It's settled: Do what you want. It's all good.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Oh My recommendation, take a step back, realize you're not all that, and put some thought into making some real music. Not song choice, but you... making some music. I know deep down inside that really isn't a foreign concept. You seem to have strayed though by all the other stuff grabbing your attention.

 

 

But why have you decided to take it upon yourself to tell me what I need to do put some thought into? I'm HAPPY with where I am in my life and what I'm doing. Musically and otherwise. The music I make isn't "real" enough for you? OK. I don't care. I'm not playing for you. Why is it you are feeling this need to tell somebody who is doing something successfully and is happy with what he's doing that it's "wrong"? Because you personally don't care for the band? Because the way I post my stories and my advice sounds arrogant to you?

 

Look. I'm not lacking for anything. I got all that songwriting and "making music" stuff out of system when I was much younger. You know, back in the day when I still had a realistic chance of making something serious happen with it. I've got no regrets or sense of disappointment about any of that. It was a great time in my life and I took a good shot at it and had a lot of fun doing so.

 

I'm 50 years old now. I've got a good career. An AMAZING wife and little girl. I've got no illusion that I'm going to still write a hit song for somebody. Or that I'm going to post a recording of myself online and selling a million downloads worldwide. Or that I'm going to go on the road backing the latest country superstar. Or that I'm going to have people lined up around the block to check my awesome licks and be in a band that will pull in 1,000 people a night for a $10 cover charge. I'm in a weekend cover band. In Lake Tahoe. One with a bunch of great people that I have a lot of fun playing with. And --- because I've been doing this a long time and I understand the business and I'm pretty good at marketing stuff (THERE'S the one bit I'm arrogant about) -- I've found a way to niche the band for the market we're in so that we can be about as successful as we can probably be doing the type of gigs we want to do. And this bugs some people because it involves stuff that seems cheesy to them? Sorry that bugs anyone. It works. As I've said over and over, take what you can and learn from and ignore the rest. Or ignore all of it. I've never said what I do is the ONLY way to do anything, or the BEST way to do it. About all I've ever said is that if a bunch of old plunkers like us can do this, then anybody can. And that's 'arrogance' to you? Fine.

 

You've got better suggestions and examples? Present them.

 

Here's what I think in my "let's be honest" mode: I think a lot of guys focus on how much satisfaction they get from putting together a great lick or playing some cover tune that they think is musically awesome because that's all they have going on. When you're only playing music in your garage or small, poorly-attended bars it's hard to get excited about too much else. And then sometimes resentment of what other people are doing sets in.

 

And I fully understand that boner you get from having great musical moments onstage. We have those as well, believe it or not. Or at least they feel like it to us. Better skilled musicians might need more complex arrangements or something to get them off...I dunno. But that's not ALL there is. Like I was telling Todd earlier, my GREATEST satisfaction comes from the audience response we get. I love entertaining people. Putting smiles on their faces. Making them happy. I'm more proud of the "client response" page on our website than any of the audio or video clips. That stuff IS real. When we're done playing some private event and we spent 30 minutes listening to people tell us how much WE made their event happen for them? THAT'S real and that feels as good as any magical musical moment on stage. Better, for me, in many ways. That we do more than just focus on the music to create that? Whatever. That's what we do. We have fun doing it. We like it. If it's just all "mammy-face" to you....That's your issue, man. Not mine.

 

I"M happy and fulfilled with my music. Many others here don't seem to be. I'm not so sure you are right now. So it's MY 'mammy-face' act that bothers you?

 

I think YOU are the one who maybe needs to take a step back and look at yourself.

[Vito Corleone]

you would be better at the very thing you want to be better at.

 

 

What is it you think I "want to be better at"? You keep telling me I'm lacking when I'm not feeling that. When my audiences aren't feeling that. It's like you're going into a chicken joint telling them they need burgers on the menu in order to be a successful restaurant.

[SLScott86]

There is so much backward lack of self awareness in this thread. I quit.

[Vito Corleone]

What success exactly is that? It never occurred to me you were successful.

This is getting way too repetitious.

I've stated repeatedly that we obviously don't all have the same goals or the same means to get there. And that's as it should be.

I've stated my goals, how I define success and how well we've met those. I can list them again if you need me too.

I've asked you to state yours and and tell us how well you've done meeting them and offer suggestions on how others can do the same thing.

You've not been able to do it. Instead, all we get is "oh, You're successful? I had no idea?"

[Lee Knight]

Well, I like that post ^^^. (sorry #301)

But really, I've tried very hard to show you that some people are getting a little tired of the know it all act. I've hinted, I've talked around it. You've agreed with me even when you didn't realize I was referring to you. Then I even used the sledgehammer approach and it seems to have not registered with you. You seem unwilling to see it. I'm not a mean guy. I can be though.

As far as me stepping back and taking a look at myself, you're right. That's what I'm doing right now. I'm serious.

I've made my point best I can. Thank you all for listening! Back to the old Lee.

[Vito Corleone]

So what? Do I really have to hold my tongue because you somehow think you're "successful"? Wow. Uh... no.

 

 

And we're back where we started. We're successful at everything we've set out to do, but we don't meet Lee Knight's definition of success.

 

Who made you the arbiter of any musician/band's definition of their own successs?

[Lee Knight]

And we're back where we started.

We never left.

[Piano Whore]

My thoughts on musicianship and this "groove" stuff, not directed to any one person. But while we're on the subject:

 

To maintain that discussions about musicianship and that darned vague, elusive and subjective "groove" concept etc don't really belong in this forum and that noone here should care about that if it doesn't lead to immediate, tangible results in the form of Big Bucks, is just as absurd IMO as to maintain that clothes, gear, booking strategies etc aren't important. But yes it's pretty obvious that it's much easier to discuss concrete issues (vs musicianship) on online forums- that's just the nature of the beast.

 

RE the importance of groove: Playing in a band that has no feel, no soul and doesn't "groove", or where the drummer and bass player fight each other, is WORK, for me. Hearing and feeling an actual groove makes playing Mustang Sally, Honky Tonk Woman etc for the zillionth time not only bearable but fun (although I might draw the line at "3 Steps" .) I shouldn't be so selfish but I like to get my jollies, if possible, while doing a gig with a band. The songs don't have to have complex chord changes or solo space, improvs etc but they better at the least, GROOVE somewhat. Otherwise I would take a gig with a karaoke-type band or shovel horse{censored} or something of that nature, to make a few bucks.

 

So why not give a little attention to a factor that makes your gig more enjoyable and fulfilling, and inspires people to shake their butts a little more vigorously? So you already enjoy playing with your band. Good! Increase your enjoyment- improve the groove. There's no sure and set amount of pay-off, but working at it DOES pay. I advise against the passive "it is what it is", old dog/new tricks attitude. I know alot of local musicians in their 40's and 50's who play better than ever, and do things they couldn't do 5 years ago. I know I do (although my playing still has some quirks that it has always had, trying to work on taming those).

 

I know I'm not a groove monster, but in the last few years I have had more comments from other players that I have gotten somewhat "groovy" at times. (Timing has always been my weakest area, something I have to work harder at). I think that any improvement came mostly from listening to more groove-based music, but also from playing along with funky drum loops. Lee posted sometime back with suggestions about how to approach practicing with a click to improve your groove. I haven't yet tried it- getting ready to do just that. I'm officially a funemployed, "professional" musician again (yippee), so now I have more time to do those type things.

 

I know that all that comes off like happy-crappy, delusional "we can all be great if we just TRY" self-improvement BS. But I'll gladly take that over passive acceptance that I suck, and always will, just barely good enough to mechanically plod through my songs on stage without any major clams.

 

FWIW I haven't listened to much of David's stuff, but I really enjoyed the Feel Like Making Love clip. David wasn't hot in the mix, but I could get into what he played. My new project has just snagged a good chickie singer and I'm hoping I can sell them on that version. Once again, sorry for the positivity, won't happen again!

[Vermoulian]

 

I just don't want to be in a band right now.

 

 

I realize it will be almost impossible to say this without it sounding snide, but in all sincerity, then why do you spend so much time in this forum? It seems like there are a number of people who participate a lot here but who are not really interested in the basic band management topic that this forum is about---people who aren't in bands, aren't involved in running their bands, or in some cases (like you) aren't even interested in joining or forming bands.

 

From a lot of posts, it seems more like such people are weighing in from the perspective of fans of music, i.e., telling people with bands what they'd like to see. But in a business environment where people vote with their wallets, musicians are generally outvoted when it comes to influencing what bands in the marketplace do. I, too, am frustrated by that and wish that the musical bar could be raised in the local bar scene; I strongly suspect that a lot of the "more effort on music" posts in these forums come from that perspective. But I have faced the sad fact that there are not enough people like me out there to cause bands and club owners to cater to us and our preferences.

[SLScott86]

"You are holier than thou and shouldn't be satisfied because you should be better musicians."

[Vito Corleone]

My thoughts on musicianship and this "groove" stuff, not directed to any one person. But while we're on the subject: To maintain that discussions about musicianship and that darned vague, elusive and subjective "groove" concept etc don't really belong in this forum and that noone here should care about that if it doesn't lead to immediate, tangible results in the form of Big Bucks, is just as absurd IMO as to maintain that clothes, gear, booking strategies etc aren't important. But yes it's pretty obvious that it's much easier to discuss concrete issues (vs musicianship) on online forums- that's just the nature of the beast.

 

No doubt groove and musicianship are important. It's just hard to discuss much beyond "my bass player and I really locked in last night". Or "the band I saw just wasn't tight". OK. That's all interesting, but it's hard to DO much with that in an advice/learning manner.

 

Lee wants to tell me that my band should try to "Make some music" and "make the audiences want to cry, laugh and {censored}" and "have showmanship on the brink of destruction." OK. I'll suggest that to the band at the next rehearsal I mean...whaddya do with that (even IF I was looking for such advice)? Might as well tell me that to be happy I need to write an albums worth of killer songs and marry the girl of my dreams. It's not REALLY telling me how to improve upon anything, is it.

 

Honky Tonk Woman etc for the zillionth time

 

We don't play this song (I never really have except in a just fake-through-it manner when sitting in with another band or something) but we've got it coming up as a special request for a gig in a couple of weeks. I want to do something different with it---IF the band can actually get together and rehearse it. Elton John did a live version of it years ago that I want to borrow from---I'm thinking opening the song with an acapella 3-part harmony chorus (or half chorus really) and then have the drums kick it in basically the way Nigel did on the Elton version and see if the band can push it more towards an R&B/boogie groove rather than the Stones' groove and see where we land. If it comes off as cool as I hear it in my head, then it might be another classic rock 'keeper' for us.

 

FWIW I haven't listened to much of David's stuff, but I really enjoyed the Feel Like Making Love clip. David wasn't hot in the mix, but I could get into what he played. My new project has just snagged a good chickie singer and I'm hoping I can sell them on that version. Once again, sorry for the positivity, won't happen again!

 

See...some of my stuff DOES inspire some others once in awhile. And stay positive!

[wades_keys]

My thoughts on musicianship and this "groove" stuff, not directed to any one person. But while we're on the subject: To maintain that discussions about musicianship and that darned vague, elusive and subjective "groove" concept etc don't really belong in this forum and that noone here should care about that if it doesn't lead to immediate, tangible results in the form of Big Bucks, is just as absurd IMO as to maintain that clothes, gear, booking strategies etc aren't important. But yes it's pretty obvious that it's much easier to discuss concrete issues (vs musicianship) on online forums- that's just the nature of the beast. RE the importance of groove: Playing in a band that has no feel, no soul and doesn't "groove", or where the drummer and bass player fight each other, is WORK, for me. Hearing and feeling an actual groove makes playing Mustang Sally, Honky Tonk Woman etc for the zillionth time not only bearable but fun (although I might draw the line at "3 Steps" .) I shouldn't be so selfish but I like to get my jollies, if possible, while doing a gig with a band. The songs don't have to have complex chord changes or solo space, improvs etc but they better at the least, GROOVE somewhat. Otherwise I would take a gig with a karaoke-type band or shovel horse{censored} or something of that nature, to make a few bucks. So why not give a little attention to a factor that makes your gig more enjoyable and fulfilling, and inspires people to shake their butts a little more vigorously? So you already enjoy playing with your band. Good! Increase your enjoyment- improve the groove. There's no sure and set amount of pay-off, but working at it DOES pay. I advise against the passive "it is what it is", old dog/new tricks attitude. I know alot of local musicians in their 40's and 50's who play better than ever, and do things they couldn't do 5 years ago. I know I do (although my playing still has some quirks that it has always had, trying to work on taming those). I know I'm not a groove monster, but in the last few years I have had more comments from other players that I have gotten somewhat "groovy" at times. (Timing has always been my weakest area, something I have to work harder at). I think that any improvement came mostly from listening to more groove-based music, but also from playing along with funky drum loops. Lee posted sometime back with suggestions about how to approach practicing with a click to improve your groove. I haven't yet tried it- getting ready to do just that. I'm officially a funemployed, "professional" musician again (yippee), so now I have more time to do those type things. I know that all that comes off like happy-crappy, delusional "we can all be great if we just TRY" self-improvement BS. But I'll gladly take that over passive acceptance that I suck, and always will, just barely good enough to mechanically plod through my songs on stage without any major clams. FWIW I haven't listened to much of David's stuff, but I really enjoyed the Feel Like Making Love clip. David wasn't hot in the mix, but I could get into what he played. My new project has just snagged a good chickie singer and I'm hoping I can sell them on that version. Once again, sorry for the positivity, won't happen again!

Yeah, this.

 

The other side of the coin is jaded, passive acceptance. And that does come across on performance.

 

Really, David keeps talking about the same old mistakes? Well, that means its time to mix things up a little bit. Easiest way to force the issue is say: look guys, we keep {censored}ing up that same part again and again. If we can't get it right we need to drop the song; the mistakes are hurting our band.

 

A band I left three years ago STILL {censored}s up the intro to radar love! Lol. See, if that were me, I'd insist that we not play the damn song.

[Piano Whore]

RE Jumpstart version of Feel Like Making..it's nice to recall an instance when this forum was helpful. Tbone said "check out this remake of a worn-out BC tune!" David likes it, puts up clip of his band doing it, I see it and think THAT'S COOL! Wish MY band would do that!

 

A few years ago I got sick our chick singer (at the time) singing one of the greatest songs ever written (IMO), Kris Kristofferson's "Help Me Make It Through the Night. All I could think about was "help ME make it through the next 15 minutes (seemingly) of this interminably boring and drawn-out song." Got to thinking, why wouldn't that song work as a more up-tempo, grooving, even lascivious song? The Feel Like Making Love clip reminded me of that idea. BTW David tell your chickie that there's a 'neck down in MS that thinks she ROCKS.

[Lee Knight]

...but in all sincerity, then why do you spend so much time in this forum? It seems like there are a number of people who participate a lot here but who are not really interested in the basic band management topic that this forum is about---people who aren't in bands, aren't involved in running their bands, or in some cases (like you) aren't even interested in joining or forming bands.

It's a valid question. And I do know you're sincere and not being snide. I come here because I loved being in bands. I post during my work day as a telephony/audio manager for a major marketing company. Browser is minimized then opened during the ebb and flow of the work day. I'm not trying to say I'm above being in bands. Frankly I feel a little too old and busy now-a-days. But I love that guys are still doing it my age and older. More power to you guys!!!

So, I get the irony of me posting like this. I get that it's probably wrong. But it isn't like I haven't been there. From the age of 17 till I was 32 maybe? I played with hardly a vacation. Nonstop professional with out any other jobs. When I got a day gig, I managed to still play in bands off and on over the years and loved it. I produced albums for a good span of time as well. I get bands.

And up until a couple weeks ago, I thought I'd be jumping in for another round. I've decided against it for health reasons. I just wanted to leave speaking the truth about what I was seeing. I'm not a disinterested bystander. I'm not someone who hasn't been there. I'm not angry. I'm not bitter. And yes, I've got a big mouth when I decide to consciously turn it on. But now I've turned it off.

[Vito Corleone]

Really, David keeps talking about the same old mistakes? Well, that means its time to mix things up a little bit. Easiest way to force the issue is say: look guys, we keep {censored}ing up that same part again and again. If we can't get it right we need to drop the song; the mistakes are hurting our band.

 

If it were that simple, it'd get fixed. It's not the same part over and over. It will be {censored}ing up one simple song one night and another one the next. And then knocking them both out of the park for the next couple of gigs only to f' them both up on the gig after that.

 

It's just concentration stuff. Mostly due, in my view, to age, too many years of smoking pot, and guys that have never been good at focusing in the first place. Like I said, music stands would probably be the best cure.

 

And it's all a bit nitpicky too. It's unreasonable, and frankly unmusical, to expect every song to be played mistake-free every night. And we put a lot of balls in the air every show. We're certainly not a Brad Paisley level show, but then again Brad's probably got 50 people making the whole thing happen. We do it all with 7, so really all I can do is keep pushing everyone to stay on their game (including myself) and hope for the best.

[tim_7string]

"You are holier than thou and shouldn't be satisfied because you should be better musicians."

 

I thought you quit?

 

[Vito Corleone]

 

The Feel Like Making Love clip reminded me of that idea. BTW David tell your chickie that there's a 'neck down in MS that thinks she ROCKS.

 

 

Will do. The girls love the ego strokes.

 

And I'm so proud of Amy. When she joined the band the year ago she had little actual live singing experience (she does give vocal lessons, so she has some training background) outside of her praise band. And she sang with a vibrato that I found so annoying that we almost didn't hire her because of that. And she had virtually no experience or knowledge of modern pop (a very UN-vibrato style of singing) and being able to sing that stuff was something we were really looking for in a 2nd singer. And she wasn't a rocker. But...she was a great natural harmonizer, has nearly perfect-pitch, looked the part, really wanted the gig, and got along great with Tiffany. My expectations were maybe she'd just be mostly a 'background' singer.

 

But she's worked her ass off in the last year. Lost the vibrato, matches Tiffany so close in tone that when they sing together I can't tell who is singing which part most of the time, nails the pop-tart tunes and rocks the hell out of that BC song. When we decided to do it, I thought Tiff would sing it because SHE'S got the big rock-belter voice. But Amy's competitive side is not going to let anyone outshine her at anything if she can possibly help it.

 

Am I bragging again? Yeah. Sorry I lubs my girls. Us old plunkers don't deserve them fronting our old dad band. I'll brag about them all day long.

[Piano Whore]

Yep, in my own humble (non-singing) opinion alot of vocalists would sound alot better if they lost the vibrato. So says the deaf guy, anyway.

 

And BTW I'm the world's worst for getting on peep's nerves harping about the talent of musicians and bands I play with. Sometimes you just can't help it.

[Piano Whore]

It's a valid question. And I do know you're sincere and not being snide. I come here because I loved being in bands. I post during my work day as a telephony/audio manager for a major marketing company. Browser is minimized then opened during the ebb and flow of the work day. I'm not trying to say I'm above being in bands. Frankly I feel a little too old and busy now-a-days. But I love that guys are still doing it my age and older. More power to you guys!!! So, I get the irony of me posting like this. I get that it's probably wrong. But it isn't like I haven't been there. From the age of 17 till I was 32 maybe? I played with hardly a vacation. Nonstop professional with out any other jobs. When I got a day gig, I managed to still play in bands off and on over the years and loved it. I produced albums for a good span of time as well. I get bands. And up until a couple weeks ago, I thought I'd be jumping in for another round. I've decided against it for health reasons. I just wanted to leave speaking the truth about what I was seeing. I'm not a disinterested bystander. I'm not someone who hasn't been there. I'm not angry. I'm not bitter. And yes, I've got a big mouth when I decide to consciously turn it on. But now I've turned it off.

THat's OK with me, Lee. You might not be in the game, but as long as you hang around here you are more than welcome to suit up, in my view. What would ball games be like without hecklers, anyway? :poke:


Sorry, couldn't resist. A little bit of smart*ss just poked through my kumbaya (but at least I'm a benevolent smart*ss). I think you make a better coach than heckler, anyway.

[vanlatte]

Gotta love the irony of a "Screw you guys, I'm going home" post still going strong 13 pages later.

[stevesherbert]

I don't care if you've never done it. I just did. You've done plenty. You've been going off in a holier then thou manner for too long I wanted to put you in your place, David. It's that simple. You disagree? I don't care. I'm so tired of you trying to convince everyone of how good you are. How smart your band is. I've listened for years. I've had it. You are clearly not as good as you think you are. That's not something I've ever said to anyone. You've EARNED that distinction. Frankly, I did what you're doing 30 years ago and I did it right. Without the Mammy face. Again, nothing I would normally say to anyone but you get to be the first and last. Now you want me to put in words where you're lacking? No. You like everything in a pragmatic manner. Anything visceral seems foreign to you. That's what I'm pointing out. You're telling everyone how it should be done. Over and over and over. Then I take the time to check out your stuff and I think, W T F? Step 1, take up the... When I talk about the music driving things instead of a Mammy face, you can't make the connection as to how that manifests itself from thought to action? Really? Well, I see why now. Potts asked why is everyone so angry? I'm not angry. I'm smiling as I type. My patience is gone but my sense of humor is fully intact. I have no issue with going away forever and I understand this is probably where my actions are leading, I just thought a little honesty before I go would be a good thing.

 

 

this is perhaps the lamest post so far... guido has been 100% upfront about the fact that what he's saying works for HIM, and perhaps it might work for someone else, and he's given solid reasons why he thinks he can generalize in that way. so either show why he can't generalize that way, or don't. so you don't like the way he says things? don't click on the damn thread. you don't like him calling you out on your bull{censored}? stop making such weak arguments. i LIKE that he sticks to his guns in the face of bull{censored}ting, name calling, and otherwise douchey behavior.

 

does everything anyone ever says REALLY have to be prefaced with obvious disclaimers like 'of course there are exceptions' or 'imho'? anyone who has EVER engaged in a discussion already knows to take everything with a grain of salt. salt taken, continue discussion. can't handle a little salt? stay out of the kitchen.

[rog951]

 

this is perhaps the lamest post so far... guido has been 100% upfront about the fact that what he's saying works for HIM, and perhaps it might work for someone else, and he's given solid reasons why he thinks he can generalize in that way. so either show why he can't generalize that way, or don't. so you don't like the way he says things? don't click on the damn thread. you don't like him calling you out on your bull{censored}? stop making such weak arguments. i LIKE that he sticks to his guns in the face of bull{censored}ting, name calling, and otherwise douchey behavior. does everything anyone ever says REALLY have to be prefaced with obvious disclaimers like 'of course there are exceptions' or 'imho'? anyone who has EVER engaged in a discussion already knows to take everything with a grain of salt. salt taken, continue discussion. can't handle a little salt? stay out of the kitchen.

 

 

"No likey, no clicky" doesn't work well with Guido because of his omnipresence. Everyone would probably love the guy if he came off with a little more humility and if he could learn how to take his foot off the proverbial gas a bit.

[tim_7string]

so you don't like the way he says things? don't click on the damn thread.

 

I wouldn't be clicking on any threads at all if I took that viewpoint. He has ensconced himself in pretty much EVERY thread in the BWTB sub-forum.

 

Or haven't you noticed that?

[stevesherbert]

I wouldn't be clicking on any threads at all if I took that viewpoint. He has ensconced himself in pretty much EVERY thread in the BWTB sub-forum. Or haven't you noticed that?

well i see you in pretty much every thread on here too, and i don't particularly care for what you say, either. but i realize that this is an internet discussion forum, so i don't cry about it.

people who basically tell other people to shut up are bullies, and i have NO respect for that. so either grow a pair, ignore guido, or go somewhere else. lame.

[stevesherbert]

 

"No likey, no clicky" doesn't work well with Guido because of his omnipresence. Everyone would probably love the guy if he came off with a little more humility and if he could learn how to take his foot off the proverbial gas a bit.

 

 

and if you came up with meaningful points to add to discussions every now and then, perhaps people would love you too.