It's settled: Do what you want. It's all good.

[rog951]

I think what Lee is getting at is that your band should not be above criticism when you are doling out criticism of other bands? Whether it be criticism of the music or of the "show." I think.

[Vito Corleone]

OK, I think maybe I see where this thread went awry:

 

I posted that people should put on better shows, and I got met with the response of "who are you to tell anybody what to wear when, musically, you're band ain't all that."

 

Well, it's not a "who's all that or not and in what areas" pissing contest. That's not what this forum should be about. Certainly not what I want it to be about or what I want myself to be about.

 

If any musician/band is on the scale somewhere between pretty-darn-happy-with to completely-satisfied with the results they are getting from their performances then, in my mind, you're "all that". If you do that playing awesome licks with awesome tones while wearing shorts or using a music stand....great. If you do that playing 2 chords out of tune while standing on your head and wearing a clown suit? Great as well.

 

But if you're not somewhere between pretty-darn-happy-with to completely-satisfied? Then let's talk about what's lacking and what maybe can be done to improve that. Telling people who ARE happy that they suck and maybe are too stupid to realize that they shouldn't even be happy? Comments such as "gee, you couldn't PAY me enough money to play a crappy song like that..." or "I'd never play ANY gig for free...." fall in this catagory, in my view.

 

I hope I haven't been like that. Or at least not very often. And, just in case I have been, I'll try harder to not ever be like that in the future.

 

So whaddya all say? Let's agree to respect each others goals and bands and business models and only try to help each other improve in areas where we would like to see improvment rather than trying to tear each other down--whatever the reason behind it might be?

 

Can't we all just get along?

[Vito Corleone]

 

I think what Lee is getting at is that your band should not be above criticism when you are doling out criticism of other bands? Whether it be criticism of the music or of the "show." I think.

 

 

I don't think I've ever thought we should be above criticism. I've looked for criticism here many times. I learned a lot by posting my work-in-progess demo video and asking for harsh criticism about what it was lacking and asking for ways to improve it. And it's a much better video now than it would have been otherwise thanks to all the constructive criticism I recieved. Include the stuff I chose to ignore. (You often only know you're on the right path when the wrong path becomes presented to you.) THAT'S when this forum is at it's best and what it should be about, IMO.

 

But general sort of "who are you to criticize wearing shorts when your drummer can't keep decent time" responses? Nah. That's not good for anything, is it? How does THAT help anyone?

[FranE]

Wow. You guys are really touchy. I'm all over internet forums at the moment, trying to pick up info - but seems to me that anything anyone says here, everyone else just justifies their own actions and attitudes and takes any contrary viewpoint as a personal insult.

 

This particular forum is unique in my internet travels. It SHOULD be about issues other than the music. But if anyone raises any of those other issues then apparently they're "not about the music". If playing in a band is "all about the music", then we can all just play in the garage.

 

I don't get it. I don't get why you guys don't get that. What are you doing here if you don't want to discuss anything other than "the music"?

[tim_7string]

I agree, FranE. On the touchy comment as well as the purpose of the forum. I think people should share their experiences and others can give their own experiences. Anyone saying "this is the wrong way" or "no, you're wrong"...well, that's counter-productive to learning as far as I'm concerned. There isn't only one way of doing things in a band, cover or original or a bit of both. Anyone who has a dogmatic approach and thinks that one size should fit all is fairly narrow-minded in my view.

 

People choose to believe what they want to believe. For example, some people may perceive that I'm "lazy" because I'm overweight or played in a local dive for chump change. They may also think that's as far as I've ever gone in the music world and that I 'suck' because of it. That's their perception but it doesn't necessarily mean it's correct. I've played weddings. Played outdoor concerts, festivals, proms, street dances (I hosted my first one this weekend, but I played in them years ago when others were running the show). I've been on the road playing 6-night weeks as well. I've been there. These are some gigs people today may never got or will get the chance to ever play. But if they only see that I'm some dude in his forties playing in a local bar, in their mind, I'm just some guy in a dad band. Nothing could be further from the truth. For one thing, I don't have any kids! I keed, I keed.

 

Basically, what I see is that it all comes down to abrasive personalities and people that will not EVER let someone else get the last word, no matter what the subject is or how far off they are in their thought process. And I think we know who those people are.

 

It has absolutely NOTHING to do with music, at ALL, and everything to do with being 'right'. And that's unfortunate, because it could be a better learning environment here rather than the pissing contests that it sometimes becomes.

[Vito Corleone]

 

People choose to believe what they want to believe. For example, some people may perceive that I'm "lazy" because I'm overweight or played in a local dive for chump change. They may also think that's as far as I've ever gone in the music world and that I 'suck' because of it. That's their perception but it doesn't necessarily mean it's correct.

 

 

Tim, I know we haven't always seen eye-to-eye, but any comments or criticism of you or your worked (perceived or real) has only been in the spirit of wanting you to be happy with what you're doing.

 

You're one of the guys who has been in and out of a lot of bands and situations in the time I've known you and you always seem to be looking for something more than you have now, you've think you've found it and are happy for a few weeks, and then the band has blown up and you're looking for somethign 'better' again.

 

Even now, you seem to be happy with the guys you're playing with (finally) but you're still searching for the right musical format/venues, etc. It just seems like an endless cycle.

 

You seem to be a bit happier lately than usual---congrats on the recent gig that went well---but don't you get tired of the merry-go-round?

 

But I hope you've finally found that stability you're looking for. That really is the key to a lot of this stuff for everyone. Nothing is ever really going to work, band-wise, until you've got some players you can spend a few years with.

[tim_7string]

You're one of the guys who has been in and out of a lot of bands and situations in the time I've known you and you always seem to be looking for something more than you have now, you've think you've found it and are happy for a few weeks, and then the band has blown up and you're looking for somethign 'better' again. Even now, you seem to be happy with the guys you're playing with (finally) but you're still searching for the right musical format/venues, etc. It just seems like an endless cycle. You seem to be a bit happier lately than usual---congrats on the recent gig that went well---but don't you get tired of the merry-go-round?

 

I am (happier lately and tired of the merry-go-round). It's why I decided to register the band name and make a website, committing myself to two years of having that band name back in January. I made a conscious decision to say "this is my home now." Do I like the name? Not particularly. But it is what it is and I'm getting too old to keep changing {censored} every year or two. I realize that it's better to work with what you have and improve that as best you can than try to always look for that next big thing. People probably think I'm a flake because of all the different bands I had and maybe I was. I do know that I am enjoying promoting this name and this group of people way more than I was with any of the other stuff I've ever done over the years.

 

My guys are great. I have always respected my cousin's abilities as a musician. I actually looked up to him when I was younger (he's 5 years older than me). We had fun playing together in a group I had 11 years ago. We had a falling out when I first moved to Grand Forks, but we've put that all behind us now. And my drummer is a great, positive, yet quiet guy. He is happy playing in a band with good musicians that treat him with respect. And he thinks my cousin is a great bandmember and musician. It's an all-around love fest lol.

 

Changing our focus is basically just us being more what we do. Instead of wimping out a bit for gigs and telling bar owners, "well if you don't like rock, we do a lot of country too" just to get hired, I'm starting to say "We play rock and we do a great job. If your audience loves rock too, we're your kind of band." Although there is a strong contingent of country fans up here, I know there are a lot of rock fans too and I'm targeting those people. I'd rather play for audiences that love what we do than ones that want us to be something else and I'd rather play what we do best than to try to please people with "maybe they'll like this? Orrrr...maybe this?". Playing the street dance this past Saturday actually reaffirmed this decision. They wanted to rock and they wanted to rock HARD. We gave it to them and everyone was happy. It turned out to be a real blessing.

 

But I guess along the way, I don't regret having my standards or my striving for better. My search for the perfect band has resulted in the band I have now. It took many years, but I have it now. My search for the perfect partner resulted in my wife of two years (girlfriend for four years before that). We found each other when I was 36. If I had settled for someone else in my twenties, I would never have met her. If I settled for the clowns I was playing with 20 years ago, I think I would be really jaded and bitter and I'd probably hate the music business or maybe not even play at all anymore. Instead, I'm more optimistic and energized than ever before.

 

But I hope you've finally found that stability you're looking for. That really is the key to a lot of this stuff for everyone. Nothing is ever really going to work, band-wise, until you've got some players you can spend a few years with.

 

That's exactly right. My drummer played with one guy for 12 years. That's impressive! When that guy retired to go into the studio recording business, he immediately thought of hooking up with me. He must have seen some of the same qualities in me. Whatever it is, I can see us working together for just as long if not longer. With my cousin being family, it's a whole different dimension, but the truth of the matter is we are almost like twins. We like similar music, have similar influences and have similar musicial abilties. We compliment each other but we can trust each others' ears when it comes to sound and knowing how to approach a song. As he puts it, he's always wanted another version of himself so he can relax and know the music is just played RIGHT. Right for us that is. You know that feeling of dread when you know someone is going to lose it at some point and you have to cover for them, or bring them back into the groove? We don't have to do that. It's CAKE. It's easy! It's the way it should have always been.

 

I'm very happy.

[rog951]

I don't think I've ever thought we should be above criticism. I've looked for criticism here many times. I learned a lot by posting my work-in-progess demo video and asking for harsh criticism about what it was lacking and asking for ways to improve it. And it's a much better video now than it would have been otherwise thanks to all the constructive criticism I recieved. Include the stuff I chose to ignore. (You often only know you're on the right path when the wrong path becomes presented to you.) THAT'S when this forum is at it's best and what it should be about, IMO. But general sort of "who are you to criticize wearing shorts when your drummer can't keep decent time" responses? Nah. That's not good for anything, is it? How does THAT help anyone?

 

Well, I don't want to put words in Lee's mouth - I'm just taking a stab at his intent. You actually seem to handle criticism better than most IMO, at least when it comes to criticism of your posting style!

 

But whenever someone is making critical statements about the way others approach things, they risk becoming a target themselves. We're all "out there" to some degree. Most of us here have posted videos at some point or have band links right in our sig, so posting here you're always risking it getting personal. I know my band's recorded material certainly doesn't show us in our best light! But that's what we'll be judged on by anyone who hasn't seen us in person. If I was to post critically of someone else's work, I'd expect my own to come under closer scrutiny by whomever I was criticizing.

 

Same when someone is offering up advice from the standpoint of self-perceived success or "being comfortable with one's position", which it sounds like is where you are with your band. Might be petty but I think it might come off as a challenge to find a "chink in the armour" and how convenient if the music itself turns out to maybe not be as perfect as it could be? One who professes striving for continuous improvement, and openly expects the same of others, better make damn sure things are buttoned-up tight at home!

[JailTime]

There's no reason for a fuss. The unique and great thing about this forum is that we are all in different situations and bands. It gives us exposure to all sorts and opens the door for disagreements. Also opens the door for new perspectives. Keep posting and don't take it too personally.

 

One piece of posting advice I'll give is that if you have to type "As I said before,..." just stop. You've already posted that and some of the rambling is tough to weed through. Keep it tight!

[flemtone]

(from the 'Old Rockers and music stands' thread) Playing rock and being rock are two different things. Rock is an attitude. Or at least it used to be. Is it now just a succession of notes played on an instrument by old folks who remember that they used to be rock long ago for other old folks that remember that they, too, used to be kinda rock long ago? Okay. Good luck with that.

 

[Vito Corleone]

That's exactly right. My drummer played with one guy for 12 years. That's impressive! When that guy retired to go into the studio recording business, he immediately thought of hooking up with me. He must have seen some of the same qualities in me. Whatever it is, I can see us working together for just as long if not longer. With my cousin being family, it's a whole different dimension, but the truth of the matter is we are almost like twins. We like similar music, have similar influences and have similar musicial abilties. We compliment each other but we can trust each others' ears when it comes to sound and knowing how to approach a song. As he puts it, he's always wanted another version of himself so he can relax and know the music is just played RIGHT. Right for us that is. You know that feeling of dread when you know someone is going to lose it at some point and you have to cover for them, or bring them back into the groove? We don't have to do that. It's CAKE. It's easy! It's the way it should have always been. I'm very happy.

 

Glad you're happy. Stick with what makes you happy.

 

In the early days of my band, I was unhappy with the bar scene and was looking to move to the infamous 'next level'. I didn't think I could do it with the guys I was playing with, so I was looking for other situations on the side. After trying to start a couple of projects with great players that never really got off the ground I realized I would be much better off trying to make something out of the band I was already in with great guys who had been together for years. Even if they weren't necessarily the best players or the best stage performers. That sort of camaraderie we have, you really can't buy and is hard to find. We may not be the most "soulful" band in the world, but we make it work with what we've got. Every band has weak spots you have to paper over. And we did manage to snag two very good singers who wouldn't waste their time working with us except we all get along so well and have a lot of fun doing what we're doing. De-emphasize what your band doesn't do well and exploit the hell out of the stuff you're great at. That's really what it's all about.

 

Have fun first and foremost. Then the hard stuff -- including things like wearing clothes you might not be particularly comfortable in or playing songs that aren't your personal favorites -- becomes easy.

[Vito Corleone]

 

um...

 

 

You do understand the difference between a direct criticism of a particular musician/band and a general comment about the state of live music, don't you?

[Vito Corleone]

Well, I don't want to put words in Lee's mouth - I'm just taking a stab at his intent. You actually seem to handle criticism better than most IMO, at least when it comes to criticism of your posting style! But whenever someone is making critical statements about the way others approach things, they risk becoming a target themselves. We're all "out there" to some degree. Most of us here have posted videos at some point or have band links right in our sig, so posting here you're always risking it getting personal. I know my band's recorded material certainly doesn't show us in our best light! But that's what we'll be judged on by anyone who hasn't seen us in person. If I was to post critically of someone else's work, I'd expect my own to come under closer scrutiny by whomever I was criticizing. Same when someone is offering up advice from the standpoint of self-perceived success or "being comfortable with one's position", which it sounds like is where you are with your band. Might be petty but I think it might come off as a challenge to find a "chink in the armour" and how convenient if the music itself turns out to maybe not be as perfect as it could be? One who professes striving for continuous improvement, and openly expects the same of others, better make damn sure things are buttoned-up tight at home!

 

Agreed 100%. I don't have any issue, really, with the fact I'm sometimes a target. I know my posting style puts myself in that position. I'm fine taking it--and giving it back when need be.

 

As far as criticism of my band goes, I'm pretty good with that too even if I take some of it with a grain of salt depending on the source. I've posted live clips of my band looking to hear the views and criticisms that I would never make available for the general public to see. I like the "backstage" aspect of this forum where I can share such things and get opinions that will hopefully help us improve without having to risk putting the band in a less-than-favorable light to potential paying clients.

 

I have a strong sense of who we are and what we do. I know our strengths and weaknesses and our position in the marketplace. So I know which criticisms are applicable and which are not. The trick is know which advice will help you reach your goals and which should just be ignored because it would be a distraction from staying on your path. But it's all good.

[Lee Knight]

I'll tell ya, I just went back and re-read what I posted about David's band and I said nothing mean. And I only spoke the uncomfortable truth when pushed. They are a competent band. I've said that a few times around here. I do not think his band sucks and I never said anything like that. But what I did do, is the unthinkable. I told him where I beleive he could stand to improve. That seems to have caught him off gaurd. Oh! The very notion of it! It must be the video sound!

 

I told them they could be better. Just as he does to everybody else.

 

Somehow the "music is a given". That's a quote from David. Many times over. It's the other stuff that needs the attention. No... I disagree.

 

This is what I've been meaning about it being about the music, I have never said and never will say... that it is only about the music. But I'm adament that that part of it does not get paid enough attention to. I've been more than nice with my point of view. Though certainly strong and focused. I too am trying to get people to think.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Somehow the "music is a given". That's a quote from David. Many times over. It's the other stuff that needs the attention. No... I disagree.

 

 

By saying the music is a given, I mean the ATTENTION to the music is a given. The whole basis for the argument in this thread is the idea that by posting people to pay attention to their show, that I'm somehow saying the music isn't important.

 

All of us here are in bands because we love music and we love playing music. So presuming that attention to the music is a given for virtually every band here doesn't really seem like such a big stretch to me.

 

 

I told them they could be better. Just as he does to everybody else.

 

 

I wasn't caught off guard, nor offended. You just seem to have somehow really missed the point on several levels. I've never made the claim that my band is a bunch of fantabulous players -- I've said I lub my girls and think they can stand with any female vocalists on our level, and I stand by that -- but the band? I've talked many times about how we're just a group of old dads. Part of the reason for me posting my stories is based on the idea --- and I've said this exact thing many times --- that if WE can pull this off, than ANYBODY can. None of this is rocket science. Or playing with the Philharmonic.

 

CAN we be better? Of course. Do we strive to be? Absolutely. But mostly just out of a sense of self-pride and accomplishment. As far as how it relates to the show, how we connect to the audience, and how that affects the bottom line of audience response and how much money we earn....honestly? It's probably at the point of diminishing-returns regarding what sort of results we'll get vs. amount of effort put in.

 

See, here's where I think you're missing the point. This is a LIVE PERFORMANCE forum. It's not an impress-your-fellow-musicians forum. You wanna talk about your slick licks and the theoretical construct of that solo--that's all fine and good, but anything beyond how it relates to the live performance and it starts to become mis-placed and irrelevant and maybe better suited for one of the many other forums on this board. If it's just about showing off your awesome playing skills, there's guys doing that all day long over on the guitar forums, I'm pretty sure. You want to show me your awesome playing skills and how the crowd went wild because you really sold it to them? Now THAT I want to see!

 

LIVE PERFORMANCE is really only about one thing and one thing only, IMO: connecting to the audience. Either your band is doing that, or it isn't. Pointing out what you see as weaknesses in my band because maybe we wouldn't connect to YOU because you think our playing is flat? I'm not sure really what that is designed to accomplish. I should quit the band and find better players to work with? I should cancel the gigs and sit home and practice my piano playing for a few more years before I perform again? For what purpose? To please Lee Knight? Why?

 

I'm sure there have been people who walked out of our gigs shaking their heads and not liking the band. No band pleases everybody. All any band can do is meet the goals they've set for themselves.

 

We do that. Every gig. And I don't say that to be a braggart because it's not about my awesome skillz, it's been all about hard work. And working smart. Being as concise and effective with the time put in. Sure, we could ignore all the other stuff and just concentrate on being the slickest players possible, but for what? So we could be a great $500 bar band that really impresses the hell out of the 6 musicians who show up and a few posters at HC? No, you gotta know how to work smart.

 

We've set goals. We meet them. Consistantly. And NONE of it comes without hard work. It's a pretty high bar we've set for ourselves. I feel like we're on a tightwire most gigs because we've got so many balls in the air we have to keep afloat for the gig to be successful.

 

No offense to anyone, but I don't see that many people here who seem to be meeting their own goals as consistantly and most have a much lower bar. Many are just bouncing around from situation to situation never even getting anything off the ground.

 

When YOU start meeting all your goals, then get back to me. Because, again, I think there's a lot of people here who would like to hear how you've gone about it so they could learn how to be better.

[Lee Knight]

 

By saying the music is a given, I mean the ATTENTION to the music is a given.

 

 

No, it doesn't appear to be. Really. You are assuming too much about your awesomeness.

 

I'm not coming out of nowhere saying this. You've rammed your ideas down people throats without respite. Look, I don't want to quote you then you quote me and we spin and spin. I disagree with you and what you consider important. You are putting too much emphasis on things that matter a lot less than a solid groove. You're preaching working from the top down. Man, I think you should work from the bottom up ^. Solid groove, fat feel, lmore balls, less Mammy face.

 

We do agree on some things but you seem to be overlooking the essential thing. If you don't get what that means then... exactly.

[SLScott86]

 

No, it doesn't appear to be. Really. You are assuming too much about your awesomeness. I'm not coming out of nowhere saying this. You've rammed your ideas down people throats without respite. Look, I don't want to quote you then you quote me and we spin and spin. I disagree with you and what you consider important. You are putting too much emphasis on things that matter a lot less than a solid groove. You're preaching working from the top down. Man, I think you should work from the bottom up ^. Solid groove, fat feel, lmore balls, less Mammy face. We do agree on some things but you seem to be overlooking the essential thing. If you don't get what that means then... exactly.

 

 

As he's said, how is a person who is happy and successful prioritizing the wrong things? Would not catering to clients get him better clients? Somehow I doubt it.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Man, I think you should work from the bottom up ^. Solid groove, fat feel, lmore balls, less Mammy face.

 

 

I know you think that, and that's great. But like I said, show us the results and the path to get there. Show us how well you're meeting your goals using that bottom up approach and fill us in on the details, because many here would like to do the same thing.

 

My goals aren't everyone goals. Nor should they be. And my approach isn't the only approach. Nor should it be. But it IS an approach that works---I've got the results to prove it---, and some or all of my goals ARE shared by many. So obviously there's stuff to be learned there.

 

If you've got a different path for reaching the same goals, or a different path for reaching different goals? Great! Let's hear about it! Let's see the results!

 

So let's hear it, Lee: what are the goals for you and your band? How well are you hitting them and how have you gotten there? THAT'S what matters.

 

But you telling me MY band doesn't meet YOUR goals? Or that OUR goals aren't "what matters"? C'mon. That's bull{censored} and you know it.

[BATCAT]

You know something, I know my band has a lot of work to do right now to get our music up to snuff (relatively new lineup, new material, had some time off without regular practices) but I'm still doing a lot of work on other things- clothing, lights, other visuals. I don't think it's an either-or matter or that there's some bar or musicianship you have to reach before you are allowed to consider showmanship.

[toddkuen]

 

... LIVE PERFORMANCE is really only about one thing and one thing only, IMO: connecting to the audience . Either your band is doing that, or it isn't. ... ... Sure, we could ignore all the other stuff and just concentrate on being the slickest players possible, but for what?

 

 

David - I think some of the previous comments are because of the composition of your "audience" here at the "Band" forum (your comments indicate that's what you concentrate on).

 

"Backstage With the Band" is one of about 45 or more subforums at HCF - all of which are about various aspects of music: studio work, lighting, live sound, composition, hardware, trade shows, computers, etc. etc.

 

Only this and Solo/Duo are really all about LIVE PERFORMANCE.

 

So I'd guess about 95-99% of the total HCF people here are probably not into the "corporate band" aspect of music as you are (this is my guess). For example, in the Keyboard forum they would laugh at the threads here on "backing tracks" - a lot of what they do about there is only tracks (stand alone, performance, studio, etc.) - their perspective is very different.

 

But a lot of these same people come to the Band forum because along with whatever they do they care about playing out as well.

 

Like it or not bottom line your audience is a lot of hardcore musicians (players) at all levels of skill, ability, talent, commercial success, etc.

 

In defense of Lee's comments: He's into much more here, e.g., he runs the "Songwriting" forum. I've used this as have I am sure others. I also grant Lee a lot of respect here because of this and his comments over the years (either to me or on forums). So on the music end Lee is probably "hard core" so that's where his comments are coming from (not speaking for him).

 

Do I care if he likes my band's music - no. But I do care about what he might say technically about it, for example: he's "good ear's" - always well thought out, positive and constructive.

 

Its one of the reasons I like HCF.

 

As such some, myself included, don't agree with your basic "connecting to the audience" philosophy.

 

In my duo (which is not all I do) we play the same whether we're alone, fooling around, at a family get together, or on stage. Our goal is always first and foremost a connection with the music.

 

I would say our fans come from people who first connect with the music as we do (not they heard it on the radio today - instead its tied to some life changing event). They then become our fans because of the respect and effort we put into what we do with music that's important to them.

 

A very different philosophy than your band has.

 

My opinion: Your "audience" here at HCF is a few folks who are into exactly what you're about and probably a lot who view what you are saying as some form of heresy: like having a punk band sub for one of your wedding gigs - a few would really dig it, quite a few wouldn't.

 

Certainly all your comments are welcome but some probably don't sit well for many, e.g., the quoted comment above, so some friction is to be expected.

[Vito Corleone]

 

so some friction is to be expected.

 

 

And that's fine. We DON'T all come from the same perspective and share the goals so there is bound to be some friction from time to time and rears its head and then needs to be smoothed over. This isn't the first time such friction has happened on this forum and won't be the last. It's all good. We're all brothers and family at the end of the day.

 

So, like I said, let's all step back and try to approach this with a sense of mutual respect for each other's goals and work and not a sense of competition.

 

I've made my philosophy pretty clear. I've made my goals clear and I've gone into great detail about how well we've reached them and how we've gotten there. I hope that is useful information for some people here. If it doesn't apply to you? Ignore it. My goals aren't your goals? You'd never want to play in a band like mine? All good. Message received.

 

So let's here about your method: what are your goals for your live band and how well are you meeting them and what tips do you have for others who might share similar goals?

[Lee Knight]

You know something, I know my band has a lot of work to do right now to get our music up to snuff (relatively new lineup, new material, had some time off without regular practices) but I'm still doing a lot of work on other things- clothing, lights, other visuals. I don't think it's an either-or matter or that there's some bar or musicianship you have to reach before you are allowed to consider showmanship.

 

Absolutely!!! You are a fine man with some healthy humility! I totally get what you're saying.

 

I've seen too many bands coast on the music. "Hey! We're not making any mistakes!!!" Billy Jean can sound like the weakest thing imaginable played in a milquetoast fashion. Or it can sound like the devil whispering in your ear giving you a boner. It's not playing like the "philharmonic", it's playing with some intent.

 

The very thought that that doesn't effect an audience is... wow.

 

Now, if your (not you Actionsquid) corporate client is going crazy for your shenanigans, more power to ya! But sadly, at this point, what you got in the crosshairs is barely lunch. If you're ignoring this essential ingredient.

 

And if by me not being in a working band right now, and most likely won't (by choice), if that renders my experience impotent, OK then. I'm fine with that. I'm not sure I get the logic but, I'm game if that's the deal of the forum.

[toddkuen]

 

So let's here about your method: what are your goals for your live band and how well are you meeting them and what tips do you have for others who might share similar goals?

 

 

As an acoustic piano/keys duo we're always looking to make things tighter and fuller - we're probably where we want to be on quite a few songs, but there's a lot more songs we could do better. We're working through them by playing them more often at gigs.

 

We are always working on "while playing" communication skills so we have more freedom to interpret the music: harmonizing, improvising, and listening. This has been going on for years and will probably never end.

 

I can't recommend enough learning to play by "listening" to yourself and what others are doing. One form of this is playing to a simple click. More advanced is playing to another player and doing on-the-fly interactions (hearing he's going there so I am going to harmonize here on the the chorus this time around).

[Vito Corleone]

 

Now, if your (not you Actionsquid) corporate client is going crazy for your shenanigans, more power to ya! But sadly, at this point, what you got in the crosshairs is barely lunch. If you're ignoring this essential ingredient.

 

 

You keep saying this but you keep slipping past the question about goals. It's the "essential ingredient" to what? Clearly we're not all trying to bake the same cake here. You're trying to tell me I have the recipe all wrong yet you won't tell us even what sort of cake you're trying to bake. Let alone why kind of cake you think I should be baking.

 

My cake? I gave you the flavor. And the ingredients. And the recipe. And the customers are eating it up. There's none left at the end of the night. I charge them more for it and they still pay because they seem to like it so much. And the cooks are having a great time in the kitchen. More fun than a barrel of monkeys, as the old saying goes.

 

So let us into your kitchen, Lee.

[Vito Corleone]

 

As an acoustic piano/keys duo we're always looking to make things tighter and fuller - we're probably where we want to be on quite a few songs, but there's a lot more songs we could do better. We're working through them by playing them more often at gigs. We are always working on "while playing" communication skills so we have more freedom to interpret the music: harmonizing, improvising, and listening. This has been going on for years and will probably never end. I can't recommend enough learning to play by "listening" to yourself and what others are doing. One form of this is playing to a simple click. More advanced is playing to another player and doing on-the-fly interactions (hearing he's going there so I am going to harmonize here on the the chorus this time around).

 

 

Very cool. Good stuff. I'm sure I'd enjoy hearing you guys perform.

 

How about the gigs you get-- Are you booking the type of gigs you want? Playing as often as you'd like? Making the kind of money you think you should make? Getting the audience response you like?