It's settled: Do what you want. It's all good.

[Vito Corleone]

I just re-read this and... as sarcastic as it was intended, there is some sense to it. "...anything anybody wants to do on stage is good and if that's the way they are doing it, then that's the way it should be done." That's what makes things interesting. Something that is lacking in most of what I see being offered by today's cover bands. Corporate event or corner bar, the lack of imagination is astounding. The lack of unique outlook is... boring. And cheesy. So yes, DO WHAT YOU WANT. And hone the crap out of it.

 

 

I agree with pretty much all of this. And falls right in line with what I've been saying over and over. Do a search on the word "niche" and see how many posts I've written about the need for bands to niche themselves in their marketplace. To find ways to make themselves unique and stand out. That THAT'S the surest path to success.

 

And those ways to stand out can be either musical or non-musical or a bit of both. But do SOMETHING to be unique and 'better' than the other bands in your market.

 

 

Just because someone has a way that you can not offend the most people so you can play a wedding... is that what you want? Is there even enough money now-a-days to warrant giving a {censored} and steering what you do for a certain style of event? Hone what you do. Not what standard operating procedure is. What possible motivation does any of you have to become a great bar or corporate event band anymore? So you can feel like a faux rock star? It's not going to fool anyone.

 

 

OK...your post was good at first, but what's THIS crap about? "Not offending the most people?" "standing operating procedure"? "Faux rock star?" What are you talking about? Sounds like you've got personal bug up your ass about something, Lee. But whatever the motivation, you're off-track and as near as I can figure what track you're trying to be on, you're wrong.

 

There's absolutely nothing wrong--and everything right--about gearing your cover band towards a particular market and meeting the clients needs and being the best band you can be within a certain business plan. That's just simply good business. There's nothing 'faux rock star' about it.

 

You wanna know who the 'faux rock stars' are in my estimation? The guys who think they are something special simply because of which song they choose to cover. You'd rather play Neil Young than Katy Perry? Fine. Play what you want. But just know it doesn't make you any more like Neil Young simply because you cover his music. It doesn't make you any more of an 'artist' to sit in a corner playing cover songs that only you care about regardless of what the audience thinks. You're not an artist for doing so. You're not fooling one. You're just a boring douchebag who probably should have stayed in the bedroom.

 

 

Stop fretting the projector and backdrop to please the wedding planner.

 

 

Because the music business is NOT just about music, my friend. It's a business. There's a lot that goes into pulling off a successful band and a successful show. Go take a quick read-through of J Paul's thread about everything his band has to go through on a daily basis just to make each show come off, and maybe you'll start to get a bit of an idea. Yeah, it might be nice if my band was enough of a big deal that I could hire an entire crew to deal with the daily logisitics and the show pieces and stuff like making sure the projector works and the client is happy, and I could do nothing but concentrate on the music and just show up and play, but it's not. We have to do all the stuff ourselves.

 

And I'm not so consumed with playing rock star in my head that I've convinced myself that if I can't be a million-dollar-a-year player who just shows up and plays that I'll just sit home and do nothing or play in a podunk $300 a night bar band. There's a whole big, wide world of work and fun out there for musicians providing entertainment for people. We're as much a small, fully-contained entertainment/live music/sound company as we are just a band. What's wrong with that? What about that pisses you off so much and you find so offensive? What about what I'm doing has you so convinced that what I'm doing is so big affront to the concept of 'good music'?

 

Really, this whole "stop fretting the projector and just make some {censored}ing MUSIC!!" line is about as pretentious as anything I've seen written on this forum. Who the {censored} do you think you are that you judge other musicians based on what type of band they are in or what sort of work is involved in doing their gigs? Really. I mean I know you just quit a band because the players didn't meet your personal level of musicianship, so you're probably frustrated and unhappy but really...get over yourself.

[Lee Knight]

I agree with pretty much all of this. And falls right in line with what I've been saying over and over. Do a search on the word "niche" and see how many posts I've written about the need for bands to niche themselves in their marketplace. To find ways to make themselves unique and stand out. That THAT'S the surest path to success. And those ways to stand out can be either musical or non-musical or a bit of both. But do SOMETHING to be unique and 'better' than the other bands in your market. OK...your post was good at first, but what's THIS crap about? "Not offending the most people?" "standing operating procedure"? "Faux rock star?" What are you talking about? Sounds like you've got personal bug up your ass about something, Lee. But whatever the motivation, you're off-track and as near as I can figure what track you're trying to be on, you're wrong. There's absolutely nothing wrong--and everything right--about gearing your cover band towards a particular market and meeting the clients needs and being the best band you can be within a certain business plan. That's just simply good business. There's nothing 'faux rock star' about it. You wanna know who the 'faux rock stars' are in my estimation? The guys who think they are something special simply because of which song they choose to cover. You'd rather play Neil Young than Katy Perry? Fine. Play what you want. But just know it doesn't make you any more like Neil Young simply because you cover his music. It doesn't make you any more of an 'artist' to sit in a corner playing cover songs that only you care about regardless of what the audience thinks. You're not an artist for doing so. You're not fooling one. You're just a boring douchebag who probably should have stayed in the bedroom. Because the music business is NOT just about music, my friend. It's a business. There's a lot that goes into pulling off a successful band and a successful show. Go take a quick read-through of J Paul's thread about everything his band has to go through on a daily basis just to make each show come off, and maybe you'll start to get a bit of an idea. Yeah, it might be nice if my band was enough of a big deal that I could hire an entire crew to deal with the daily logisitics and the show pieces and stuff like making sure the projector works and the client is happy, and I could do nothing but concentrate on the music and just show up and play, but it's not. We have to do all the stuff ourselves. And I'm not so consumed with playing rock star in my head that I've convinced myself that if I can't be a million-dollar-a-year player who just shows up and plays that I'll just sit home and do nothing or play in a podunk $300 a night bar band. There's a whole big, wide world of work and fun out there for musicians providing entertainment for people. Really, this whole "stop fretting the projector and just make some {censored}ing MUSIC!!" line is about as pretentious as anything I've seen written on this forum. Who the {censored} do you think you are that you judge other musicians based on what type of band they are in or what sort of work is involved in doing their gigs? Really. I mean I know you just quit a band because the players didn't meet your personal level of musicianship, so you're probably frustrated and unhappy but really...get over yourself.

I know. It just gets old seeing the same stuff being held up as important. And other things being dismissed a little too quickly. I do think the projector line of mine is spot on. You yourself were making the point that it needed to be setup and what would it be like if you tried to explain to the band that you couldn't do certain things because you were busy working on music. As if that was an irresponsible thing.

I get that I might sound pretentious. But it feels more and more, the things that are being focused upon are the easy ticket items. Yes, setup a great PA, yes, have some sort of visual interest incorporated... but the amount of focus is lopsided in my opinion.

Music stands? Shorts?

These are no brainers. If someone decides they disagree, who cares? They've got it figured out.

So when I read your OP again, it really struck me as presumptuous. It felt like it needed a rebuttal. The indignity you were suffering that someone might not agree with your slant of how a band should be run. Really... look at the thread title and call me pretentious. So I'm having fun with you!

I will admit all of that ^ does bring out a less than pure side of my personality. I guess I'm inspired by your larger than life persona around here. OK, I'll stop.

As for the band I quit, I know it sounds horrible to say they weren't good enough. I by no means am saying I'm any great shakes though. Really, it was just as simple as them not being good enough. We've ALL been there.

[rog951]

Went on vacation for a few days; glad to see the debate is still raging! If I had any sense, I'd just stay out of it but...

 

Basically, Lee Knight hit it on the head with the post above IMO. I have no problem with anyone providing their opinion on any subject. But, some of the regulars on this board seem to have it in their head that everyone else's band should run like their own. I hate to single out Guido, but I will for illustrative purposes: no question, he is part of a very successful band. But, it's also a band which I'd have zero interest being in. That's not a knock in any way, it's just that our situations are different and that's not the kind of experience I want. Not that I can't learn from his experiences - I most certainly can, and have, and probably will continue to - but I don't need the points driven home to that degree. It just gets to be too much.

 

So, back to generality here: state your case and move on. Fine. But please don't belabor the point and cause every damn thread to spiral into a lengthy debate. The same exact debate we've all heard a million times. No shorts. No music stands. Setlist needs to be ______. We get it. I'd bet that lots of gigging newbs who want to ask questions are scared away by the threat of ridicule. Sorry, but that's the vibe I get off this place sometimes and I think it's a shame. It makes this forum less desireable, for me anyway, and I'd bet other good people with valuable experiences to offer might just stay away because of the negativity that is prevalant here.

[Vito Corleone]

So yeah...let me briefly recap my Saturday gig and how it went down and you can tell me about how much bull{censored} you think it all was. Because, for me, it was all about hard work, good fun, and feeling satisfied and rewarded:

8 AM: Time to start doing the final details before leaving the house: print up setlists, pack up my gear, pack my clothes in my car. Gotta pick up the drummer at 9:45 so we can be to the bass player's house by 10:30 to pack up the trailer.

10:30 AM: at the bass player's house to pack up the trailer so we can be on the road by 11. {censored}! I realize I left my garment back lying on my bed. Has all my stage clothes in it. I don't have anything else appropriate to wear and nothing I can borrow from anyone. I HAVE to do the 45 minute drive back to my house. I tell the guys to finish packing up the trailer and head down the road and I can meet them at a location that, with any luck, will only set us back about 30-45 min. As I'm driving I realize this set back probably means no stopping for lunch, so I text them to grab something now while they are waiting for me. I get home, grab my clothes and the only "ready to go" food I can find in the fridge---3 uncooked weenies.

11:50 AM: I meet the guys and we get in the car and go. They've all got sandwiches with them. No one thought to buy me anything. That's OK, I didn't think to ask them. Bass player shares 3 chicken wings with me though.

3:30 PM: Arrive at the venue. Beautiful winery in Sonoma. Try to find who's who and what's what. We know going into it that this one is going to be a bitch of a day. Not only do we have to play 3 hours of music from 9-12, but we have to provide recorded music and wireless mics for speeches in 3 other locations on three different levels. The band is playing upstairs in the wine-tasting room which means either loading up two flights of stairs or using a very long ramp. (We're told the elevator is "not working". Hmmmm.... funny how many elevators 'don't work' in these sorts of places. Pretty sure this is a violation of California law that requires immediate attention lest the venue be fined, but whatever. For the bands, they always seem to be "not working".) We opt for the ramp. We can load out and stack the equipment in an adjacent room but we can't start doing any actual setup until the wine-tasting room is closed to the public at 5.

4:30 PM: Everything that needs to be upstairs is upstairs, and the soundguy and I set up a couple of powered monitors and a mixer where the cocktail hour will be and start running the iPod. Everything is pretty easy so far.

5 PM: Start setting up the band. Nobody that works at the place has any idea which outlets are on which circuits, but we're told that "the outlets on this side of the room don't work". Gonna guess that circuit and the one that does work are the only two circuits in the room. Hoping that the circuit we're using outside and downstairs for the cocktail setup is a separate circuit (you never know in buildings this old) we decide to run all the lights off that circuit and tell the girls to run an extension cord outside and drape it down the side of the building. Wedding ceremony starts at 7. We need to be pretty much done setting up by then and have to give them 2 wireless mics and speakers out in that area. This is just outside the door from where the band is set up, so we can run the wireless through the main mixer and just set up another powered speaker outside. Windy day, but other than that everything is going fine.

7 PM: Ceremony begins. I've got to man the iPod for their recorded music cues while the soundman mixes the wireless mics. Unconventional ceremony: bride is wearing a black dress and holding a glass of wine through the entire thing. Mostly young people in attendance---this a destination wedding and most everyone flew out from Chicago. This looks like a fun crowd. Meanwhile, the other guys have to move the cocktail hour satellite rig to the "cave" where the dinner will begin at 7:30. Weird, very long, narrow room. All the guests are seated on either side of one long table. Looks like some sort of medieval banquet. We have to run a bunch of XLR cables together just to accomodate the distance between speakers.

7:30 PM: Ceremony is done, but girls are having trouble getting the system to work. One speaker is making a horrible buzz. I tell them I'll take care of it. I can't figure it out. Thinking we have a bad cable, I run back upstairs and grab the XLRs we used to run around the side of the building for the ceremony speakers. After setting those up, it STILL doesn't work right. Where the {censored} IS everyone? I'm doing this by myself. I run outside and see most everyone else standing around taking a smoke-break. I tell them to grab another speaker as I think maybe the speaker isn't working right. We switch out the powered speaker. Same problem. Sound guy thinks that either all the XLRs are creating sound sort of ground-loop, or the output on the working speaker has gone bad. I think I need to mark that speaker so we know to check it out later, but I forget to do so. We have to run with one speaker. Hopefully it will be enough to cover the room. I show the wedding planner how to work the wireless mic and tell her we need to go eat (I'm starving. I haven't had anything to eat but 3 weenies and 3 chicken wings all day.) and take off hoping it will be OK.

8 PM: we're set up far enough away from the dinner that we can actually do a sound check. Cool. We run over the two songs we had to learn for the 'special dances', and a new pop hit we learned. First time the full band has run over this stuff. "God Only Knows" sounds a bit sketchy---such a strange arrangement and instrumentation on that tune--, but we work up a nice vocal 'round' for the end bit.

8:30 PM: we can finally sit down to eat. Serve yourself food provided for the vendors in the kitchen. Chicken pasta and salad. Not much left as we're the last people to eat, but the pasta is REALLY good. Heck, I'm so hungry, the garmet bag I had to spend an extra hour picking up would have tasted good at this point to me. Tiffany and I fight over the last bit left in the tray for 2nds.

9 PM: guest start coming up to the room, so it's time to start playing. We play their two 'special songs' and they go over great. First set goes over well, but it's a bit sloppier than usual. Some dropped notes and beats and forgotten lyrics.

10:45 PM: we take a break and I'm telling the band I think we played too sloppy, and we need to all have our head in the game more. I get met mostly with "they seem to love us anyway..." Hmmm.. and hmmm...I'll deal with them later I guess.

11:10 PM: we start the 2nd set with Tiff and I doing "Wonderful World". Haven't played that one in a while. I flub a chord badly in the 2nd verse and I can see the rest of the band off to the side laughing. Hey, I meant ALL of us need to have our head in the game better. INCLUDING me!

12:00 AM: Last song. We're getting rave reviews from the guests. Tear down is going slow because we're spending a lot of time talking with the crowd and taking pictures. Bride is going on and on about how great we were and how she couldn't believe she found us on the internet. Mentions how her friends questioned her hiring a band without hearing them first, but she said she just knew we'd be good, and credits part of that to how "professional" Amy sounded on the phone and how much she attended to the details. That's my girl! Father of the bride (who didn't pay for the band, we were paid by a check written by the groom) hands us an envelope with $350 in it. Nice! That will pay for the projector repair, which we went without for this show. He too is raving about how much fun everyone had and how great the band was. Nice little bonus on top of the $4500 payday.

2 AM: Load out is done...finally. Long load out down that long ramp. Half hour drive to the hotel they put us up at.

2:30 AM: Check into the hotel. 4 rooms at the Hilton...nice!. Soundguy doesn't stay as he has an early gig the next day, so that means I get a room to myself. Bonus! We do our usual huddle up in a room for an hour together and talk about how the gig went and what we have coming up. The playing-sloppy stuff comes up and Tiffany brings up a point that sounds a bit like 'making excuses' to me, but is valid nonetheless: we're all very busy people with very busy lives. Everyone has families and careers. Most of us still have little kids in the house. Running this 'weekends only' band at the level we do it is a LOT of work and commitment from everyone as it is. Especially with all the members spread out over such distances. We'll likely never be as tight as a band that plays 5 nights a week or rehearses a couple times a week. There probably IS a 'ceiling' to how good and tight everything--musical and otherwise--can be within the limitations of who we are and how we do what we do. But that we pull it all off to great success on a regular basis obviously means we're doing a lot of things very well.

3:30 AM. My head hits the pillow. It's been a LONG day. One of the longest, most involved gigs I can remember doing in awhile. But it feels good. I sleep solid.

So yeah...if all of that is bull{censored} to a lot of you guys, so be it. That's the kind of MUSIC-BASED entertainment we provide. I'm not going to tell anyone what they are doing is wrong. I can only offer suggestions on how to do certain aspects better if that's what anyone is interested in. If there's stuff you can take from what I do...great. If not...that's great too.

[Vito Corleone]

I know. It just gets old seeing the same stuff being held up as important. And other things being dismissed a little too quickly. I do think the projector line of mine is spot on. You yourself were making the point that it needed to be setup and what would it be like if you tried to explain to the band that you couldn't do certain things because you were busy working on music. As if that was an irresponsible thing.

It's ALL important. That's the point I made pages ago. If you want to hold up the music as "most important" I agree with you. But that doesn't mean anything else can be ignored. It can't. So yes, ignoring things like the projector so I can concentrate harder on something else---ANYTHING else--INCLUDING the music--WOULD be irresponsible.

I get that I might sound pretentious. But it feels more and more, the things that are being focused upon are the easy ticket items. Yes, setup a great PA, yes, have some sort of visual interest incorporated... but the amount of focus is lopsided in my opinion.

First of all, done well none of that stuff is particularly 'easy ticket'. May seem like it from the outside, but once you get involved in any of it, doing things RIGHT is always work.

Amount of focus is lopsided? How do you know? Come to one of our gigs first and then let me know if you think our balance is lop-sided. But from my position on this forum, I see people who put NO attention to those other things AT ALL. THAT is lop-sided, if you ask me.

As for the band I quit, I know it sounds horrible to say they weren't good enough. I by no means am saying I'm any great shakes though. Really, it was just as simple as them not being good enough. We've ALL been there.

Some more than others. I don't know your personal history, but there are many people on this forum who have played in more bands in just the last 2 years since we added the girls and started focusing on bigger gigs then I've played in during my entire 35-years of doing this. The core of my band has been together 10 years. We get along great musically and personally and have a hell of a lot of fun.

I feel sorry for the guys here who are constantly going from band-to-band looking for a personal satisfaction they never seem to find. My point is: maybe if you're having a hard time getting your nut by pursuing stuff on such a pure music-only basis, maybe it's time to rethink your business model. There's a lot of ways to find fun and satisfaction doing this. Don't copy what I do. Please don't. We don't need the competition. But open your mind to wider possiblities.

[Lee Knight]

I feel sorry for the guys here who are constantly going from band-to-band looking for a personal satisfaction they never seem to find. My point is: maybe if you're having a hard time getting your nut by pursuing stuff on such a pure music-only basis, maybe it's time to rethink your business model. There's a lot of ways to find fun and satisfaction doing this. Don't copy what I do. Please don't. We don't need the competition. But open your mind to wider possiblities.

Well, that would stand to reason, but it really isn't the case. These were good friends who asked me to join. Not pro musicians. I thought I could make it work but in reality it wasn't very fun for me. Lots of players filling between the vocalist trying to be heard and it became something of an amateur hour. Not fun. I loved the music first stance of the band and so do their fans. I still love the guys.

It really was just a case of a mismatch between them and me and their level of experience.

But frankly, as you may have picked up, I'm kind of done with it. Recording my songs, getting players together in my studio, that's fun and puts the emphasis where I want it to be. On the music.

My point has always been, LET THE MUSIC DRIVE YOU. Don't be driven by things other than that. Image, show, sound, all of it is important but is always better when driven by the music. It feels that a lot of what gets discussed around here is the other way 'round. And frankly, it is never as effective.

But yeah, I get why you'd assume I must be doing things wrong having just left a group unsatisfied. Clearly my outlook on all this is wrong. Right?

[toddkuen]

... The guys who think they are something special simply because of which song they choose to cover. You'd rather play Neil Young than Katy Perry? Fine. Play what you want. But just know it doesn't make you any more like Neil Young simply because you cover his music. It doesn't make you any more of an 'artist' to sit in a corner playing cover songs that only you care about regardless of what the audience thinks. You're not an artist for doing so. You're not fooling one. You're just a boring douchebag who probably should have stayed in the bedroom. ....

Huh?

In the last five years or so I have been here this is probably one of the harshest and most critical generic "every kind of music but what I do" put downs I have ever seen on this forum. It even puts down the fans...

Certainly if I were interested in posting on this forum (my band, pics, questions, videos) as a newbie/young/starting out musician I'd think very long and very hard before exposing myself to this kind of harsh judgement and criticism.



Note to Lurkers and Newbies: Fan's in my experience know the difference between someone who puts a lot of care, effort and love into what they do and a pretentious ass going through the motions.

[Vito Corleone]

My point has always been, LET THE MUSIC DRIVE YOU. Don't be driven by things other than that. Image, show, sound, all of it is important but is always better when driven by the music. It feels that a lot of what gets discussed around here is the other way 'round. And frankly, it is never as effective.

 

Again, you're making generalities here that soun good as generalities, but fall apart when you really try to look into them. "Let the music drive you"? What does that mean? All the other show-oriented may seem like a distraction to you, but done right and it's enhancement, not distraction. Of course the music is at the core of what we do. We're a BAND first and foremost. The MUSIC is what it's all about.

 

But if your point is that it better to use a bottom-up business model of only playing music you personally love and then try to find gig as opposed to a more top-down model of sussing out the marketplace and building a band to fit that---then you're dead wrong that it's "never as effective". "Never as effectice" at accomplishing WHAT exactly? Personal satisfaction? Getting gigs? Having a successful band? What, exactly, is that model "never as effective" at accomplishing? Because I can point you to hundreds, if not thousands of examples that would indicated you're wrong.

 

Has that model never worked for you? If not, then fine. Obviously you should ignore all advice given in that regard. Especially if you're having all the success (however you may define it) you want doing it from the bottom-up approach. But have you ever really TRIED it? Or just dismissed to model out of hand because it looks superficially 'cheesy' to you?

 

But yeah, I get why you'd assume I must be doing things wrong having just left a group unsatisfied. Clearly my outlook on all this is wrong. Right?

 

Nah, like I said, I don't know all your personal history, and then I went on to mention "there are many people here". If you're in that group or not? I dunno. I don't know how many bands you've gone through in the last few years looking for something "better" or not. If there's been a bunch, then yes. I'd say your outlook is pretty obviously wrong and not working for you. If not? Then my comment wasn't meant for you.

[Vito Corleone]

Went on vacation for a few days; glad to see the debate is still raging! If I had any sense, I'd just stay out of it but... Basically, Lee Knight hit it on the head with the post above IMO. I have no problem with anyone providing their opinion on any subject. But, some of the regulars on this board seem to have it in their head that everyone else's band should run like their own. I hate to single out Guido, but I will for illustrative purposes: no question, he is part of a very successful band. But, it's also a band which I'd have zero interest being in. That's not a knock in any way, it's just that our situations are different and that's not the kind of experience I want. Not that I can't learn from his experiences - I most certainly can, and have, and probably will continue to - but I don't need the points driven home to that degree. It just gets to be too much.

 

Yeah, I agree I post too much, and I probably wouldn't want to read all my {censored} either. I'll try to cut down.

 

But before I do that.... ..... maybe I need to put this in my sig or something because I don't know how many more times I can repeat it but nothing I say is EVER intended as telling anyone what they are doing is wrong if they are successful and happy doing what they are doing. I'm not looking at any one who is happy and successful and saying "don't wear shorts". So why people are telling me--when I'm obviously successful and happy---that MY approach is wrong? I don't get it.

 

Problem is, I don't see a whole lot of examples of "only about the music" guys here who seem to be that happy or successful. 3gtrshift with his very, very good jazz band maybe. MartinC with his very, very good latin/flamenco trio (even though I know Martin understands the need to dress appropriately for a gig) maybe? I'm sure there are a few others. But my comments are not ever directed at those guys. It's the guys who are doing it their way and expressing a desire for "something more/better" that I'm talking to.

 

And yeah. If your goal is to be a ROCK band, then get rid of the stands and shorts and be a {censored}ING ROCK BAND ALREADY. Again...the guys who started this stuff? Elvis...Chuck Berry...The Beatles...Led Zep...etc etc. They all knew how to rock and wouldn't have been caught dead on stage in shorts or with a music stand. The later rock guys that many of us grew up wanting to be like---Van Halen, Foreigner, Boston, ELO, Bon Jovi, Motley Crue, (enter your favorite rock band name here) etc etc etc .... same thing. So when did it become OK for stands and shorts to be OK and not be considered 'lazy'? So yes. It IS a lowering-of-the-bar that has affected the overall appearance, image and public perception of rock bands and has lead to the decline of the live music business. I do truely believe that.

 

And yes. Play as well as you possibly can. Absolutely. 100%. Every day.

[Vito Corleone]

But if you suck as a plumber or ice sculpturist (or no longer care about the work) all the great business skill, marketing and how-to books in the world ain't going to help. Sure you might get by but people will notice and care.

 

absolutely. This 100%. But that doesn't diminish the importance of good businees and marketing. If someone writes a book about how to have a great plumbing business, they should be met with responses of "don't forget to not leave any leaks!" That's nonsense.

 

So for those of us that want to talk about the business of the live music business. Where should we do that if not this forum?

 

In the last five years or so I have been here this is probably one of the harshest and most critical generic "every kind of music but what I do" put downs I have ever seen on this forum. It even puts down the fans...

Huh? Where did I say anything about "every kind of music but what I do"?" Where did you get THAT out of what I wrote?

 

And it's interesting you see MY post as harsh, but the one I was responding to:

Just because someone has a way that you can not offend the most people so you can play a wedding... is that what you want? Is there even enough money now-a-days to warrant giving a {censored} and steering what you do for a certain style of event?

 

Hone what you do. Not what standard operating procedure is. What possible motivation does any of you have to become a great bar or corporate event band anymore?

 

So you can feel like a faux rock star? It's not going to fool anyone.

 

was not? Really? That didn't sound just as harsh to you?

 

 

Certainly if I were interested in posting on this forum (my band, pics, questions, videos) as a newbie/young/starting out musician I'd think very long and very hard before exposing myself to this kind of harsh judgement and criticism.

 

Maybe some examples then? Wanna show where any newbie has posted some stuff here and I've offered anything but encouragement or gentle-criticism and advice? Yeah, I can be harsh with the guys who have been harsh with me. Absoutely I strike back. Everytime.

 

But if you're going to make direct accusations, you might want to provide an example first rather than just talking out your ass.

 

Note to Lurkers and Newbies: Fan's in my experience know the difference between someone who puts a lot of care, effort and love into what they do and a pretentious ass going through the motions.

 

Absolutely. Agree 100%. Which is why we get constant and effusive praise and adulation from the people we play for. Because we put a lot of care and effort and love into what we do. ALL aspects of it. Instead of sitting in the corner staring at our shoes and snobbily dismissing audiences, clubowners and other musicians who aren't as "serious about the music" as we are.

[Lee Knight]

Again, you're making generalities here that soun(d) good as generalities, but fall apart when you really try to look into them. "Let the music drive you"? What does that mean?

 

 

I don't think your band does let the music drive all the other things. So I get why this doesn't resonate with you. I don't mean that as a slam either. But it is what I see. I do see your band standing to improve greatly by letting the music drive the show, the moves, the attitude. The crowd interaction. All of it. I don't get a real sense of pulse and drive and passion from what I've heard and seen.

 

Look at Page, look at James Brown, look at Bootsy. Now look at a disconnected wedding singer. And I've seen some great wedding singers. But there are a lot that really don't understand connecting to the music.

 

So, no... I am not talking pretty. Not blowing smoke. I'm referring to a very real phenomenon. All the talk of music stands and shorts and what have you is fine, but if you dont' connect to the music in any sort of real way... why bother?

 

I've tried to talk around it, but there it is.

[kmart]

Man, I don't understand all the pleas and cries of 'make a kindler/gentler setting for the noobz', etc. AT ALL.

I want to hear what people who have playing experience are doing, what works, what doesn't. I want to hear from the people who are out there gigging regularly, with bands that actually function (reasonably well). I want to hear from Guido, and JPaul and Grant, etc.

If that scares away inexperienced folks, people who just started playing, etc., and it means there won't be any more threads where someone asks to be baby-stepped through how to get their basement project out into the local VFW hall, or what does everyone REALLY think about the value of a battle-of-the-bands and so on...GOOD.

[Lee Knight]

Man, I don't understand all the pleas and cries of 'make a kindler/gentler setting for the noobz', etc. AT ALL. I want to hear what people who have playing experience are doing, what works, what doesn't. I want to hear from the people who are out there gigging regularly, with bands that actually function (reasonably well). I want to hear from Guido, and JPaul and Grant, etc. If that scares away inexperienced folks, people who just started playing, etc., and it means there won't be any more threads where someone asks to be baby-stepped through how to get their basement project out into the local VFW hall, or what does everyone REALLY think about the value of a battle-of-the-bands and so on...GOOD.

 

 

I agree to an extent. But I also think those extremes can operate together. Over at the Songwriting Forum, you've got guys that are signed to publishing deals alongside guys posting their first poem. the fact of the matter is, the noobs improve quickly. And the silverbacks get better by helping the noobs. It's a very cool, symbiotic cycle.

 

I really use that as the benchmark. When a guy implies, "This is the way", it usually isn't the only way. It's his way. Hey, everybody should be themselves. But sometimes stepping off the pedestal of "rightness" allows everyone to learn even more. There is a sense of discovery instead of being force fed "the right way".

[rog951]

 

Well, you've already got what you want then, because that's pretty much what this forum is. The major contributors here number in the single digits - maybe low double digits at best. It's not just inexperienced folks getting "scared away," it's folks that have lots of gigging background that just don't feel like dealing with all the negative bull{censored}. I say this because I know a few of these people...I've been actively trying to recruit some for a while, in the interest of bringing in a little variety and a lot of knowledge. Seems like they may lurk for a while but, so far anyway, they end up not posting.

 

And don't get me wrong - I'm not pushing for a "beginner's forum" by any stretch. I appreciate everyone's sincere contributions to this forum, and there are some very knowledgeable people playing in some very successful bands posting here. I just think there's a lot more close-minded harping and nit-picking than necessary and the vibe of the place kinda suffers because of it. I also realize this is the interwebz and some hostility is to be expected.

 

So basically, I dunno what I'm saying!

[Vito Corleone]

I don't think your band does let the music drive all the other things.

 

You've never seen my band. So what's your reasoning for this assumption? Because we don't play songs you consider to be "musical" enough? Did I post a live clip and you thought we weren't very good or something? Because the song choice is driven, in part, by market decisions?

 

So what? They are just cover songs. As I have said many times, and on which I think you agree, it's not what SONG you play, it's HOW you play it. And, while YMMV, my definition of playing a song well is how well you connect with the audience. Song CHOICE is just one aspect of delivering that song and that message to the audience. And we do that. Every song. All night long. Every gig. Trust me....we're not sitting around wondering what song to play next or how to play it differently so we can capture the audiences attention. We HAVE it. What else is a live performance supposed to be ABOUT? Do we implement other elements as part of the show besides just the music to do this? Yes. Of course. Bands have been doing this for decades. That's how it's done. If you, or others can get results that please you without anything but the music---GREAT! How many more times can say that?

 

I do see your band standing to improve greatly by letting the music drive the show, the moves, the attitude. The crowd interaction. All of it. I don't get a real sense of pulse and drive and passion from what I've heard and seen.

 

Then maybe you should come out and see a show. All I can tell you is the connection is there. The pulse and drive and passion is there. Sorry, but you don't get the audience response we get consistantly without pulse and drive and passion. It can't be faked and it isn't. I don't know how else to put it. Are we the most fantabulous players to ever take the stage? Far from it. But I'll guarantee you we're better individually and as a band than the majority of guys on this forum blabbering on about 'connecting to the music'. Would you ever want to join my band? Probably not. That's fine. I don't see my bass player wanting to leave any time soon. He loves the gig.

 

How about the passion and energy and tightness that comes from 4 guys who have played together for a decade and adding 2 very good singers on top of that and everyone in the band having a great and fun time during the entire process. Even through the bull{censored} of setting up lights and dealing with bridezillas at weddings.

 

Here's the bottom line:

 

the results speak for themselves. In music as in pretty much every other endeavor in life.

 

We have a great time playing our gigs. We have a great time being a band. Our audiences love our performances. As many have said here, you can't fake that {censored}. If we were faking it without being connected it would show up in the audience response and the client reviews. It would show up in the bottom line of how much money people would be willing to pay to have us perform for them. We finish our performances feeling spent, exhausted and fulfilled. We work our asses off up there on stage.

 

It doesn't seem like we're "connecting to the music" to you? Sorry. Don't know what to tell you. I guess maybe I need a better videographer if what we're doing hasn't come through in the clips I've posted?? Well, live video is a problem sometimes. I've posted about that before. One reason I'm reluctant to use a lot of live video in our promo is it tends to be one-dimensional and not fully convey what the show is really like when you're there. Plus the audio is usually sketchy at best.

 

But the results are the results. Sorry. You think my band sucks? That's cool. To each his own. I guess we won't be playing for your next private event, will we?

 

But if you think any of us have any desire to change what we're doing and go play some blues jams or learn a bunch of "musician-y" tunes so we can better "connect" to the music, you're insane.

 

What? It doesn't suffice for me to tell you none of us feeling any emptiness or lacking from what we do? That we love the gigs we play, the crowds we play for, the response we get, the frequency of our gigs and the amount of money we make? This whole conversation is absolute nonsense. Guys come in here complaining about their gigs, the audiences and their money and I, like others, give advice on how they might improve that stuff. In response you're telling me about stuff we can do to improve what we do when I'm not complaining about anything lacking?? Why? For what goal? So YOU can feel better about what we do?

 

That doesn't even make sense.

 

And I'M the pretentious one here?? Riiiiight.

[Vito Corleone]

 

I agree to an extent. But I also think those extremes can operate together. Over at the Songwriting Forum, you've got guys that are signed to publishing deals alongside guys posting their first poem. the fact of the matter is, the noobs improve quickly. And the silverbacks get better by helping the noobs. It's a very cool, symbiotic cycle. I really use that as the benchmark. When a guy implies, "This is the way", it usually isn't the only way. It's his way. Hey, everybody should be themselves. But sometimes stepping off the pedestal of "rightness" allows everyone to learn even more . There is a sense of discovery instead of being force fed "the right way".

 

 

Who is rough on the noobs here? Not me. Not very often anyway. Certainly not anyone who has ever come in this forum being geniune and sincere about what they are doing. Who's harsh on the noobs? Grant? Jason? jeff42? It isn't the party band guys who are rough on the noobs, from what I've seen. If anyone is rough on the noobs it's the "serious musician" guys who give them a ration about needing to practice or work on their tone or whatever.

 

But if you can find some examples of what you're talking about....show 'em.

[Lee Knight]

So yeah...let me briefly recap my Saturday gig and how it went down and you can tell me about how much bull{censored} you think it all was. Because, for me, it was all about hard work, good fun, and feeling satisfied and rewarded: 8 AM: Time to start doing the final details before leaving the house: print up setlists, pack up my gear, pack my clothes in my car. Gotta pick up the drummer at 9:45 so we can be to the bass player's house by 10:30 to pack up the trailer... ______ ...So yeah...if all of that is bull{censored} to a lot of you guys, so be it. That's the kind of MUSIC-BASED entertainment we provide. I'm not going to tell anyone what they are doing is wrong. I can only offer suggestions on how to do certain aspects better if that's what anyone is interested in. If there's stuff you can take from what I do...great. If not...that's great too.

 

 

I'm not implying you don't work hard at this. Clearly you do. I've been there. I'm not saying none of that stuff doesn't need to be done either. Of course you need clothes, a setlist, a sandwich and a hum free PA. That is all hard work and you're clearly a hard worker.

 

It's the fixating on things and not moving on that waters down your message. It's the seemingly music-low-on-the-totom-pole way in which you approach at time... it that makes me wonder where your interest really is. I never questioned it before until I saw that thread title.

[Lee Knight]

Who is rough on the noobs here? Not me. Not very often anyway. Certainly not anyone who has ever come in this forum being geniune and sincere about what they are doing. Who's harsh on the noobs? Grant? Jason? jeff42? It isn't the party band guys who are rough on the noobs, from what I've seen. If anyone is rough on the noobs it's the "serious musician" guys who give them a ration about needing to practice or work on their tone or whatever. But if you can find some examples of what you're talking about....show 'em.

 

 

Dude, I wasn't talking about it, I was concurring with Rog that it's important to have both a pro level and beginner level forum. I'm not saying you or anyone is unkind to noobs. (I love the way noobs rhymes with boobs)

[tucktronix]

Well, you've already got what you want then, because that's pretty much what this forum is. The major contributors here number in the single digits - maybe low double digits at best. It's not just inexperienced folks getting "scared away," it's folks that have lots of gigging background that just don't feel like dealing with all the negative bull{censored}. I say this because I know a few of these people...I've been actively trying to recruit some for a while, in the interest of bringing in a little variety and a lot of knowledge. Seems like they may lurk for a while but, so far anyway, they end up not posting. And don't get me wrong - I'm not pushing for a "beginner's forum" by any stretch. I appreciate everyone's sincere contributions to this forum, and there are some very knowledgeable people playing in some very successful bands posting here. I just think there's a lot more close-minded harping and nit-picking than necessary and the vibe of the place kinda suffers because of it. I also realize this is the interwebz and some hostility is to be expected. So basically, I dunno what I'm saying!

 

Agree 100%...

 

These are some of the reasons why I don't post here as much anymore.

[Potts]

I would say that I'm basically a noob...I've only been here for a few months but it's a pretty "kind" place I guess. It would take a ton to offend me though.

[toddkuen]

Duplicated by a slow DB error... post below.

[Vito Corleone]

 

I'm not implying you don't work hard at this. Clearly you do. I've been there. I'm not saying none of that stuff doesn't need to be done either. Of course you need clothes, a setlist, a sandwich and a hum free PA. That is all hard work and you're clearly a hard worker. It's the fixating on things and not moving on that waters down your message. It's the seemingly music-low-on-the-totom-pole way in which you approach at time... it that makes me wonder where your interest really is. I never questioned it before until I saw that thread title.

 

 

I covered this and got slammed for it earlier, so maybe I can approach it different. Or get slammed for it again in a manner that makes sense to me.

 

I'm not trying to say we're "all that" musically or that there isn't obvious places we could improve. Who among us is THAT good? Certainly not me or my band. But we've been doing this a long time. Going on 10 years now for the core of the band. And yeah---we're just playing covers and most of them are pretty simple songs. I'm making no apologies for the song choice because all those songs are chosen for a reason: because they work towards delivering the "message" of our entire performance. Our "connection" to the audience. The song choice is just one part of that equation. So a lot of the practice stuff, and the playing stuff, and the getting-tight stuff we got out of the way awhile ago. Not that it's perfect---far from it. NO aspect of our show is perfect. But it's pretty good. And at some point you DO just have to do the gig and get on stage and play the {censored}ing song.

 

So at some point....yeah...the way I play "Poker Face" IS "good enough". Let's move on to the next song, or get the lights set up or whatever. With the sort of gigs we do, a lot of the playing of songs is the easy part. It's certainly the most fun part. But, to be perfectly honest, we've played "You Shook Me All Night Long" a few hundred times now. Except for the new songs we've added or the one offs, the songs are the part of the show that was the same last week and will be the same next week. But all that setup and logistics and dealing with people stuff? THAT changes from gig-to-gig. So it DOES require a certain amount of attention. If we were a house band set up somewhere or playing in the same venue we played a month ago for largely the same people and the same clubowner, the list of priorities would be different, for sure.

 

So no. The music is NOT low on the totem pole, but it IS largely confined to the 3 hours we're on stage. And whatever rehearsal time we can squeeze in during the week. And whatever other stuff we can throw in. (The car on the long drives is a great place to discuss arrangements, making changes, and working on harmonies.)

 

And as far as the positions I take on this forum? Yeah, I leave a lot of the "focus on the music" posts to those more concerned with that stuff. Besides, a lot of that is hard to discuss. "How can I tighten up with my bass player?" "How can we find a cooler intro to play on this song"? It's hard to discuss stuff like that in a forum. It gets very personal and subjective. But business stuff/gigging details? There's a lot more "good general advice" stuff that can be applied to those questions and situations.

 

So my concern is ways to help bands market themselves and take themselves to the next level once they've got the musical basics pretty well in hand. Which is as it should be, because I DO do that stuff pretty well. And truely believe I have good advice to give and good experiences for others to draw from.

 

If you're so uninterested in any "show" aspects that you want just wear what you want/do what you want and make it all about the music. Great. What I post doesn't apply to you.

 

If you have another path to success the involves only focusing on the musical aspects of a performance, then maybe you could help out here and provide some actual examples of how to do this and tell us about how well that has worked for you and show us your results, because I know for a fact there are many guys who would like to know how to do that. But instead of offering alternative paths, all I really get from you is complaints about how my suggestions are bull{censored}.

 

Again. Results speak for themselves. And my results are the results I want to get. I targeted my goals, drew up a path and did it. It's not what everyone would want, obviously. We all have different goals.

 

But, honestly, truthfully? As superficial as it may sound? I think there are a LOT of guys here who would like to play in a band that works 30-35 times a years, never leaves the house for less than $3K and plays for very happy, enthusiastic audiences. For those that do, my stories offer one path to do so.

 

If you have another path to achieve similar goals, let's hear 'em.

 

But honestly? Broad dismissals of my path or my goals or my success in reaching them doesn't fly. It actually starts to smack of jealousy at some point. A lot of these posts start to take a "Well, what YOU do sucks anyway, so who cares if you're any good at it or not..." and that's just arms-crossed-in-the-back-room-looking-down-your-nose-at-the-band-who-is-actually-gigging bull{censored} I've been watching other "better" musicians do for decades.

 

Seriously? {censored} all that. I don't have time for that bull{censored}. I've got gigs to play and work to do. Listening to non/barely gigging guys tell me my gigs or how I play them is bull{censored}? C'mon. What is this? 5th grade?

 

Do your job. Do what you're hired to do. If you're going to be a gigging, working musician, be a PROFESSIONAL one and entertain the people. Putting down others who are successful at that? Really? That's what you're all about Lee? C'mon. I know you're better than that.

[Lee Knight]

You think my band sucks? That's cool.

 

 

 

No, I don't think your band sucks. And I think your videographer captured things just fine. I've heard you. Your air of "this-is-how-it's-done" does not coincide with the level of band I'm hearing. I would never say that to anybody. But somehow you've managed to wrestle it out of me. You could stand to improve from what I hear. Bottomline, that's what I hear. And the improvement would be in the passion and soul department. Not the song choice.

 

You're willingly standing on that pedestal of yours, it's kind of hard not to take aim at you with that attitude of yours.

 

So really, how about you learn a little too. And so will I.

[toddkuen]

From the noob perspective "how you say it" matters as much as what you say - 400 posts about the business aspects of not dressing right in response to some guy wanting to wear cargo shorts at a gig on a hot day sends a message as clear as the content of the posts.

From my experience dressing right is always a top priority; until someone passes out.

I don't want a noob forum and most things are best learned by experience anyway. For example:

In general as the larger the number of members (band or employee or whatever) increases the BS factor exponentially (including ex-wives, kids, post show meetings, you name it) and decreases the lifespan expectation for the group (more members = shorter band life time).

Four hundred posts by me on this are not required. Do music or any other business long enough and you will learn you can't escape "the odds" - only put them off for a while if you're lucky.

Experience teaches far more effectively than a verbal beating.

All you can do is point out there's a rake in the yard - until someone steps on they'll never believe you.

[Vito Corleone]

No, I don't think your band sucks. And I think your videographer captured things just fine. I've heard you. Your air of "this-is-how-it's-done" does not coincide with the level of band I'm hearing. I would never say that to anybody. But somehow you've managed to wrestle it out of me. You could stand to improve from what I hear. Bottomline, that's what I hear. And the improvement would be in the passion and soul department. Not the song choice. You're willingly standing on that pedestal of yours, it's kind of hard not to take aim at you with that attitude of yours. So really, how about you learn a little too. And so will I.

 

 

Agreed. We can all learn. And I won't disagree with you that there are things we could stand to improve upon. That's obviously true.

 

But I have to take issue with this "level of band" stuff? What "level" do you think we are on or claim to be on and how does that differ? You say we're lacking passion and soul. OK. Let's say that's true. So what would be gained by having more passion and soul? If the band is all perfectly happy with the results we're getting: we like the music we play, we like the way we play it, we're getting our rocks off performing, we like the gigs we play, the crowds we play for, the response we get from the crowd and the amount of money we're making.....what is "more passion and soul" going to give us?

 

How should we measure "passion and soul" anyway? How Lee Knight percieves it? Or how the musicians in the band and our audiences see it?

 

All those things I listed---aren't those pretty much the goals every cover band has? And again, I'm not arguing with you that we couldn't use some more passion and soul. I'm sure we could. We could use more of EVERYTHING, no doubt. What band couldn't use a lot more of a lot of things?

 

But if we're not complaining, then what's to fix? I mean, if I came on this forum saying "look guys, I love a lot of what we do, but I'm just not feeling that musically fulfilled at the end of the night..." then pointing out we lack passion and soul and offering suggestions on how to get more of that would be valid. But if I'm not feeling a lacking in that area, and don't get any sense that my audiences are....then you're not offering assistance, you're just getting in some digs.

 

Again. I'm not telling the guys who wear shorts and are really successful and happy with their bands and their shows to put on a decent pair of pants. It's the guys who are unfulfilled and are looking for better results who get that advice. Usually anyway.