It's settled: Do what you want. It's all good.

[wades_keys]

I've played with drummers that don't groove as it were. Not much I could do about it except get a better sense of where the beat should be and then try and work around that.

 

So yeah: again I think that are things the other band members can do to alleviate or work with what is going on. Guy had a very Stewart Copand feel and chops to match: I've posted some of that on here before. Remember I got called out on account of the guitarist not playing the message in a bottle part "correctly". Lol.

[wades_keys]

You don't get it David. I actually wrote the

[Vito Corleone]

 

I've played with drummers that don't groove as it were. Not much I could do about it except get a better sense of where the beat should be and then try and work around that. So yeah: again I think that are things the other band members can do to alleviate or work with what is going on. Guy had a very Stewart Copand feel and chops to match: I've posted some of that on here before. Remember I got called out on account of the guitarist not playing the message in a bottle part "correctly". Lol.

 

 

Yeah. Don't remember if I was one of those who called your guitar player out or not, but I was more concerned that your singer wasn't really very good, IMO. But learning a riff differently (and you seemed like a band who liked to do things close to the record....I remember you many times talking about nailing some little lick or groove as it was played on the original more than once) is something that's easy to suggest to somebody online. Saying your singer isn't very good....what the hell are you going to do about that? Fire the guy? He's one of the dudes in your band. You gotta work with what you got. And he, of course, didn't SUCK.

 

All you can do with guys who don't groove is practice more as a band or gig more. Or replace them. I could show my bass player that descending 9 note scale to set up a ii, V, I, but I don't know that we even HAVE a song with ii, V, I in it and if we do, if that riff would work without screwing up whatever song that might be, ya know? Cool stuff that learning will, of course, improve any player's knowledge and skill but is so Six Degrees of Separation from anything going on right now that it hard to see that's gonna make him play Billie Jean better next Saturday, ya know?

[wades_keys]

Bottom line David and I'll leave it: I've already made an impression here with my musicianship. It's paying off. I've got three offers on the table right now with solid gigging bands in spite of my personal problems.

Count on me being back on the horse very soon. On keys and bass. Wouldn't be able to say that if I was just average or learned slowly. Nah dude: I've got hired gun skills right now and that's been proven several times. Just ask black MUDD: one rehearsal and I hit the stage for four hours and definitely was an improvent over their last guy. Heard that from several neutral listeners.

Or ask axis band: I got up cold on that stage and played a whole set of tunes I'd never e en heard before. Went on there again 2 weeks ago and they callede up for another set before I could even order a beer. And this is a really good band...bragging ain't what I'm doing. Playing by numbers and intervals is what I'm doing and I swear: I havent played a song based off a pick in years! Feels good man, ya know?

So yeah: all that stuff makes a difference if you're thinking and training the ear and not just flapping fingers around the neck.

When I get back to gigging I promise you I'll find a way to put that whole tone scale into a V I. It'll probably be on an outdo but still....Hell I managed to put a billy Sheehan inspired pedal tone riff in a song ending with throttle years back. I still laugh every time I hear it.

[rog951]

This thread needs more Pinkerton:

 

[video=youtube;sHKG-I28jI0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHKG-I28jI0

[Vito Corleone]

You don't get it David. I actually wrote the

[Vito Corleone]

Bottom line David and I'll leave it: I've already made an impression here with my musicianship. It's paying off. I've got three offers on the table right now with solid gigging bands in spite of my personal problems. Count on me being back on the horse very soon. On keys and bass. Wouldn't be able to say that if I was just average or learned slowly. Nah dude: I've got hired gun skills right now and that's been proven several times. Just ask black MUDD: one rehearsal and I hit the stage for four hours and definitely was an improvent over their last guy. Heard that from several neutral listeners.

 

Excellent. Onwards and upwards!

[wades_keys]

Yeah David the vocals were and still are the weak point in that band. You're dead right on that account, and yeah: not much I could do.

Hell they still gig real regularly: about 8 times a month or so; not bad for guys with full time jobs. They turn down gigs.

But what I did was work real close with the drummer to build a rhythm section. We got a lot of compliments based on that. Drummer was the star and I supported him whenever I could.

They got a real solid bass Player now and in fact I'll probably be working with those two guys in a project band very soon; but it's not the same. So: I think that fits the topic of What can I do to make the band better?

[wades_keys]

 

Cool. Then let's see the result, man. Show me how much better your band became after you applied all that theoretial knowledge to the stage and how it resulted in you connecting to the audience better or getting better gigs or achieving whatever goals it might have been that you had for that band. I think most cats here want their bands to improve and move up the ladder. More gigs. Better crowds. Better money. That seems to me to be among the most primary concerns in this band forum. Not sitting around discussing theory and all the different bands/players they won't work with because they are so much better than.

 

Come out to eezys open mic and see for yourself. Best I can do other than show some still photos my mother took.

[wades_keys]

Well if they want their band to move up the ladder they probably need to up the chops. Really. Around here, the top bands are known for musicianship. That tends to happen when you strip away all the trappings and have to play on gazebos, deck bars and the corner in some bar.

 

That dude on here, consume. Remember him? His singer got on stage with Geoff Tate at a queens ruche show and tore it up. THATs the ladder. The rest of it is {censored}ing bull{censored} smoke and mirrors.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Yeah David the vocals were and still are the weak point in that band. You're dead right on that account, and yeah: not much I could do. Hell they still gig real regularly: about 8 times a month or so; not bad for guys with full time jobs. They turn down gigs.

 

 

No, the band wasn't bad. Far from it. Just lacked that "next level" quality that they'll have a hard time reaching without a better singer. But if they're doing the gigs they want and plenty of 'em, then that's all good.

[Vito Corleone]

Well if they want their band to move up the ladder they probably need to up the chops.

 

Depends on the band and the situation. That's why all that "practice, man, practice" stuff gets so sketchy to start getting on guys about. I know guys with some of the best chops in the world and their bands don't do {censored} because they don't have all the other aspects of being a band together. And other bands that are pretty much crap that are doing really, really well. We all do. So this "it's all about the music" stuff is bull{censored}. Virtually NOBODY gets there with just that, and many, many get there without it.

 

And older guys---like many of us here---are pretty much the players and singers they are going to be. I guess SOME guys suddenly start really getting good after they turn 40 and hit the woodshed, but most don't. And very few in a way that is significantly going to improve the success their bands have. And then you've got the reality that in a forum like this, most guys are already IN bands. They've got the players they've got. So trying to impress on them that "the best way to reach success is to have a really hot {censored} rhythm section..." doesn't make a lot of sense. They don't have that really hot {censored} rhythm section. They've got Bill and Charlie who they used to play with 20 years ago in another band who are decent players and good guys with some decent gear and some extra time now that the kids are out of the house.

 

This idea that you're going to hand out etudes and turn common players into the rhythm section for Tower of Power and that THAT'S going to be what takes their band to the the next level? Hmmm...nah, I'm just not seeing that.

 

Again. Most guys just want to get to the next gig and hopefully book it for a little more money than last time. That's mostly what this forum is about.

 

That dude on here, consume. Remember him? His singer got on stage with Geoff Tate at a queens ruche show and tore it up. THATs the ladder.

 

So what did he do with that? Did he get a gig with the band like Mark Wahlberg in "Rock Star"?

 

The rest of it is {censored}ing bull{censored} smoke and mirrors.

 

[wades_keys]

Okay.

 

Actually that whole tone move is 12 notes across 4 strings. Easiest to do three whole tones per string and drop the pattern back a half step and shift to the next lowest string. It'll end on the ii if you start at the root.

 

Hey: you asked how to stop the same old mistakes? Get em to play a challenging song or three. Then psychology will kick in and you won't make the jive mistakes on simple {censored} anymore. Try it. Comfort zones breed mistakes.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Hey: you asked how to stop the same old mistakes? Get em to play a challenging song or three. Then psychology will kick in and you won't make the jive mistakes on simple {censored} anymore. Try it. Comfort zones breed mistakes.

 

 

You're right about comfort zone breeds mistakes. It's really just lack of concentration issues. The biggest problem we have is it seems that if we don't play a song at least once a week, it goes bye-bye. Probably part of getting older too. But we have a pretty big songlist and if there is something on this week's setlist that we haven't played for a few weeks---especially if it's an easy song---not everyone will brush up on it thinking "oh, I know THAT one", and voila! they really don't.

 

But we do plenty of challenging songs. One of the fun deals with this band is the variety of styles we play and having to pull off so much stuff virtually unrehearsed (at least as a band.) People request the damnest stuff. And I've got to learn a bunch of traditional classical pieces to play during a wedding ceremony this week. So we're always on our toes with that sort of stuff.

 

And yeah....the bass player would do much better with the concentration thing if he would just stop staring at all the boobies so much.....

[Alan Roberts]

And yeah....the bass player would do much better with the concentration thing if he would just stop staring at all the boobies so much.....

Sounds like he's focused to me.

[Lee Knight]

Here's some other points towards the being critical about musicianship stuff: First of all, I don't think I've ever really done that with anyone. What would be the point?

 

 

I don't care if you've never done it. I just did. You've done plenty. You've been going off in a holier then thou manner for too long I wanted to put you in your place, David. It's that simple. You disagree? I don't care.

 

I'm so tired of you trying to convince everyone of how good you are. How smart your band is. I've listened for years. I've had it. You are clearly not as good as you think you are. That's not something I've ever said to anyone. You've EARNED that distinction.

 

Frankly, I did what you're doing 30 years ago and I did it right. Without the Mammy face. Again, nothing I would normally say to anyone but you get to be the first and last.

 

Now you want me to put in words where you're lacking? No. You like everything in a pragmatic manner. Anything visceral seems foreign to you. That's what I'm pointing out. You're telling everyone how it should be done. Over and over and over. Then I take the time to check out your stuff and I think, W T F? Step 1, take up the... When I talk about the music driving things instead of a Mammy face, you can't make the connection as to how that manifests itself from thought to action? Really? Well, I see why now.

 

Potts asked why is everyone so angry? I'm not angry. I'm smiling as I type. My patience is gone but my sense of humor is fully intact. I have no issue with going away forever and I understand this is probably where my actions are leading, I just thought a little honesty before I go would be a good thing.

[rog951]

LEE - PLEASE DO NOT GO! EVER! PRETTY PLEASE!!!

 

Sorry for the "all caps" there, but I was screaming.

[flemtone]

I don't care if you've never done it. I just did. You've done plenty. You've been going off in a holier then thou manner for too long I wanted to put you in your place, David. It's that simple. You disagree? I don't care. I'm so tired of you trying to convince everyone of how good you are. How smart your band is. I've listened for years. I've had it. You are clearly not as good as you think you are. That's not something I've ever said to anyone. You've EARNED that distinction. Frankly, I did what you're doing 30 years ago and I did it right. Without the Mammy face. Again, nothing I would normally say to anyone but you get to be the first and last. Now you want me to put in words where you're lacking? No. You like everything in a pragmatic manner. Anything visceral seems foreign to you. That's what I'm pointing out. You're telling everyone how it should be done. Over and over and over. Then I take the time to check out your stuff and I think, W T F? Step 1, take up the... When I talk about the music driving things instead of a Mammy face, you can't make the connection as to how that manifests itself from thought to action? Really? Well, I see why now. Potts asked why is everyone so angry? I'm not angry. I'm smiling as I type. My patience is gone but my sense of humor is fully intact. I have no issue with going away forever and I understand this is probably where my actions are leading, I just thought a little honesty before I go would be a good thing.

 

 

I approve of this post.

[Vito Corleone]

I don't care if you've never done it. I just did. You've done plenty. You've been going off in a holier then thou manner for too long I wanted to put you in your place, David. It's that simple. You disagree? I don't care. I'm so tired of you trying to convince everyone of how good you are. How smart your band is. I've listened for years. I've had it. You are clearly not as good as you think you are. That's not something I've ever said to anyone. You've EARNED that distinction.

Sorry my band bugs you so much dude. I think you've got some issues there. What we do and how we do it doesn't work for you? So be it. What we do works. For us. And much of it would obviously work for others since it's mostly just about good business sense. But "serious muso" gets offended about people talking about show and business in a "band" forum?? Not really MY responsibility, you know? Again, that's what this forum is for.

Frankly, I did what you're doing 30 years ago

Exactly. And, from what I can tell, you haven't put together a solid band since. I've always had a good deal of respect for your views and positions: you're usually fair and evenhanded, and I've enjoyed some of the lyrics you've thrown together over on the songwriting forum. Some nice clever stuff. But it's pretty clear you're about 30 years out of touch with doing the band thing and now you're declaring you'll likely stop even trying to be in a band because there's no one out there good enough for you?

Please, sir. And I'M the arrogant one here?

Now you want me to put in words where you're lacking?

IIRC, you gave me some pretty good advice when I was asking what was lacking when I was putting together our video demo. Thanks for that. That, along with much of the other advice I got from people helped make it much better. But I'm not looking for where you think we're lacking at this time. I didn't ask for that. Again, we're hitting all our intended marks. You don't like the marks we've set or how we hit them? Fine. That's your choice. I have no problem with that AT ALL.

But instead of showing your OWN example of a successful band with instructions and advice on how to achieve similar success you only rag on others? C'mon. Really? That's what you're about? That's weak and lame.

I'm sorry you don't have a band. I'm sorry you haven't had one for 30 years. I'm sorry it bugs you so much that a band you think is weak is doing what you can't. That green-eyed monster seems to have gotten to you pretty hard.

There. I said it.

[Vito Corleone]

You are clearly not as good as you think you are.

 

 

LOL. "good"? "Good" at what? What claims of "good" have I ever made that I haven't backed up?

 

Have I ever claimed that I'm some awesome keyboard player or singer? That my band is packed with amazing musicianship? No. All I've ever claimed is that I know how to put together good cover bands and sell them and put on shows that people really like and are willing to spend good money for. That we set certain goals and met them. That's ALL I've ever claimed to be "good" at, and I've DONE all that.

 

And obviously, this really bothers you. A band that doesn't match your personal ideal of "good" has some success and this gets under your skin? Wake up. This is rock and roll.

 

So then you come in with unsolicited "advice" about where we are supposedly "lacking"? About how YOU think a "good" band should be about this or that without so much as smidgen of evidence that you've ever done that yourself? C'mon. Let's see this "showmanship on the brink of destruction" band you're in. And then tell us all how we can do the same thing.

 

Until then, you're just full of hot air.

[vanlatte]

 

I approve of this post.

 

 

All of this.

[Lee Knight]

I'm sorry you don't have a band. I'm sorry you haven't had one for 30 years. I'm sorry it bugs you so much that a band you think is weak is doing what you can't. That green-eyed monster seems to have gotten to you pretty hard.

Oh dude. No. I've had plenty of bands in the last 20 years. Toured Japan in the 90's. Played power pop festivals throughout the US. I just don't want to be in a band right now. No, really. Don't read anything into that. I'm 53. More power to you guys doing it at this age though. Seriously! Seriously!

There are plenty of great players out there. I think I prefer playing with them in the studio now-a-days. But think of me as arrogant if it helps.

But hey! Enough about me! This is about you!

My recommendation, take a step back, realize you're not all that, and put some thought into making some real music. Not song choice, but you... making some music. I know deep down inside that really isn't a foreign concept. You seem to have strayed though by all the other stuff grabbing your attention.

You're in a great position to do something very cool. But I'm sorry, your arrogance has earned my honesty, you aren't there right now.

[Yer Blues]

What if someone doesn't want to make "real" music though. What if they are perfectly happy playing mindless music just like others are perfectly happy never playing in a party band in their life?

[Lee Knight]

LOL. "good"? "Good" at what? What claims of "good" have I ever made that I haven't backed up? Have I ever claimed that I'm some awesome keyboard player or singer? That my band is packed with amazing musicianship? No. All I've ever claimed is that I know how to put together good cover bands and sell them and put on shows that people really like and are willing to spend good money for. That we set certain goals and met them. That's ALL I've ever claimed to be "good" at, and I've DONE all that. And obviously, this really bothers you. A band that doesn't match your personal ideal of "good" has some success and this gets under your skin? Wake up. This is rock and roll. So then you come in with unsolicited "advice" about where we are supposedly "lacking"? About how YOU think a "good" band should be about this or that without so much as smidgen of evidence that you've ever done that yourself? C'mon. Let's see this "showmanship on the brink of destruction" band you're in. And then tell us all how we can do the same thing. Until then, you're just full of hot air.

"And obviously, this really bothers you"

No, what bothers me is that you're emphasizing the white man's overbite style of groove and performance. After all this talk of you this and you that, I take a look and think, wow. I love the way you use the term "amazing musicianship". You think I'm talking Al Dimiola here? No, I'm talking about the fact that if put a little more into the groin and less into the ass kissing smile (Mammy!) you would be better at the very thing you want to be better at.

But instead, we get to hear you tell us how to be "successful". Your "success" is something I'm jealous of. Wow. What success exactly is that? It never occurred to me you were successful. So how exactly am I jealous of it?

I'm no muso. Jesus. I love a great band. Pop, Disco, Country, Jazz, Techno. DJ.

It bothers you that I don't play live anymore yet I've decided to say it like it is? So what? Do I really have to hold my tongue because you somehow think you're "successful"? Wow. Uh... no.

[Lee Knight]

What if someone doesn't want to make "real" music though. What if they are perfectly happy playing mindless music just like others are perfectly happy never playing in a party band in their life?

 

 

Well, that is an interesting idea. What do you think I mean by "real" music. I mean anything you like or you think your crowd will like but played with more than just a cursury nod to a "mistake free" performance. Music is more that just getting it right. I'm bothered by the fact that someone who doesn't get that (or forgotten it) is preaching "his way". That's a big yikes in my book.