It's settled: Do what you want. It's all good.

[3shiftgtr]

 

I would say that music is the biggest tree in the forest, but without the rest of the trees it's not really a forest at all.

 

 

So I'm reading thru this metaphor....you are saying that without the show, the music doesn't really matter?

[Vermoulian]

To David's original point: I think a big reason that it's so tough to get people to acknowledge that there are better and worse ways to do things, be it stage wear, the presence or absence of music stands, showmanship vs. virtuosity, etc., is what Eugene Chadbourne, in his book I Hate the Man Who Runs This Bar, called the "No Consistency Rule".

 

The way the No Consistency Rule works is this: in the world of performing and recording music, there is an exception to EVERYTHING. Pick just about any example of a route to success you can think of, and no matter how good it looks, without doubt there is somebody out there who achieved equal or greater success by doing things completely differently. Study diligently how to put on a great show, make a great recording, what equipment to use, how to use it, etc., and once you know (you think) what you need, some clown will point to a rabidly popular live act or a better record made using the "wrong" equipment and the "wrong" methods. No matter what you may want to do, somebody has failed at it using the "best" methods, and somebody has succeeded wildly using "bad" methods. There is NO CONSISTENCY. No one way/approach/piece of gear/strategy works for everybody, and what works for others may not work for you, and what works for you may not work for them.

 

This phenomenon, coupled with a lack of really good statistical data about the music business, especially at its lower levels where most of us toil, has several effects. Most obviously, it fuels pages and pages of internet maunderings in which zealots argue about the right way to [whatever]. It also can facilitate laziness on the part of musicians, because whenever the most likely path to success presents annoying and tedious work, they can cite somebody who achieved success by some other path, which does not require said annoying tedious work. E.g.: "Why should we pay for recording and play gigs? [Joe Schmoe] recorded his album on Garage Band in his bedroom and just posted it on his MySpace site and he became a big star." This type of reasoning tends to ignore the myriad substantive differences between the speaker and Joe Schmoe, first of all, but also ignores the numbers game aspect of things. The existence of one person who got successful through approach X means only that approach X worked for ONE PERSON. Could it also work for you? Not impossible. But is it likely? Probably not. Is following that approach the most productive use of your time and energy? Again, probably not.

 

Again, in music, there will always be somebody who did things a different way and succeeded. There will always be somebody who did everything the "right" way and failed.

 

There's lots of luck involved in doing well in music---even if you're not trying to become a pop star, which is very much about being in the right place at the right time, luck will still affect you: did you just happen to post an ad for a bass player at the very time that a great bass player found himself between bands? Did you just happen to call the booking guy from a top club right after somebody canceled on him? So the best thing you can do is get all your ducks in a row and be ready so that if/when opportunity knocks, you can open the door and invite it in. So when you're trying to figure out what to do, don't ask, "What did my favorite performer/band do?" It is entirely possible that whatever worked for your favorite performer/band would only work for him/her/them---that they are the only people in a billion who could have done it that way. Rather, figure out what course is the most likely to position you for success. It may not be as exciting and it may require more work, but the only thing worse than never getting a break is getting the break but not being able to follow through on it.

[Vito Corleone]

 

He was talking about becoming a better musician over all. He used specifics to defend himself. For all this hoo haa about doing your best etc., Wade's point about the music rings true. You can work real hard at no music stands, matching suits, nice lighting, good p.a., etc, but if you are using 100% of your musical knowledge and ability to eek thru the exhilarating progressions in "Another Brick In The Wall", then you ARE missing the forest for the trees.

 

 

No. The point here is that any musician who needs to be focused on the progressions of "Another Brick In The Wall" or needs to understand theory in order to play it well has a lot more to work on before they should even consider being in a real band.

 

That's the basic, taken for granted stuff. I've got many, many more things that need to occupy my brain and my time than understanding the theory behind such simplistic material that can be played just off the top of one's head.

[Vito Corleone]

 

So I'm reading thru this metaphor....you are saying that without the show, the music doesn't really matter?

 

 

He's saying it's all part of the forest. The end product is your forest. The music is but one tree in the forest. It ALL matters. THAT'S the point.

 

Again, it's all this discussion about what does and does not 'matter' than is so frustrating. It ALL matters. If you're looking for reasons to declare certain things don't matter then you're only cutting off your nose spite your face. If your show isn't up to snuff, then the solution is to make your show BETTER, not to stand there with your arms crossed declaring it doesn't matter.

[FitchFY]

To David's original point: I think a big reason that it's so tough to get people to acknowledge that there are better and worse ways to do things, be it stage wear, the presence or absence of music stands, showmanship vs. virtuosity, etc., is what Eugene Chadbourne, in his book I Hate the Man Who Runs This Bar , called the "No Consistency Rule".

 

Your post was great.

[BATCAT]

Stop right now, folks, and read Vermoulian's post.

 

Twice.

[Vito Corleone]

 

recorded his album on Garage Band in his bedroom and just posted it on his MySpace site and he became a big star." This type of reasoning tends to ignore the myriad substantive differences between the speaker and Joe Schmoe, first of all, but also ignores the numbers game aspect of things. The existence of one person who got successful through approach X means only that approach X worked for ONE PERSON. Could it also work for you? Not impossible. But is it likely? Probably not. Is following that approach the most productive use of your time and energy? Again, probably not. Again, in music, there will always be somebody who did things a different way and succeeded. There will always be somebody who did everything the "right" way and failed. There's lots of luck involved in doing well in music---even if you're not trying to become a pop star, which is very much about being in the right place at the right time, luck will still affect you: did you just happen to post an ad for a bass player at the very time that a great bass player found himself between bands? Did you just happen to call the booking guy from a top club right after somebody canceled on him? So the best thing you can do is get all your ducks in a row and be ready so that if/when opportunity knocks, you can open the door and invite it in. So when you're trying to figure out what to do, don't ask, "What did my favorite performer/band do?" It is entirely possible that whatever worked for your favorite performer/band would only work for him/her/them---that they are the only people in a billion who could have done it that way. Rather, figure out what course is the most likely to position you for success. It may not be as exciting and it may require more work, but the only thing worse than never getting a break is getting the break but not being able to follow through on it.

 

 

Very well put. This should be required reading for everyone here.

 

One line that stood out is one I quote often: be ready so that if/when opportunity knocks, you can open the door and invite it in

 

The old adage is "luck is where preparation and opportunity meet". Too often those who fail in life are those who are constantly playing "catch up". You're not going to get a gig with a good band if you're waiting for them to call you before you start practicing. You're not going to find good players to be in your band if you don't already have your ducks in a row and your game plan up and running. You're not going to get that date with that hot chick if you wait until she says 'yes' before you decide to take a shower.

 

Work to be on TOP of your game and you'll be ready for anything.

[SLScott86]

 

He's saying it's all part of the forest. The end product is your forest. The music is but one tree in the forest. It ALL matters. THAT'S the point. Again, it's all this discussion about what does and does not 'matter' than is so frustrating. It ALL matters. If you're looking for reasons to declare certain things don't matter then you're only cutting off your nose spite your face. If your show isn't up to snuff, then the solution is to make your show BETTER, not to stand there with your arms crossed declaring it doesn't matter.

 

 

That is correct. And the weaknesses are the best bang for the buck areas to work on. Spend two minutes a gig putting on some better clothes or spend two hours tweaking a song to make the slightest improvement when you're already good. It's all part of the package.

 

Don't get me wrong. The music MUST be there first. All a light show or bells and whistles will do is draw attention to the fact that you are bad. But if the music is good, a little mind to the presentation will go a long way.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Don't get me wrong. The music MUST be there first. All a light show or bells and whistles will do is draw attention to the fact that you are bad.

 

 

Absolutely. It (should) go without saying that a relatively high-standard of musicianship is at the core of any good band.

 

Maybe that's the disconnect here? Bands/musicians are all at different levels and everyone is coming from their own perspective. I suppose it doesn't make a lot of sense to be discussing "the whole package" with people who are still trying to learn their instrument well enough so as to be able to play "Brick In The Wall" correctly.....

[wades_keys]

What is correctly? Note for note rote? Or is there something else?

 

See: heres the thing. Most local bands don't impress me musically. Rote. Tablature.

 

Always Playing the same positions, same licks. I want that intangible "it" that the greats have. Phrasing. Touch. Taste. Confidence to play that c# up On the 9th fret if I want or back down on the 4th.

 

Most players could stand to get better. What is your musical weakness? Why not work on that instead of sweating the bull{censored}?

 

You that sat you're already there? I don't believe you. Get better.

 

And I'm sorry dude but missing a change consistently is a mistake. A clam. I don't care what the reasons are: tolerating that is the road to lameness. Do I make mistakes? Sure. Do I tolerate them? Hell no

 

The bottom line is most of us playing covers ain't all there musically. I hear weak vibrato, inconsistent attack, muffed notes, poor phrasing and lack of attention to dynamics. I hear mushy overdone sub bass, over compressed kick drum, muddy boomy bass guitar, and poor mic technique.

 

All of this leads to the impression of a poor facsimile of the original artists version.

[kmart]

 

Stop right now, folks, and read Vermoulian's post. Twice.

 

 

I wouldn't recommend doing so; he's a lawyer and charges hourly.

[Vito Corleone]

 

. What is your musical weakness? Why not work on that instead of sweating the bull{censored}?

 

 

Who decides what is or is not "bull{censored}"? You? That's my point. You can either see the whole forest or pretend half the trees don't exist. The choice is yours. Pretending things that matter don't doesn't get you any closer to a complete, finished product.

 

In my view, the "bull{censored}" when playing a song as ridiculously simple as ABITW is wasting even one second worry about whether that first chord is a "i" chord or a "ii" chord. Just play the damned song.

[mstreck]

You say to do what I want, and I thought I wanted to go work on some music... but now I feel the need to read through the four other pages of postings in this thread. Well played, Mr. Destiny... well played.

[SLScott86]

 

Who decides what is or is not "bull{censored}"? You? That's my point. You can either see the whole forest or pretend half the trees don't exist. The choice is yours. Pretending things that matter don't doesn't get you any closer to a complete, finished product. In my view, the "bull{censored}" when playing a song as ridiculously simple as ABITW is wasting even one second worry about whether that first chord is a "i" chord or a "ii" chord. Just play the damned song.

 

 

At the risk of being too much of a Tommy Timmons, I'd say that what the audience considers to be bull{censored} is rarely the same as what a musician considers to be bull{censored}.

 

There was a band that came to town who my roommate raved about. "The singer has so much stage presence." I saw them and thought they were mediocre musicians playing generic music and posturing who took themselves too seriously. But they're making money and I'm not. There's a reason for that.

[caeman]

 

You say to do what I want, and I thought I wanted to go work on some music... but now I feel the need to read through the four other pages of postings in this thread. Well played, Mr. Destiny... well played.

 

 

I'm working music right now, actually. Though I cannot practice on my bodhran or bass, I can freely play Pandora all day long. Excellent vocal practice.

[SLScott86]

 

I'm working music right now, actually. Though I cannot practice on my bodhran or bass, I can freely play Pandora all day long. Excellent vocal practice.

 

 

My carpool has taken away massive amounts of practice time.

[caeman]

I have a one hour commute. By myself. And I want to keep it that way. I hate have to make small talk.

[MusicalSchizo]

My thought process was this: the guy is frigging RELENTLESS at explaining himself. Even if I was 100% certain I was correct on a particular subject, I'd have no desire to argue with him because I know damn well he will still be here typing paragraph upon paragraph while I'm blissfully asnooze! So, even when he's wrong, you can't win because he'll beat you with verbosity. Who's got that kinda time?

 

I do, and I do the same thing, so maybe that's why I like him so much (even when I don't always agree). Birds of a feather and {censored}...

Brian V.

[wades_keys]

 

Who decides what is or is not "bull{censored}"? You? That's my point. You can either see the whole forest or pretend half the trees don't exist. The choice is yours. Pretending things that matter don't doesn't get you any closer to a complete, finished product. In my view, the "bull{censored}" when playing a song as ridiculously simple as ABITW is wasting even one second worry about whether that first chord is a "i" chord or a "ii" chord. Just play the damned song.

 

Hmmm...

 

This just SCREAMS jaded complacency. I'm sorry you can't get excited about nuance. If you haven't gotten it by now you probably never will.

 

So I guess like you said, you should just play the damn song. I'm not going to apologize to you or anyone else for loving music the way I do.

 

It's like this man. The one thing I and you can control with no comPlications is the effort we put forth in our practice. Finished product you say? Yet you debate all manner of things excepting performance! Its not the band silly,it's YOU. It's us. We should practice more, challenge ourselves. Be our own critics. Bull{censored} is my opinion of where I should be, not comparing my band to other bands. That's jive ass. If your great ready, why not be exceptional? {censored} the audience. No other artist tolerates this mentality but musicians: give them what they want? Bull{censored} play from your heart Con moto. One more time. With feeling as Chet would say.

[modulusman]

 

Hmmm... This just SCREAMS jaded complacency. I'm sorry you can't get excited about nuance. If you haven't gotten it by now you probably never will. So I guess like you said, you should just play the damn song. I'm not going to apologize to you or anyone else for loving music the way I do. It's like this man. The one thing I and you can control with no comPlications is the effort we put forth in our practice. Finished product you say? Yet you debate all manner of things excepting performance! Its not the band silly,it's YOU. It's us. We should practice more, challenge ourselves. Be our own critics. Bull{censored} is my opinion of where I should be, not comparing my band to other bands. That's jive ass. If your great ready, why not be exceptional? {censored} the audience. No other artist tolerates this mentality but musicians: give them what they want? Bull{censored} play from your heart Con moto. One more time. With feeling as Chet would say.

 

 

Wade I just tried to send you a PM. Don't know if it went through.

[SLScott86]

 

Hmmm... This just SCREAMS jaded complacency. I'm sorry you can't get excited about nuance. If you haven't gotten it by now you probably never will. So I guess like you said, you should just play the damn song. I'm not going to apologize to you or anyone else for loving music the way I do.

 

 

It's not that there's anything wrong with working to get better. Most of us should put in more work there. It's that there is such a thing as diminishing returns. The time it takes to get one song flawless or so automatic that there are no screwups ever is time that could be spent keeping the setlist fresh, or writing new material, or buying some pants, or improving any other place where a band is lacking. Going from bad to good is a much much easier process than going from good to great. In just about anything.

[3shiftgtr]

A long time ago there was this guy...a decent little bassist who has long since left Nashville. I was playing a country gig at a 'show club' with an artist and he was a sub.

 

So we are backstage between sets, and on the t.v. is Garth Brooks doing a duet with Trisha Yearwood on the tonight show. Playing bass is Keith Horne. For those of you who don't know, Keith is a monster bassist and a member of the "Virginia 3" - Victor Wooten, Otiel Burbridge and Keith - (they all came to Nash from Virginia at the same time). As an example of his skill, I saw him and Victor do an improvised tapping duet of Giant Steps (back in the old Dave Pomeroy "bass addict" shows) that was purely stunning on every level.

 

He looks at Keith and says "See. Look at that. What good is all that bull{censored} wheedly music school bull{censored}? He's on the Tonight Show playing two notes to the bar. I can do that. I auditioned for that gig. Why don't I have the gig?"

 

He went on to basically say that the music is only one small part of "what gets sold" (I remember him using that phrase a bunch) and that he knows the business and performance side of things better than Keith {censored}ing Horne. "Keith must have known somebody, because I GAURANTEE you it wasn't just his bass playing."

 

Is he right? Musically, did Keith deserve that gig over him?

 

According to many here....apparently not. Apparently it is all relative. Your music is no more important than the music stand, or the lights, or the promo kit, or the strings on your guitar. It's all matters the same.

 

I disagree. If you put the lighting in equally relative proportion to the power of the music, then you are missing the point. Who gives a {censored}, just play the damned song, right?

 

Wrong. On every level. Just cuz you can 'play the dammned song" doesn't mean your doing it to the best of your ability.

 

Keith is an acquaintance. He got the gig cuz he won the audition. He got the audition cuz he played a pick up gig with the drummer who referred him. He won the audition because of his power as a player. The force and passion behind each note came from from the fact that has worked his ass off on music....far beyond the ablity to play a 2 note to the bar country bass line well. His ability to improvise a Giant Steps tapping duet with Victor allows him to put something behind the notes that my sub couldn't.

 

RELATIVELY SPEAKING, if anyone thinks that the 5 hours one spends dealing with the lighting, and wardrobe is just as important as 5 hours spent getting better as a musician, you'd be wrong. You spend the time on lighting and wardrobe IN ADDITION to your primary job.

 

Which would be what RELATIVELY SPEAKING?

[nchangin]

Log off everyone! NOW haha

[SpaceNorman]

 

Who decides what is or is not "bull{censored}"? You? That's my point. You can either see the whole forest or pretend half the trees don't exist. The choice is yours. Pretending things that matter don't doesn't get you any closer to a complete, finished product.....

 

 

I understand and agree with your point 100% - yet, by the same token I believe that you have to at least acknowledge that the same question can be asked of you. You're absolutely right that pretending things that matter don't doesn't get you any closer to a complete, finished product. On the flip side - I believe it's impossible to argue that pretending things that don't matter do - won't get you any closer either. In the end each of us has to decide what is and is not "bull{censored}" for ourselves - and then be prepared to live with the outcome of our decisions.

 

I certainly don't consider the presence of shorts and/or music stands on stage to be the litmus test for professionalism that some seem to. Neither do I feel that it's important to be right about whether that first chord is a "i" or a "ii". That's why I dress for the gig I'm playing (which means might see me in a tux one night and in shorts, sandals and a tacky hawaiian shirt the next). It's why I have no problems with the presence of music stands (provided whoever's using it doesn't stand there with their nose buried in it). It's why seeing a band all play the same first chord - knowing that they did not waste time and energy on endless debate to choose that first chord - is far more important to me than being right about what that first chord should be.

 

I believe it's important that we all be aware that virtually every facet of the show is a decision point - and that the forum discussion can help each of us better understand the potential ups and downs associated with each decision we face. I outright reject however any assertion that there's one and only one "right" decision anywhere along the path.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Yet you debate all manner of things excepting performance!

 

 

Because this forum doesn't need me for that. It's already filled with musicians who don't see the forest of being a complete band because they are stuck in their tree of musicianship. I've said countless times that musicianship is important. So much so that it really shouldn't be mentioned. Like not using a music stand, it should be something that's so basic to a good performance that if we're still discussing it at our age and at this place and time, then we've probably got much bigger problems than we realize. I worried about the nuances of ABITW when I first played that song in a cover band when I was 18 in 1979. At age 50, in 2012---frankly, it isn't that big of a challenge. Are there nuances I could focus on that would make me personally play the song better? I'm sure there are. But in the big picture of the entire FOREST--you have to prioritize.

 

IIRC, you aren't even playing in a band right now, are you? So I suppose you've got time to do things like pull out your theory books and wonder about how you can apply to knowledge to playing 3-chord 4/4 blues-based rock tunes. I suppose your 'forest' as you sit here today is working on being the best fantabulous bass player you can be. If so, that's cool but also keep in mind your long-term goals here--if you have any. What are you going to do with all that fantastic knowledge? Move to Nashville and become one those read-anything/play-anything cats? Right on. All that sort of knowledge would help with that. Use to be the best bass player you can be in some 2nd rate band of weekend warriors playing what you've consistantly described as a non-existant/non-paying music scene in Louisville? In that case, maybe what you're doing is a bit overkill and your time and effort would best be focused elsewhere.

 

Forest vs. trees.

 

Here's MY personal forest as of 10 AM on July 25th:

 

1) I've got a wedding coming up on Saturday that's about a 4-hour drive away. In addition to dealing with the logistics of travel and lodging (most of which have already been attended to) I've got an event that is requiring 4 different sound sets ups for various configurations of live and recorded music in 4 different locations. I've got to make sure I've got all the details for equipment and program attended to. It's 4 hours away. There's no running back home for an extra cable or powered speaker.

 

2) We've got 3 'special request' songs we have to learn. And no time for the band to get together and rehearse them. So I've got to come up with arrangements that can be conveyed to everyone without rehearsing that we can throw together on the spot. It's unclear whether we'll be able to even do a sound check let alone run over the songs other than maybe getting everyone together with an acoustic guitar during some down time to run over arrangement and harmonies.

 

3) I'm working in a new guitar processor to my setup. Need to make sure my patches are dialed.

 

4) My soundman expressed concern that I was sending him inconsistant levels between various keyboard patches. I need to go back through and make sure my levels are set better.

 

5) A couple of weeks ago, we drive off for a gig with the backdoor to the SUV open. The projector falls out and the softcase we stored it in was run over. Projector doesn't work. Nearest repair shop is 150 miles away. I'm hoping to hear back today what the damage is and if they can repair it before this weekend. Otherwise I've got to look into renting one or buying another one before Saturday.

 

And that's just my band stuff concerning the next show. I've also got 5 appraisals I need to complete by Saturday and, since it's Wednesday, that means my wife is working today so it's my day to drop the kid off/pick her up from day care and make dinner for all of us tonight.

 

SOMEWHERE in all of that I MIGHT have time to worry about the music theory behind Another Brick In The Wall. But I doubt it. Of course, I could always backburner one of those other things so I have more time for studying theory. But I don't really see how doing so would get me closer to managing my forest in the best possible manner.