,200 ... you're at $2,100+.

Your $150 for stands, cases and cables strikes me as unrealistic as well. Again, using the pricing published on Sweetwater's web site as a basis - the cheapest 2 tiered stand (you've got two boards in your setup right?) - is an IQ1000 and the 2nd tier add-on which combined is pennies away from $80. The cheapest "generic" keyboard bag (i.e., not designed for a specific keyboard) but intended for use with any 49 key synth is $59. If I'm eyeballing your numbers correctly - that leaves you with about $10 to buy all the cables you'll need to connect everything. What's that gonna get you? A single 10 ft TS to TS? Just eyeballing what you can purchase with $150 - it looks like you're short a case for the 88 key Privia, a bag for the laptop and a {censored}load of cables.

Conspicuously absent in your assessment are any software costs for software instruments. I don't play in the softsynth world much so I'm not all that in tune with the costs - however, the guys that I know who ARE building libraries of softsynth are constantly groaning about how much money gets spend on software. You mentioned freeware - and again since I'm not well versed in the softsynth world I can't judge what's available. I am however a IT professional by day and know that I don't trust my bread and butter to freeware. You get what you pay usually applies to software as well.

Also absent in your assessment is any mention of amplification. Both Mike T and I called out the keyboardist's need for quality amplification if he's truly planning on being a gigging player.

I won't try to debate the quality of keyboard feel of the rig you've outlined simply because it can rightfully be argued that it's a matter of personal taste. However, I think you'll be hard pressed to find many working keyboard players who would take the feel of a low end Casio and/or M-Audio controller and talk about them as being in the same ballpark with the boards that Mike T or I mentioned in our comments.

My point here is pretty simple JPlanet. Your claim that anybody with a laptop "can expand it into a powerhouse rivaling Rick Wakeman's setup" with $900 worth of cheap parts is either deluded or intentionally misleading. There may be plenty of very good reasons for going with a software based rig - but when you add up ALL the costs - being significantly cheaper ain't one of 'em.