Keyboard players - why so hard to find?

[SpaceNorman]

 

Originally Posted by guido61

Keyboards, unlike guitar and bass, can work just fine being folded back through the monitors. And a small powered speaker works just fine. I use two Yamaha MS-400s for my monitors, but stereo sound on stage is a luxury, not a necessity. I do just fine at many gigs with a single speaker.

 

The reason guitar and bass typically don't rely on monitors only is because their choice of amp colors their tone and is ultimately part of their sound - which in unlike most keyboard setups that look for exact reproduction of the signal/sound being amplified. Lots of guys are moving to amp modelers and using the PA monitor system - and eliminating their personal amp on stage.

That said - anything can work just fine being folded back through the monitors. That is, provided the monitor system is capable of handling all of it. If you're using a speaker based monitor system (as opposed to an IEM system) - you're not going toss the typical bar band monitor rig on stage and expect keys to run through it in addition to the "vocals only" mix that taxes most "semi-pro" bar band monitor rigs to begin with.

Keep in mind that this entire conversation stems from your statement that a "a semi-pro guitar and keyboard rig are probably about equal in cost when you consider the cost of good guitar amps and effects gear." A PA monitor rig that is going to be called upon to handle vocals AND the stage monitoring of the keyboard rig is going to be more costly than the PA monitor rig that is designed with the intent of simply handling vocals.

Using the PA monitors doesn't eliminate cost - it simply pushes the cost to another part of the system.

[rhat]

My view of this is that the starting point for gear for keyboard players is a decent stage piano. Its got your basic sounds for rock. Pianos, electric pianos, organs, horns, strings and usually some other stuff. Its the foundation of rig that one builds around. You also need a monitor/ amp of some sort. Personally I have a powered PA speaker that stays in my truck.

Typically I dont have to break it out since on my regular gig ,, i can just go through the board and that works fine. I have run into situations where the house PA was a little shaky and I didnt want to be the guy to scatter the thing so i would just run caveman through my mackie. I also have a small mixer and a cheap DVD player that I use for Playing CDS so i can play along for woodshedding. I run a simple double X brace stand and a bench,, and the cords to hook all this stuff up. That is a minimum rig for a keyboard player. I have been playing for like 40 years and am a self admitted geezer who is not into programming , being the horn bitch or space monster sound maker. By sticking to my guns on that ,, I can get by just fine with a 88 key one down from the flagship stage piano. I feel that I am running just about the minimum gear a guy can run and still play in a band. I havent totaled up the price ,, but I am prolly pushing 3 grand. More if you figure in that I have three mackies,, but two of them are a small PA system. I question if serious band keyboard player is gonna get by any cheaper than I do.

While you an learn to play on pretty well anything with keys ,,, I dont feel a guy with that kind of board is a serious contender to ever make the cut on an audition for a gigging band. Along with the ability to make it through the audition ,, typically comes enough playing skills that they wont settle for a toy action and sound of that kind of keyboard. I see a 61 or less than 88 key synth as a second teir kind of deal,, not the primary board. I am sure guys get by with less,,, and I have with my old vox back in the day. But even then ,, that sucker was expensive , and didnt have what you all a cheap price of entry into playing keys in a rock band.

The laptop route doesnt seem like its anything you would want to subject to the beating its going to take out playing gigs in bars.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by SpaceNorman

Using the PA monitors doesn't eliminate cost - it simply pushes the cost to another part of the system.

 

Yes, I conceeded to you a while back that I was probably exagerrating a bit to state the costs of a keyboard and guitar rig are equal. But the gap has decreased dramatically over the past several years. A used Motif-6 or XP-60 can be had for $500 easily. Starter boards like the MM6 are about the same price new. With one of those, a small powered monitor, a cheapy stand and a couple of cables and pedals and you're good to go for well under $1000. A guitarist these days is going to need a guitar, a Line-6 type pedal board and an amp to play them through. They're going to be well above $500 for all that. What's a drum set cost these days?

Yeah, keyboards can be expensive. And the more "pro" and involved you get with your rig, the more the gap between what a keyboard player and the other guys in the band are spending grows. But just starting out? I don't really see "cost being the barrier" as the one poster mentioned that I was inititally responding to.

[rhat]

 

Originally Posted by guido61

Yes, I conceeded to you a while back that I was probably exagerrating a bit to state the costs of a keyboard and guitar rig are equal. But the gap has decreased dramatically over the past several years. A used Motif-6 or XP-60 can be had for $500 easily. Starter boards like the MM6 are about the same price new. With one of those, a small powered monitor, a cheapy stand and a couple of cables and pedals and you're good to go for well under $1000. A guitarist these days is going to need a guitar, a Line-6 type pedal board and an amp to play them through. They're going to be well above $500 for all that. What's a drum set cost these days?

Yeah, keyboards can be expensive. And the more "pro" and involved you get with your rig, the more the gap between what a keyboard player and the other guys in the band are spending grows. But just starting out? I don't really see "cost being the barrier" as the one poster mentioned that I was inititally responding to.

 

I think we can all agree that quality keyboards have gotten cheaper. My vox continental cost like a grand in 66,, and that didnt include the super reverb that was my first amp. A thousand bucks was a crapper load of money back then becasue you could buy a new car for 2 grand. One of the reasons why I think we dont see alot of young people taking up keys is that typically its not an intrument you can learn to play from your buddies like most learn guitar.. and i would guess fewer kids are taking piano and organ lessons.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by rhat

I think we can all agree that quality keyboards have gotten cheaper. My vox continental cost like a grand in 66,, and that didnt include the super reverb that was my first amp. A thousand bucks was a crapper load of money back then becasue you could buy a new car for 2 grand. One of the reasons why I think we dont see alot of young people taking up keys is that typically its not an intrument you can learn to play from your buddies like most learn guitar.. and i would guess fewer kids are taking piano and organ lessons.

 

There's two reasons kids get into keyboards from what I see: 1) they took piano lessons, so they know the instrument. 2) they don't have any lessons in anything, but they can make some cool sounds with a synthesizer so they get one to just mess around with, become enamored with it, and take it from there.

I also know a few keyboard players who started out as singers or bass players who took it up as a second instrument to fill a spot in a band and just kept going with it.

[tucktronix]

 

Originally Posted by guido61

Yes, I conceeded to you a while back that I was probably exagerrating a bit to state the costs of a keyboard and guitar rig are equal. But the gap has decreased dramatically over the past several years. A used Motif-6 or XP-60 can be had for $500 easily. Starter boards like the MM6 are about the same price new. With one of those, a small powered monitor, a cheapy stand and a couple of cables and pedals and you're good to go for well under $1000. A guitarist these days is going to need a guitar, a Line-6 type pedal board and an amp to play them through. They're going to be well above $500 for all that. What's a drum set cost these days?

Yeah, keyboards can be expensive. And the more "pro" and involved you get with your rig, the more the gap between what a keyboard player and the other guys in the band are spending grows. But just starting out? I don't really see "cost being the barrier" as the one poster mentioned that I was inititally responding to.

 

You made some good points here. However, there are variables that determine the amount of money that is spent on keyboard gear, and it may be the same with guitars...??. I currently play in a R&B/swing band and a blues band, where the piano and organ sounds are in heavy use. That being said, the quality of those sounds(to me, at least) is very important. For my ears, my $2,000 Korg SV-1 is much better suited for piano than a $500 used Roland XP-30. Weighted keys is another factor that makes SV-1 the logical choice. For organ, a dedicated clone is the best way to go, unless the material or genre of music make the organ less prominent. There may be cheaper alternatives out there(Casio Privias, Korg SP250, etc), but I felt a better connection with the SV-1, and when it comes to getting a keyboard(or any instrument) that you connect with the most, money is usually no object.

[rhat]

 

Originally Posted by guido61

There's two reasons kids get into keyboards from what I see: 1) they took piano lessons, so they know the instrument. 2) they don't have any lessons in anything, but they can make some cool sounds with a synthesizer so they get one to just mess around with, become enamored with it, and take it from there.

I also know a few keyboard players who started out as singers or bass players who took it up as a second instrument to fill a spot in a band and just kept going with it.

 

What guy are you in your band ,, the guy who plays both guitar and keys or the singer who plays keys and harp etc? It doesnt seem like you have what i call a dedicated keyboard player thats only function is to play keys. Its more like your band uses the keys as more of a accessory type roles.

Depending on how you use a board has alot i think to do with what you feel is important. It may make some difference too if keyboard is your primary instrument. I play guitar and bass, but typically when bands find out I play keys ,, i am glued to the keyboard.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by rhat

What guy are you in your band ,, the guy who plays both guitar and keys or the singer who plays keys and harp etc? It doesnt seem like you have what i call a dedicated keyboard player thats only function is to play keys. Its more like your band uses the keys as more of a accessory type roles.

Depending on how you use a board has alot i think to do with what you feel is important.

 

I'm the keys and guitar guy. Keys is my primary instrument. I play guitar on the songs that don't have any/many keys and where 2 guitars sounds better. There's zero room for keys on, say, an AC/DC song. But plenty of room for a 2nd guitar.

The sax/harp guy took up keys quite late. He mostly just plays little fill in stuff here and there. But he's starting to get pretty good at it.

[tucktronix]

 

Originally Posted by guido61

There's two reasons kids get into keyboards from what I see: 1) they took piano lessons, so they know the instrument. 2) they don't have any lessons in anything, but they can make some cool sounds with a synthesizer so they get one to just mess around with, become enamored with it, and take it from there.

 

#2 perfectly describes how I got started

[Miket156]

 

 

 

 

 

By Guildo61:

I've been playing keyboards for 30 years. Entry level keyboards that can get somebody started playing in a band can be had for a few hundred dollars. Really good pro used stuff can be had for the same price. The Motif 6 that is still my primary board that I bought new in 2001 for over $2K are going every day on Ebay for $500. That's still a great board. There's a ton of great used gear out there for people just starting out. Cost need not be a deterrent to taking up keyboards, or be the "barrier to entry", as someone else put it, over any other instrument these days.

I have thousands of dollars invested in my rig. But you don't need a thousands-of-dollars rig to play in a band. And certainly not if you're just starting out.

Keyboards, unlike guitar and bass, can work just fine being folded back through the monitors. And a small powered speaker works just fine. I use two Yamaha MS-400s for my monitors, but stereo sound on stage is a luxury, not a necessity. I do just fine at many gigs with a single speaker.

 

 

 

 

Judging by your post that quoted in my initial post, I thought you were something other than a KB player, my mistake.

Sure, an aspiring KB player can buy a used Motif to get started playing in a band. But that

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by tucktronix

You made some good points here. However, there are variables that determine the amount of money that is spent on keyboard gear, and it may be the same with guitars...??. I currently play in a R&B/swing band and a blues band, where the piano and organ sounds are in heavy use. That being said, the quality of those sounds(to me, at least) is very important.

 

Sure. But that happens with every instrument. You get hooked; you want better and better sound; you spend more money. But to the degree this conversation is about just getting started in a band, my argument is cost isn't really that much of a factor. If you're a bunch of kids putting together your first band, I really don't see keyboards costing that much more than a guitar setup or a drum set.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by Miket156

Judging by your post that quoted in my initial post, I thought you were something other than a KB player, my mistake.

Sure, an aspiring KB player can buy a used Motif to get started playing in a band. But that

[rhat]

 

Originally Posted by guido61

I'm the keys and guitar guy. Keys is my primary instrument. I play guitar on the songs that don't have any/many keys and where 2 guitars sounds better. There's zero room for keys on, say, an AC/DC song. But plenty of room for a 2nd guitar.

The sax/harp guy took up keys quite late. He mostly just plays little fill in stuff here and there. But he's starting to get pretty good at it.

 

Thats cool ,, lots of song really have no place for a keyboard player,,, I would rather just go on break early rather than try to cram square pegs into round holes on songs where there is no reason for keys.

[Miket156]

 

by guido61:

I use stereo monitors when I can because I like the stereo sound behind me on stage. But I only send a mono signal to the FOH. Most bands I know run their FOH in mono. So stereo sound on stage is a luxury for me and any band who runs mono FOH.

 

Got ya. With a stereo system you can pan L&R to center and send the summed output to a mono FOH PA system without loses the benefit of the stereo samples. My comment is using mono at the source system and its inability to generate the full sound of stereo samples. Stereo sampled acoustic piano sounds on my ES8 sound fatter and fuller than the mono piano sample that Yamaha put on the instrument for use in mono. One of the traps of using a mono system with an instrument is knowing which sounds were sampled in stereo and which are mono. There is not documentation on my ES8 that tells which are which. Only a few mono sampled sounds that are named as such. For the rest, drop back 10 and punt.

Cheers,

Mike T.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by rhat

Thats cool ,, lots of song really have no place for a keyboard player,,, I would rather just go on break early rather than try to cram square pegs into round holes on songs where there is no reason for keys.

 

Yeah. I don't like adding a lot of stuff that isn't there. If it's a jam-type song, that's one thing. But if you need to get a certain sound to do the cover justice, then I'd rather just leave stuff alone.

One song we do "Panama" by Van Halen, doesn't even sound right to me with 2 guitars. A 2nd guitar part would just muck up those Van Halen guitar riffs. So I just hang back and sing backgrounds on that one.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by Miket156

Got ya. With a stereo system you can pan L&R to center and send the summed output to a mono FOH PA system without loses the benefit of the stereo samples. [/quote}

 

I have all my keyboards and modules in stereo in my mixer, and I have a stereo out to my stage monitors. I use an Alesis 12M rack mixer so I'm able to get my Motif 6, JV 1080 module and my EMU Proteus 2000 all in stereo. I run two separate stereo outs from the Proteus because I send a separate signal for my organ patches so I can run those through a Dynacord 222 Lesilie Simulator. I also have a Line6 module that I run in stereo for my guitar. And another mono line for my acoustic guitar. I also use a Roland A-37 controller on stage and both the controller and the Motif can trigger the modules. A fairly old-school set-up by today's standards, but it still serves me pretty well.

If I only have room for one monitor, I use a Y-cable to sum them. Sometimes I don't even have room for one, and just fold my sound back through the monitors. I don't like that sound nearly as much, but sometimes those compromises have to be made.

I sum my stereo signal for the FOH with a DI box. I've thought of running my keys in stereo through the mains, but I always end up figuring that for every person who gets a great stereo sound in the middle of the room, there will be 2 others on either side of the mains who get a worse sound than if they just got a mono signal. So I leave it alone.

[Keyrick]

Depending on the type of music you play, there are different requirements for the various players. In my band (classic rock cover), the rhythm guitarist plays, for the most part a distorted guitar. The lead guitarist plays both clean and processed tones. The bass player plays bass. The sax player plays Tenor, Alto, and Soprano Sax and the flute as well. The drummer drums, no triggers or synths pads.

I, on the other hand play piano, organ, synth pads, synth leads, horns, strings, and sometimes tamborine! To accomplish this I have a considerable investment in my rig. Hell, I paid $20.00 for my tamborine.

Sometimes I have to play a combination of these instruments at the same time. The "One Note At A Time" guys (I call them that ), the Bass and Sax players are alway the ones who ask me to play strings along with the piano or organ and trumpet simultaneously, it's no big deal, like I have 4 hands! These one sound only guys make me envious. And it may be that potential keys players see this and say it is not worth it, along with the expense of obtaining a decent rig. It is less of a hassle to pick up a Bass. Now to be fair to my Sax player, his horns are not cheap. But he can load his stuff into a gig in one trip. A keys player, even with just one board, amplification, stands, and cables can't do that. So there may be a hassle factor involved in some young people getting into keys. When kids see my live rig, a PC3X, a VK8 and a small PA, they are usually impressed, but they think that climbing the mountain to get there is not an effort that they want to take on, and it discourages them from doing so.

So that is, IMHO, another factor into why there are fewer keys players out there.

Rick

[DevilRaysFan]

 

Originally Posted by Miket156

I am still leary of laptops as the mainstay of a KB rig. ........going at the same time, a laptop can hiccup, or other nasty things can happen.

 

 

Originally Posted by jplanet

Keep in mind that Fantoms/Motifs, etc. are just computers housed in a hardware keyboard - they have CPUs that can overheat, software bugs, and all the possibilities of crashing or malfunctioning that any computer has. The nice thing is, if your laptop crashes, you just turn up the volume on the

 

Miket156, up until recently, I used to think as you. The difference between a laptop and a hardware synth/keyboard is that computers are generally made for general purpose as opposed to music specific (unless otherwise made that way). There is a bit of setup and tweaking that has to be done to a laptop for proper syncing and latency reduction but, once hooked, I find it hard to want to rely only on hardware synths anymore as the flexibility, sound library, and editing with a laptop system are almost infinite. As far as reliability, well, laptops are designed to be portable therefore are designed to take tender sorts of abuse (just like a keyboard).

Im now hooked and use a hybrid system live: one hardware synth (bottom) and the laptop/M-Audio controller system (top), each a failsafe for each other if the other fails

 

Originally Posted by Miket156

A laptop computer with freeware or even commercial software installed is going to depend upon all that software being

[tucktronix]

 

Originally Posted by DevilRaysFan

If you ever go the virtual route, wait til you try the Native Instruments B4 VSTi....Yowza!!!

 

I've actually sat in on a rig of a fellow keyboard player that included a laptop running NI B4. For my ears, it sounded pretty thin and metallic in some areas.

I now have what I think is one killer B3 clone setup - Korg CX3 + Ventilator. Thus far, I haven't heard anything else outside of real B3 that sounds as good.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by DevilRaysFan

As far as reliability, well, laptops are designed to be portable therefore are designed to take tender sorts of abuse (just like a keyboard).

Im now hooked and use a hybrid system live: one hardware synth (bottom) and the laptop/M-Audio controller system (top), each a failsafe for each other if the other fails

 

I'm not really interested in dragging around a lap top. I try to keep my rig as compact and easy to set up as possible. So it's a rack of gear right out the trailer to the stage, a couple of boards on a stand, and a few cables from the rack to the boards and I'm done.

IIRC, doesn't somebody make a rackmount module that let's you load virtual synths into it and then just run midi into it and play it like a regular sound module? Do you have any knowledge/experience with those?

[tucktronix]

 

Originally Posted by guido61

IIRC, doesn't somebody make a rackmount module that let's you load virtual synths into it and then just run midi into it and play it like a regular sound module? Do you have any knowledge/experience with those?

 

Muse Receptor.. the bass player in one of my bands owns one and he swears by it.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by tucktronix

Muse Receptor.. the bass player in one of my bands owns one and he swears by it.

 

If they are reliable, then that would be the way to go, I would think. At least for us old farts who are much more about midi than USB and much more about real than virtual synths.

I gotta look into one of those. I'd love to be able have access to any synth I wanted in one unit. Especially old vintage stuff. I'm getting all gushy thinking P5 and PPG as I speak!

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by tucktronix

Muse Receptor.. the bass player in one of my bands owns one and he swears by it.

 

Hmmm just looked one up. They look VERY cool. They start at $2K though...

might have to look for an older used model. But I'm starting to get that "I GOTTA have one of those" vibes running through me....

[coyote-1]

I'm not really a keyboardist, though I have learned to muddle through on them. I can do some challenging stuff, if given time to learn.

I got fired by a band because I couldn't instantly do all the keyboard parts plus the horn parts plus some guitar parts PLUS sing harmonies in a bunch of Motown/funk tunes. It took two trained keyboardists to replace me, and the band fizzled within two months of that anyway. I was kinda relieved because I originally signed on only to help them make a demo video of five songs - next thing I know, there are 300 songs I have to learn

 

Originally Posted by Chicken Monkey

Keyboard is hard to play, and most bands want you to play pedal tones throughout 90% of the set, then blaze away at some theoretically impossible part for the remaining 10% of the set.

 

Yeah, the demands on keyboard players can be intense.

[DevilRaysFan]

 

Originally Posted by tucktronix

I've actually sat in on a rig of a fellow keyboard player that included a laptop running NI B4. For my ears, it sounded pretty thin and metallic in some areas.

 

It may have been the settings on the guy's rig, his interface, and/or the particular patches. There are plenty of patches I dont care for, too

 

Originally Posted by guido61

But I'm starting to get that "I GOTTA have one of those" vibes running through me....

 

LOL -- Yeah, me too