Keyboard players - why so hard to find?

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by rhat

I dont know. I know at 15 I knew the difference between a farfisa and a vox continental and a silver tone amp and a black face fender. But then we had a hammond with a leslie and a piano in the house. I guess it depends on how into music the kid is and how much support they have at home for the music thing. In high school everyone I played with all had good gear. but then there was no cheap gear that was gig worthy back then. Lots of kids with cheap gear back then, never got out of the basment. We were giggin and getting paid quite well. All band and choir geeks,, so music was pretty serious deal for the people I ran with. Lots of kids had a pretty fancy cars ,,, we had guys with really expensive trumpets and music rigs and beat the hell out of the parents station wagon hauling gear.

 

There's a lot of relatively cheap gig-worthy gear. The MM6 is going to give anyone who can't afford a $2500 Motif XS-6 pretty much all the stuff they need to gig with from that board for $600. Used Roland XP/JV stuff was industry standard stuff up until just a few years ago. That gear ruled the 90s. You can make serious music with those boards and buy cheap used stuff all day long. And Roland gear holds up pretty well.

Kids are going to want the gear that reproduces the music they listen to now and start from that point to begin their careers. When I first started playing in the mid-70's the dream keyboard setup was to have a Rhodes, a Mini-moog, and if you really rich and adventurous, a B3. But by the time I actually got around to buying keyboards (I played guitar in my first couple of bands in the late 70s), the B3 and Rhodes were passe, and what I really needed (and bought) was a Prophet 5 and some sort of road-worthy acoustic piano. (Most guys were playing the Yamaha CP80s. I opted for a Helpenstill "Roadmaster(?)".) Today, kids are going to want to do some phat bass lines, juicy pads, and nifty grooves. And even the cheapest synths have better piano sounds than those old behemoth acoustic/electric pianos had in the 80s. And most have pretty decent organ sounds too.

As time goes on and they decide they want better/different sounds and action, they can trade up to better boards. But I would have killed back then for the quality of sounds that are available so cheaply now. The technology simply didn't exist.

[rhat]

 

Originally Posted by guido61

There's a lot of relatively cheap gig-worthy gear. The MM6 is going to give anyone who can't afford a $2500 Motif XS-6 pretty much all the stuff they need to gig with from that board for $600. Used Roland XP/JV stuff was industry standard stuff up until just a few years ago. That gear ruled the 90s. You can make serious music with those boards and buy cheap used stuff all day long. And Roland gear holds up pretty well.

Kids are going to want the gear that reproduces the music they listen to now and start from that point to begin their careers. When I first started playing in the mid-70's the dream keyboard setup was to have a Rhodes, a Mini-moog, and if you really rich and adventurous, a B3. But by the time I actually got around to buying keyboards (I played guitar in my first couple of bands in the late 70s), the B3 and Rhodes were passe, and what I really needed (and bought) was a Prophet 5 and some sort of road-worthy acoustic piano. (Most guys were playing the Yamaha CP80s. I opted for a Helpenstill "Roadmaster(?)".) Today, kids are going to want to do some phat bass lines, juicy pads, and nifty grooves. And even the cheapest synths have better piano sounds than those old behemoth acoustic/electric pianos had in the 80s. And most have pretty decent organ sounds too.

As time goes on and they decide they want better/different sounds and action, they can trade up to better boards. But I would have killed back then for the quality of sounds that are available so cheaply now. The technology simply didn't exist.

 

whatever ,, if they lack the foundation on keys to actually play the thing ,, they are reduced to making sounds and programming. Music like that, I have like zero interest in so ,, I am real happy with a stage piano. I play with guys that want piano , rhodes, B3 and a little flaco accordian and steel drums.. the space sounds and strings are pretty well useless to me even though I have them on the board. What ever the kids want is cool with me... Just learn to play the thing

[wades_keys]

 

Originally Posted by SeniorBlues

Now we've gone overboard, IMHO. I'm auditioning with a "mostly R&B" band next week (yeah, I know . . . again.) and the song list I've been asked to prepare (see below) make it clear why a lot of local groups are looking for a second keyboard on CL. Piano, strings, horns, synths. . . . that's fine except you're expected to be able to play several during the same song, and often two at the same time. Not very appealing to those of us who are trying to get into a groove and refine the technique of playing one "voice" (and I'm not talking about pyrotechniques.)

 

Most modern boards will have a performance or "combi" mode that allows you to do splits and layers so you can get those types of sounds much more readily than you might think.

I got a pro tip years ago from Jordan Rudess: basically, it is to never use straight programs in performance. Always use the "combi" or split/layer mode for everything you do, even if it only involves one voice.

This way, you've got "slots" to where you can split and layer, PLUS you don't have to alter or keep copies of the same programs: "combi" mode just keeps a "pointer" to the actual program data.

 

Originally Posted by SeniorBlues

Fellow keyboard players, if you've got time to burn, check these out and and put yourself in a quartet plus singer format and tell me what you would include and what you would leave out. Oh yes, back up singing, too.

 

Deal.

I just listened to about 15 seconds of that Rufus/Chaka Khan tune. You'll need a "string machine" sound for sure. Those "string machines" were basically very limited synthesizers that produced sawtooth waves. The shimmering cheez mojo came about because of the onboard chorus, which used a very unique multi-stage design to get that shimmering.

Your board probably has a sample of a string machine in there somewhere, so you can use that.

Me, I'd probably try to repro it with 3 osc's of detuned saw waves and onboard effects.

There's a talented piano player here locally that's about 70 years old that can play the hell out of the piano but doesn't really know the first thing about how to set up his digital board to get sounds.

Nothing wrong with that until you put yourself out there in a band context, and that's when that becomes a limiting factor.

If I were in your area, I'd come over and help you program your board to get the best use out of it. Maybe you can find a younger dude that is techno-savvy but needs to learn some old licks and tricks: you can hook him/her up with lessons in exchange for having him/her setup your board for you?

[SpaceNorman]

 

Originally Posted by guido61

...I would have killed back then for the quality of sounds that are available so cheaply now. The technology simply didn't exist.

 

I'm with you on that sentiment! My gig rig back in the early 80's was a Rhodes, Hohner D6 Clavinet, Hammond C2 / Leslie 145 and a cheezy Korg Poly 61 for a few synth sounds. It weighed a buh-zillion pounds, required a truck to move AND (with the exception of the Hammond) didn't have a fraction of the flexibility that my CP300 / RD700SX / Motif ES Rack rig has today.

[SeniorBlues]

Just to be clear, I'm not concerned so much will duplicating the patch, although I realize that's something you've invested a lot of time in in the past. My keyboard can reproduce all the necessary sounds to fill the sonic space. It can also do keyboard splits, although there are limits due to the complex wave forms in some of my favorite voices that don't allow room for yet another set.

The issue is a musical one. If you're used to playing changes with your left hand, then your right is free to play another voice in the upper register if your hands don't overlap. But they often do, both physically as well as in the timing of the lines and changes in the studio arrangements.

Many of us play LH bass, essentially, regardless of organ or piano background. Others play RH only and use their left hand for accents and fussing with keyboard settings.

So try to visualize approaching various multiple lines physically in terms of technique, as well as musical sensibility, if that makes sense.

[wades_keys]

 

Originally Posted by SeniorBlues

So try to visualize approaching various multiple lines physically in terms of technique, as well as musical sensibility, if that makes sense.

 

Of course.

When I play keys in my current band, I also have to play bass.

So on a song like "superstition", I've got a Fender P bass sample mapped to a low Eb, I've got a trombone, trumpet and fretless bass layered in the 1 octave above middle C, and the fretless bass drops out in the next octave so I can do the signature descending horn line.

Of course there is also the clav: I've got 2 clavs layered in across a roughly one octave range.

 

The issue is a musical one. If you're used to playing changes with your left hand, then your right is free to play another voice in the upper register if your hands don't overlap. But they often do, both physically as well as in the timing of the lines and changes in the studio arrangements.

 

I remap octaves all the time: I got that trick off of Jordan Rudess as well.

I'm not sure how I keep track of it all from song to song, but I do.

That's another bennie of using the "combi" mode: I can setup patches that are specific to the song, and name them accordingly.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by SeniorBlues

Sometimes, I think Leon Russell had the right idea. "Leo Fender's Pride and Joy - electric toy." I don't think he has ever fooled with any other instruments or supplemental voices besides piano.

 

That pretty much makes my point for me. Good luck finding much of anyone under the age of 50 who's even HEARD of Leon Russell.

 

Back in the early sixties, what we heard on most recordings were pianos, and the portable alternatives, like the Wurly, were rarely visible. (It was designed as a teaching instrument, to be used with headphones.) It's not like you could research the latest technology as easily as you can now. The Lowery two manual portable organ that I bought in '63 was probably designed as a solo instrument. It had it's own dedicated amp - no 1/4" jack. I made a dual showman sized plywood cabinet and bought two cheap 15" speakers which helped, but the sound of the Lowery was always its limiting factor. It wasn't like I wanted an organ . . . more like I had taken piano lessons, wanted to play R&R, and needed something portable . . . anything.

If you had the money and equipment, your choices grew during the sixties, but I don't recall any of my peers ever bringing more than one axe - and more than one "voice' onto the stage.

 

Early rock (50s and 60s) bands were about trying to fit a square peg in a round hole when it came to keyboards. Guitarists had electric guitars and small amps and fuzz pedals. Drummers had trap kits. Keyboard players were trying to figure out ways to drag around giant pianos and organs. It was only a matter of time that technology would grow to fit the need of the small, portable rock band. Hence, smaller organs, electric pianos, and synthesizers.

 

Now we've gone overboard, IMHO. I'm auditioning with a "mostly R&B" band next week (yeah, I know . . . again.) and the song list I've been asked to prepare (see below) make it clear why a lot of local groups are looking for a second keyboard on CL. Piano, strings, horns, synths. . . . that's fine except you're expected to be able to play several during the same song, and often two at the same time. Not very appealing to those of us who are trying to get into a groove and refine the technique of playing one "voice" (and I'm not talking about pyrotechniques.)

 

Again, modern rock and pop are what they always have been: music from which the writing, recording and performing styles are largely defined by the latest technology. Is it 'overboard'? That's a matter of personal taste, I suppose. But yeah, modern keyboard playing isn't often about the technique of playing a single voice. There is still some room for that in more jazz/easy listening type stuff--we do a 'cocktail/dinner set' for weddings that is a lot of Sade and Norah Jones type stuff where I get to use my single voice 'chops'--but rockin' and/or dance-y stuff? Yeah, the skills of being able to play more than one voice at a time are more essential.

But I like that challenge. One of the drawbacks of "single voice" piano and organ playing in a full rock band is there isn't usually a lot of room for left-hand work. Most of that is just going to conflict with what the bass player is doing. So doing multiple keyboard stuff gives me opportunity to use both hands--often in quite independent fashion--and work on those skills and chops.

[wades_keys]

Actually Leo Fender had nothing to do with the Rhodes piano.

Harold Rhodes invented it to help wounded soldiers rehabilitate.

[chevybusa]

I'm sure this has already been covered but I think the main reason why keyboard players are so hard to find is because there are simply so few of them with regard to guitarists bassists drummers and singers, i.e. such a small population of musos are keyboardists. I'm sure there are obviously reasons why this is true and that there are other reasons, but I really believe this is the main reason why they are so hard to find. In fact I play keys and while I know tons of other guitarists bassists drummers and singers I am the only keyboard player I know, and even when I was out gigging and playing with bands and a part of the local scene here years ago I didn't know any other keyboardists and none of the bands I knew had one. Which isn't to say that I was the ONLY keyboard player at all in central and northwest CT at the time, there obviously had to be others, I'm just illustrating my point.

[DevilRaysFan]

 

Originally Posted by wades_keys

Most modern boards will have a performance or "combi" mode that allows you to do splits and layers so you can get those types of sounds much more readily than you might think.

 

My top board is now an M-Audio controller into a laptop. Im using many VSTIs that have split versatility. Even more is when I use the virtual sampler (Im using the Paax2 VSTi - not the best, but it was free and extremely easy to use) in which I have certain tones assigned to sections or, in some cases, individual keys. Certain songs, like Closer by NIN, I use as many as 6 or 7 split points of various key ranges.

[wades_keys]

 

Originally Posted by DevilRaysFan

Even more is when I use the virtual sampler (Im using the Paax2 VSTi - not the best, but it was free and extremely easy to use) in which I have certain tones assigned to sections or, in some cases, individual keys. Certain songs, like Closer by NIN, I use as many as 6 or 7 split points of various key ranges.

 

Yeah, that's where it's at.

We play "Tuff Enuff" by the T-Birds, and I have to do the electric bass part in my left hand but also the synthy fast eighth notes with my right.

I found it almost impossible to do those RH notes all on one key with the right consistency (I think he uses a sampler in the original recording), so what I did was mapped that same note to the key a half step down.

This way I can just twiddle those 2 keys, one with each finger.

I also transposed the whole board on that one: I'm not even sure what key the original song is in anymore. What happened there was a miscommunication on the key sig, so I had worked it up with all of my splits/layers in one key, and then found out we were doing it in another.

So I transposed each layer in the combi: musically ignorant but very practical.

Another thing I like to do is transpose bass octaves so that I can play them in a certain position closer to where my right hand is going to be.

It's much easier IMO to keep track of those transpositions than it is to muck around too much with the upper register, RH stuff.

[SeniorBlues]

 

Originally Posted by wades_keys

Actually Leo Fender had nothing to do with the Rhodes piano.

Harold Rhodes invented it to help wounded soldiers rehabilitate.

 

Yes, I know. I talked to him at a PTG convention about the action in his instrument. As Rhat says, you get a comfort level of playing a certain style with a certain touch and it feels wrong when you have to switch.

Playing organ patches with weighted keys is really odd.

[SeniorBlues]

 

Originally Posted by DevilRaysFan

My top board is now an M-Audio controller into a laptop. Im using many VSTIs that have split versatility. Even more is when I use the virtual sampler (Im using the Paax2 VSTi - not the best, but it was free and extremely easy to use) in which I have certain tones assigned to sections or, in some cases, individual keys. Certain songs, like Closer by NIN, I use as many as 6 or 7 split points of various key ranges.

 

Serious question . . do top level touring acts do this sort of thing? Can you post some youtube links?

[wades_keys]

 

Originally Posted by SeniorBlues

Yes, I know. I talked to him at a PTG convention about the action in his instrument. As Rhat says, you get a comfort level of playing a certain style with a certain touch and it feels wrong when you have to switch.

Playing organ patches with weighted keys is really odd.

 

You need a 2 tier rig it sounds like.

Weighted controller on the bottom and an organ/synth action on the top.

[rhat]

That pretty much makes my point for me. Good luck finding much of anyone under the age of 50 who's even HEARD of Leon Russell.

It dont matter ,, you lay a great cover of this on them and those young people are gonna dance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0grEMQEXiw

[wades_keys]

 

Originally Posted by SeniorBlues

Serious question . . do top level touring acts do this sort of thing? Can you post some youtube links?

 

Jordan Rudess plays in Dream Theater.

Not your cup of tea at all but they are most definitely a top touring act.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by SeniorBlues

Fellow keyboard players, if you've got time to burn, check these out and and put yourself in a quartet plus singer format and tell me what you would include and what you would leave out. Oh yes, back up singing, too.

 

Some nice stuff here I'd have a lot of fun playing. I've only glanced over these songs, so excuse me if there's any major parts during bridges or solos I might have missed.

On the Chaka Khan tune: I'd play the electric piano part with my left and and the strings with my right. If I had to reduce it to one part at a time, I'd play the strings during the intro and chorus and drop to the EP during the verses. I'd ignore the brass and any other parts.

Phyllis Hyman: I'd use a layered patch with a string/synthy pad underneath the EP. Play it as a single voice and, with the right amount of sustain on the underlying pad, should be enough to make it sound full and lush.

N'Dea Davenport: that wah-y/phazy EP is so crucial to the song that there really isn't any room to do much else. The trumpet parts and little synth licks are cool, but would take a much better player than me to play those while keeping that EP groove with one hand. I'd play the EP and dump the rest.

Incognito: I'd be doing the EP/string layer again, but this time controlling the volume of the strings with a foot pedal so I could bring them in-and-out as needed. And I'd play the EP with my left hand during the intro/chorus and playing that little brass riff with my right. If you have to choose one, the EP is more essential, although it would probably work to go back-and-forth between the two parts and play the brass riff when it is most prominent.

Maysa: I'd do the best I could with right hand on EP, left hand on strings. I can definately hear a way to fill the song with a layered patch again, but you'd be changing the string part quite a bit. But there's room on all of these songs (IMO) for re-arranging parts and still making them groove and sound 'right'. I'd scrap the vocal-synth bits and sing them live if you find them essential.

Luther Vandross: I'd have a lot of fun playing those strings riff with my right hand and comp-ing the EP part with my left. But again, you could use a layered patch (with the foot pedal to bring the strings in and out) to fill the song nicely.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by wades_keys

You need a 2 tier rig it sounds like.

Weighted controller on the bottom and an organ/synth action on the top.

 

That's what I do so I have a bit of both worlds. I use a semi-weighted Roland A-37 controller that gives me enough (for me) piano action to play my piano parts well, but isn't so stiff that I'm going to rip my fingers open playing organ. It's also fine for playing pads and such. And I like having 76 keys for two-handed piano stuff. (I've never really felt a need for a full 88-key board.) The Motif 6 on top is fine for all the synth stuff.

It would be POSSIBLE to play the songs he linked to with one split board and a lot of patch changing, but much more trouble than it would be worth, IMO. I'd definately want two boards (minimum).

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by rhat

It dont matter ,, you lay a great cover of this on them and those young people are gonna dance.

 

They're just going to think you're doing your own version of the Stones. Nobody is going to know or care you're doing a Leon Russell version. So why NOT just do your own version at that point?

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by SeniorBlues

Yes, I know. I talked to him at a PTG convention about the action in his instrument. As Rhat says, you get a comfort level of playing a certain style with a certain touch and it feels wrong when you have to switch.

Playing organ patches with weighted keys is really odd.

 

Most of that is just getting used to stuff. You play an SY77 now, right? Not exactly the best 'action' keyboard ever built. But since it's now your main axe, I'm guessing you've gotten pretty used to doing all sorts of stuff with it.

[rhat]

 

Originally Posted by guido61

They're just going to think you're doing your own version of the Stones. Nobody is going to know or care you're doing a Leon Russell version. So why NOT just do your own version at that point?

 

It doesnt matter what they think,,,,, that mash up kicks ass and it will wind em up. It doesnt matter if they have heard of leon russell or not. really good straight up rock moves all generations. Like dick used to say ,, its got a good beat and its easy to dance to. That stuff is players music, not programers.

[wades_keys]

 

Originally Posted by rhat

It doesnt matter what they think,,,,, that mash up kicks ass and it will wind em up. It doesnt matter if they have heard of leon russell or not. really good straight up rock moves all generations. Like dick used to say ,, its got a good beat and its easy to dance to. That stuff is players music, not programers.

 

I agree.

Just play the damn thing and give it what you got. That was a kickass rendition - I'm going to run that by my band and see what they think.

I busted out the croak last night and a few days ago - singing lead and playing keys on "cheap sunglasses" - seemed to go over as well as expected at a block party where nobody is really caring to dance except for the little tykes LOL.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by rhat

It doesnt matter what they think,,,,, that mash up kicks ass and it will wind em up. It doesnt matter if they have heard of leon russell or not. really good straight up rock moves all generations. Like dick used to say ,, its got a good beat and its easy to dance to. That stuff is players music, not programers.

 

Not sure what your point is as it relates to the topic. I guess that might be a decent cover of a 43-year old song to do if you want to rock it and make it fun enough that younger audiences won't hate it. "Jumpin' Jack Flash" is probably a decent song to do. Nobody under 45 is going to have a clue what "Young Blood" is.

But I don't think that that is going to inspire any young kids to want to join a band and become keyboard players. They are going to get into music and want to play in a band for the same reasons you and I did. To play the CURRENT stuff they are into.

[wades_keys]

^ good advice on mapping the volume pedal to specific layers.

That's another advantage of using that mode vs. straight program mode.

Another thing I like to do is disable the damper pedal CC on bass part layers; this way the damper only affects the RH part and won't muddy up the bass line that I'm playing with the LH.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by wades_keys

Another thing I like to do is disable the damper pedal CC on bass part layers; this way the damper only affects the RH part and won't muddy up the bass line that I'm playing with the LH.

 

That would definately work. I don't play any synth-bass parts. As we're delving more into modern material the issue of what to do with the bass parts is coming up. Right now the plan is to just continue to play them with bass guitar and, if necessary, using some sort of effect on the bass to re-create the patches if need be.