Moderators Lee Knight Posted July 31, 2012 Moderators Share Posted July 31, 2012 You keep saying this but you keep slipping past the question about goals. It's the "essential ingredient" to what? Clearly we're not all trying to bake the same cake here. You're trying to tell me I have the recipe all wrong yet you won't tell us even what sort of cake you're trying to bake. Let alone why kind of cake you think I should be baking. My cake? I gave you the flavor. And the ingredients. And the recipe. And the customers are eating it up. There's none left at the end of the night. I charge them more for it and they still pay because they seem to like it so much. So let us into your kitchen, Lee. Solid time. Creative rests/space. Imaginative dynamics. Unique interpretation. Groove. Push/Pull. Showmanship that teeters on the brink of destruction and sometimes goes over the edge. Playing as a team that breathes together and feels the same pulse and its power to move people to either {censored} or cry or laugh.I know that sounds like bull{censored} to you. Behind the beat and softer feels laid back and groovy. Behind the beat and LOUD feels heavy.Ahead of the beat and soft feels energetic and bubbly. Ahead of the beat and LOUD feels nervous and exciting.I don't resent what you do. I resent that you believe, and how firmly you believe, that's all there is to it. And you're teaching others how to believe the same thing. It's not that you have the recipe wrong, it's that you are so convinced of your way that you're dumbfounded when someone says, "But I don't like your way." I don't like your way, David. Live and let live. That's what I've been doing for the past how many years reading your posts. But now I call bull{censored}. The sarcastic title of this thread was what it took. How DARE they not agree with you!!!! See? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted July 31, 2012 Members Share Posted July 31, 2012 I'd much rather bounce ideas around than win some kind of debate, though I've allowed myself to be drawn into debates here. Hopefully that will happen more here and then I'll participate. In the meantime, I've decided it's far more productive for me to spend my time studying harmony, reading more music, improving my facility on bass guitar, and listening to new music. I'm on the bench due to personal reasons and so is rather use this time to improve such that I can keep the passion alive. Rote anything is bull{censored}. Lack of energy and passion in performance is what is really wrong with most bands and players, myself included. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted July 31, 2012 Moderators Share Posted July 31, 2012 Very cool. Good stuff. I'm sure I'd enjoy hearing you guys perform.How about the gigs you get-- Are you booking the type of gigs you want? Playing as often as you'd like? Making the kind of money you think you should make? Getting the audience response you like? Yeah! He could use a little more JumpStartYourParty!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted July 31, 2012 Members Share Posted July 31, 2012 Bluestrat had a post where he talked about being called out by a blues heavyweight after what he thought was a good performance (hey, no mistakes!) Guy said something along the lines of: are you even listening to the song? What I got out of that is we have to get inside the tune: feel what the writer felt. Like red house, which is probably the least listened to song EVER. Dude is locked out of his crib, and the key won't fit the lock! This ain't about waiting for the awesome solo spot. It's about feeling what he felt. Then you play. Yeah I know it sounds ridiculous, pretentious and for gods sake, have I earned the right? Yeah I think I have because it strips away the bull{censored}. Billie jean is a great example too. Listen to the lyrics! it's an accusation, a big one! But bands will polish that song till it has no {censored}ing life or passion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted July 31, 2012 Members Share Posted July 31, 2012 Bluestrat had a post where he talked about being called out by a blues heavyweight after what he thought was a good performance (hey, no mistakes!) Guy said something along the lines of: are you even listening to the song? What I got out of that is we have to get inside the tune: feel what the writer felt. Like red house, which is probably the least listened to song EVER. Dude is locked out of his crib, and the key won't fit the lock! This ain't about waiting for the awesome solo spot. It's about feeling what he felt. Then you play. Yeah I know it sounds ridiculous, pretentious and for gods sake, have I earned the right? Yeah I think I have because it strips away the bull{censored}. Billie jean is a great example too. Listen to the lyrics! it's an accusation, a big one! But bands will polish that song till it has no {censored}ing life or passion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted July 31, 2012 Members Share Posted July 31, 2012 And I HATE it when a female lead sings a male lead without altering the story. In other words, Billie Jean should NOT be sung by a female. It makes no damn sense! bobby McGee worked for Janice but she altered a lyric or two, and in so doing it became her story, her song. Con moto.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SLScott86 Posted July 31, 2012 Members Share Posted July 31, 2012 And I HATE it when a female lead sings a male lead without altering the story.In other words, Billie Jean should NOT be sung by a female. It makes no damn sense! bobby McGee worked for Janice but she altered a lyric or two, and in so doing it became her story, her song. I wholeheartedly disagree. The song is the song, from the perspective of the songwriter or the character in the songwriter's song. I don't have a son named Levon, let alone one who will be a good man. Jimmy Eat World, who I love (whatever back off) writes original music from the perspective of a female character, and says things like "I'm sorry boy." . How can a woman claim the kid isn't her son? "Sorry, ma'am, that definitely came out of you." I might have daisy dukes and a bikini on top, like other California boys... And so on. Edit: That's what you were saying about Billie Jean. But that doesn't bother me in the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted July 31, 2012 Author Members Share Posted July 31, 2012 Solid time. Creative rests/space. Imaginative dynamics. Unique interpretation. Groove. Push/Pull. Showmanship that teeters on the brink of destruction and sometimes goes over the edge. Playing as a team that breathes together and feels the same pulse and its power to move people to either {censored} or cry or laugh. I know that sounds like bull{censored} to you. Well, some of it does sound like bull{censored}. Showmanship that teeters on the brink of destruction and sometimes goes over the edge.?? power to move people to either {censored} or cry or laugh.??? Those are clever phrases but they don't really mean anything substantial or concrete. It's just a better way of saying "we want to go out and kick serious ass!". Well yeah. OK. We all do. I was kind of hoping for something a bit more specific as to what the end result of that looks like. But that's cool. But the rest is all good. I get wanting a band that performs musically at a certain level. That's cool. So how do we all do it? And what will be the results we can expect when we've followed this path? I know you're not in a band right now, but that doesn't matter. I'm sure you've done it in the past, right? Do you have any goals for gigging? Or is it just all about once your band plays at a certain level, you don't really care where/how often/for how much you gig if even at all? I don't resent what you do. I resent that you believe, and how firmly you believe, that's all there is to it. What's "it"? What is this "it" you seem so certain I've got all wrong? And you're teaching others how to believe the same thing. I'm not trying to teach anyone to believe anything. I'm offering an example of one path to achieve certain goals. If they aren't your goals, that's cool. It's not that you have the recipe wrong, it's that you are so convinced of your way that you're dumbfounded when someone says, "But I don't like your way." I don't like your way, David. I'm not dumbfounded that you don't like my way. I just think it's wrong that you say you don't like my way without offering up a credible alternative instead of broad dismissals and vague allusions about "groove". Fine. If being in a groovin' band is the sum total of your goals, then having a band that grooves WOULD be the best way to do that. No argument from me on that count. It's all a bit vague and I think a lot of people here are looking for a bit more beyond that, but you've made your point. The sarcastic title of this thread was what it took. How DARE they not agree with you!!!! See? I've stated this already, and I'm trying to not repeat myself, but the thread title had nothing at all to do with people not agreeing with me. It's about people who seem so offended whenever the subject of showmanship is brought up in a BAND forum that they've got to act like any such discussion is an affront to musicianship. No. It ISN'T "just about the music" for most everyone who plays in a live band. And THIS forum is the obvious place to discuss that stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted July 31, 2012 Moderators Share Posted July 31, 2012 Well, some of it does sound like bull{censored}. Showmanship that teeters on the brink of destruction and sometimes goes over the edge.?? power to move people to either {censored} or cry or laugh.??? yes, they very much do mean something. That's my point. You are an obtuse man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted July 31, 2012 Author Members Share Posted July 31, 2012 Yeah! He could use a little more JumpStartYourParty!!! Good response, Lee. You're knocking them out of the park today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted July 31, 2012 Author Members Share Posted July 31, 2012 yes, they very much do mean something. That's my point. You are an obtuse man. No, they don't mean anything. See, that's the problem that others in this thread alluded to already: vague, subjective goals of "groove" or "showmanship that teeters on the brink of destruction"--- only YOU know what that means to YOU. If I came in here asking for advice on how to have "showmanship that teeters on the brink of destruction" what would be your suggestion? How would you tell me to get there? How would I know when I had? That's why, IMO, certain aspects of what a band does ARE best left to be taken for granted and/or discussed elsewhere. How to negotiate with clubowners? How to put together a better light show? How to draw up a good contract? How to pace your sets and which songs do/don't work in certain situation? How to pack your trailer so you can get on and off stage in the shortest amount of time possible. THAT'S stuff we can discuss objectively and help each other improve with. My band doesn't groove? We don't achieve "it"? OK. Thanks for that opinion. Duly noted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted July 31, 2012 Author Members Share Posted July 31, 2012 Here's some other points towards the being critical about musicianship stuff: First of all, I don't think I've ever really done that with anyone. What would be the point? The only time I've gotten near that topic might be when someone has posted clips of their band, talking about how in their view the band isn't very good and how they aren't working much, getting good audience response, etc and then there might be something glaring and obvious like a poor lead singer and it makes sense at that point to say "yeah...that's what's holding you back. You're not going to reach your goals until you get a better vocalist". But to bag on what you perceive as weaknesses in how my band plays music? What's the purpose of that? It can't because I'm looking for answers to why we aren't reaching our goals and how we play might be the reason because we ARE reaching our goals. So obviously whatever lack of groove might exist isn't an issue. It would be like telling The Beatles they needed a better drummer. No, I think they accomplished everything they set out to do with Ringo. Hell, they might have even got there with Pete Best. Should I tell Grant that his guitarist isn't very good or that his drummer doesn't groove or that his keyboard patches are lame? With all the success his band is having, do you really think he'd give a {censored}? Or that he should? What purpose would doing any of that serve? (Even IF I believed it were true) How would that help his band be "better"? Better at doing what? Really. What are you trying to say here, Lee? That I should start firing band members and looking for better players so that we can reach your goal of "better groove"? Because that's probably the only way we'd achieve it at this point. Sure, we could all practice a lot more and such but seriously, a bunch of guys our age who have already been playing together for 10 years....if we ain't groovin' now, it probably isn't going to happen, ya know? And again, to what end? To achieve what goal? More gigs? don't need 'em. Higher pay? Don't need that. Turning on the crowd and making them want to {censored}, cry or laugh? That box is already checked. Feeling spent, exhausted and happy at the end of the gig? Already there. Meeting Lee Knight's vague definition of what a successful band is? Well, I guess we blow it big time in that respect. Damn. What failures we are! And if that's what you're saying at all, then you clearly don't have the first clue what being in a BAND is really all about. I feel sorry for you guys who flitter around from band to band and are constantly replacing members in search of something "better" that really...if you haven't found it by the time you're 50, I'm not sure you ever will. Because you don't have "it" and never will. "It", for a band, isn't about finding the best players you can find and blowing all your fellow musicians away. It's about finding the right chemistry and making as much happen as you can possibly make happen within the styles, personalities and abilities of the individuals and the group. THAT'S the secret sauce in the recipe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Potts Posted July 31, 2012 Members Share Posted July 31, 2012 "It", for a band, isn't about finding the best players you can find and blowing all your fellow musicians away. It's about finding the right chemistry and making as much happen as you can possibly make happen within the styles, personalities and abilities of the individuals and the group.THAT'S the secret sauce in the recipe. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members toddkuen Posted July 31, 2012 Members Share Posted July 31, 2012 Very cool. Good stuff. I'm sure I'd enjoy hearing you guys perform.How about the gigs you get-- Are you booking the type of gigs you want? Playing as often as you'd like? Making the kind of money you think you should make? Getting the audience response you like? Yeah - we're okay on the gig front - we play a lot during the week which is nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted July 31, 2012 Author Members Share Posted July 31, 2012 Yeah - we're okay on the gig front - we play a lot during the week which is nice. Right on. That's what it's all about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members toddkuen Posted July 31, 2012 Members Share Posted July 31, 2012 It's about finding the right chemistry and making as much happen as you can possibly make happen within the styles, personalities and abilities of the individuals and the group. Agreed. But for me that's only part of the sauce in my opinion. But what I said was important to us and what we work on is exactly what Lee said: "Solid time. Creative rests/space. Imaginative dynamics. Unique interpretation. Groove. Push/Pull. Showmanship that teeters on the brink of destruction and sometimes goes over the edge. Playing as a team that breathes together and feels the same pulse and its power to move people to either {censored} or cry or laugh." One of our "rules" is "no stopping" so if you cause the train wreck you have to clean up the mess - which is a hard thing to do with intricate stuff - sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't - but you will never know until you try. This is what makes the sauce better than just "plain vanilla." What I think Lee is saying if you never "push it to the brink" during a show you'll never know what you could do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted July 31, 2012 Author Members Share Posted July 31, 2012 What I think Lee is saying if you never "push it to the brink" during a show you'll never know what you could do. I agree. And I THINK we do that. It certainly FEELS like we do. I KNOW we do regarding the not-strictly-musical parts of the performance. And I feel that we do that musically as well. If it's not to the level or degree that would get Lee's rocks off? I have no idea. But WE have a good time and our audiences certainly do. And that's why it's so hard to discuss these musical aspects and so much easier to focus on the more-tangible stuff. Having a hard time getting some better paying gigs? "Well, maybe try dressing better and going for a more "professional" image. Or try all standing closer together in your promo shot. That's worked for me" is some easy advice to give and something anyone can at least consider trying and is easy to do if they choose to try. "Your band needs more Push/Pull"? Uh. OK. I mean, what's a band supposed to do with that, and depending on the caliber of musicians who's to say they even could? While "no stopping" is our general rule too, we don't always follow it. Our drummer is very good at stopping songs mid-stream and making the whole trainwreck into a comedy bit. He'll often put the 'blame' on someone in audience. "We wouldn't have messed up that bit if that very pretty lady hadn't distracted me so much..." or some such nonsense. He'll even pull that stuff sometimes when we haven't messed up. Silly and corny, but people dig it. Again, make 'em laugh, make 'em cry, make 'em wanna {censored}. I agree with all of that. And use whatever and whichever tricks you have at your disposal. If you do it with push/pull? Great. If you have other tricks up your sleeve? What the hell is wrong with that as long as it WORKS? I was telling you in the other thread that the thing I'm most proud of is the comments and response we get from audience members and clients. For someone to send us an email or write an online review telling us how much they liked the band? Hey...that's a BIG deal to me. THAT means we're connecting. When you said you played the Neil Young song at a memorial service and everyone dug it? THAT was very cool. THAT'S what this stuff is all about. Reaching people. People slag on playing weddings and I certainly used to and still do in some respects, but there is one thing very cool about playing weddings that you don't really get doing any other sort of gig: and that's connecting with people during an event that is so personally important to them. Weddings are a big deal for most of the people there. And there's usually a lot of money being put out as well. To have people come up and tell us that WE made their day for them, and how we were the best band they've ever seen and all that? Sorry, but THAT'S connecting to people. And when they tell us we were the "best band ever" (a compliment we get a lot) I don't think it means we put on the best musical performance they've ever witnessed. Or that we fooled them with a lot of stage craft and whiz-bang effects. What I believe that means is that we were maybe the best suited-for-a-specific-event band they've ever seen. Some band just sitting in the corner playing some great songs might be technically more proficient and were able to reach the audience to a certain degree by using that, but we work very hard at reaching them on numerous levels and working to tweak each show to fit their specific event as much as we can without twisting ourselves into an unrecognizable pretzel. And that's hard work. And takes real professionalism and performance skills and musicianship. I'm very proud of the shows we put on and the level at which we perform them. Because we REACH people and connect with them in a very real way. Yeah, sometimes it's about partying with them. But a great party makes people want to cry and laugh and {censored} too. It's all good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Piano Whore Posted July 31, 2012 Members Share Posted July 31, 2012 It's all good. But, is it SETTLED? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted August 1, 2012 Author Members Share Posted August 1, 2012 And I HATE it when a female lead sings a male lead without altering the story.In other words, Billie Jean should NOT be sung by a female. It makes no damn sense! Oh here we go. Yesterday you were Mr. "Make the song your own" and now you're Mr. "play it like the record" again? I can't keep up. There's no rules to this {censored}, and for the most part nobody cares from the perspective of a cover band. If a female were RECORDING a version of Billie Jean? I suppose keeping the gender straight would make a difference. But a cover band? Who really cares? You think people are paying attention to pronouns? Geez...some of you guys really DON'T gig very much, do you, if THIS is the nitpicky sort of stuff that comprises "life and passion" to a song. When we do BJ, we have a male sing the first part of the verse and a female sing the bridges. They both sing the chorus (although I guess it's really just the female singing the harmony.) Honestly, I haven't even paid attention to the gender. On the male songs that the girls sing, I leave it up to them to decide what to do with gender. Whatever feels comfortable. Sometimes, I think it sounds kinda dorky and corny to turn them all into girl songs. But it their songs. Let them do what they want. The singer I worked with throughout most of the 80s never changed anything. She always sang the original lyrics because she thought she was being more true to the song. I agreed with her, for the most part. And having her sing stuff like "I wanna be your backdoor girl" on "Whole Lotta Love" would have been silly. Honestly, I don't even know what Tiff sings on BJ. "Mama always told me, be careful what you do...don't go around breaking young girls' hearts..." Hmmm, I guess that could be awkward for a girl lyrically--but there's other ways to interpret it. Maybe now the singer is a third party--maybe Billie Jean's best friend scolding him instead of the male lead scolding himself. But what I think is more important is the way the song "lifts" when her voice takes over for Michael's when we hit the bridge. Creates much more of a "moment" and adds life and energy to what we're doing. However they sing it, it always goes over very well. But if someone ever comes up to us and tells us it sounded bad, or I see them cranking their head funny and walking off the dance floor when the girl starts singing, I'll let you know. Funny song gender story though---we played a lesbian wedding a few weeks back and I usually sing Jessies Girl by changing the name of "Jessie" to the groom's name and singing it essentially 'to' him with the bride standing next to me. Well, hard to do THAT for this wedding, so I alternated both of the brides' names and changed all the genders. Somebody should record a version like that with a guy singing it about a GIRL named Jessie. It's much more interesting. And I think some of that similar gender-bending tension happens when girls sing guy songs but don't change the gender. Guys like songs about lesbians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted August 1, 2012 Author Members Share Posted August 1, 2012 But, is it SETTLED? It was settled for ME in the first post. But I can't speak for anyone else.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rog951 Posted August 1, 2012 Members Share Posted August 1, 2012 Yeah we do. [video=youtube;IgEXny_5pAk] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted August 1, 2012 Members Share Posted August 1, 2012 Wow David. Way to miss the point. Where did I say play it like the record? I said play it like you mean it: like youre living and feeling the song. You know what I'd like to see more of here? More sharing of ideas approaches and philosophies. Not from an instructional, here learn from me perspective but more from a "I think this is a cool way to do" perspective. For example, we were talking all that theory the other day and I wanted to share an Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted August 1, 2012 Author Members Share Posted August 1, 2012 Wow David. Way to miss the point. Where did I say play it like the record? You don't want to hear girl sing guys songs because the genders get mixed up. That's back to "playing it like the record". You're not thinking about the possibilities of what a female timbre might add to the song, how it might change it in positive ways or that simply might result in the best performance for that band. I said play it like you mean it: like youre living and feeling the song. Yes. Play every song like you mean it. Something that, in my view, goes without saying. I'm starting to get a bit annoyed that so much of the {censored} being piled on me is because I haven't constantly repeated stuff that is 1st Grade stuff. Playing every song like you mean it is like learning to read. I'm discussing how to write a better book and you want me to remind people that they need to learn to read first. I'm not interested in talking to the first graders. You know what I'd like to see more of here? More sharing of ideas approaches and philosophies. I agree. And that's what I've been trying to do for the last couple of pages in this thread. I've made my and my band's musical and music-business goals pretty clear. And I've discussed in great detail (too much detail for many) to what degree we've been able to meet those goals and the steps we took to get there. So let's hear the alternative views. You do something differently that me? GREAT! You're really happy with the results you've gotten and think you can lay some good advice on people here about how to reach a similar level of success and satisfaction as you have? GREAT! Let's hear it. I'm sure there's some tips I could use as well. But just wasting everyone's time with happy horse{censored} about "showmanship on the brink of destruction" without providing any examples of you having done that or any tips on how to achieve that? Nah. I don't have time for that. So hopefully we'll get some better suggestions from others? Maybe you can start? Not from an instructional, here learn from me perspective but more from a "I think this is a cool way to do" perspective. Well actually I think that's a lot of problem we have around here. There's a LOT of people talking about what they THINK would be a cool thing to do, based either on their recollections of what they did 25 years ago, or something they saw on TV or came to them in a dream or whatever, but unless it has been put to practical use and can be shown to work...I'm not sure what the value is. Yes...I'm pretty sure every band member on this forum would love to go out on stage and put on a show that is so dynamic that it's on the 'brink of destruction'. I think. I'm not sure what that would actually look like, but my vision of it is optimistic. But unless somebody can tell me how to do it....I'm not sure what value there is. Just yell at people to "be better"? "practice harder"? Kinda doesn't really seem of that much value, don't ya think? That's why I liked starting the Brad Paisley thread. Let's all look at some examples of somebody who really does the {censored} right. And let's see what we can take from that and use down on our own smaller levels with our own little bands and shows. The guy is a "connecting to the audience" machine. And his band certainly helps deliver that, doncha think? And I'm gonna guess that not everyone in his band loves every song they play. I've already heard comments here that his songwriting is weak. I'm not that familiar with his music, so I don't really have an opinion on the songs. But those guys play it like they mean it, for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted August 1, 2012 Members Share Posted August 1, 2012 But David: I already spend time watching greats and trying to learn from them. I bet a lot of cats do that. You rail against lee being vague yet you dismiss me out of hand for wanting to share an Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted August 1, 2012 Author Members Share Posted August 1, 2012 But David: I already spend time watching greats and trying to learn from them. I bet a lot of cats do that. You rail against lee being vague yet you dismiss me out of hand for wanting to share an Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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