Members tim_7string Posted December 20, 2012 Members Share Posted December 20, 2012 Originally Posted by RobRoy My wife got two CD's from a band that played at our church a few months ago. The first was terrible and the second was really great. The guys are absolutely pro on both disks and the lead singer is incredible. The only real difference between the two CD's is that the first one had absolutely NO backing vocals. Every single song was a good band backing up a solo singer. It was boring. The second had them all over the place and it was like a different - and much better - band. Heck, even the old Elvis stuff had those guys throwing in those corny two or three part backing lyrics. It just adds interest.You aren't going to use it much on songs like Born to be Wild, but there is plenty of opportunity to do it. And it is amazing what it does for crowd response. I've witnessed it first hand. Your band goes up a few notches in everybody's heads so that even Born to be Wild, with no backing vocals, seems to sound better. As a three-piece with a non-harmony singing drummer (he does a bit of minimal backing lines but not really 'harmony'), I knew it was important for us to have a bass player that could easily sing harmony. Otherwise, the alternative was for me to use a vocal harmonizer. Going without vocal harmonies for four hours with only my lead vocal? Um, no thanks. Even *I* wouldn't want to hear that all night! A relative of one of my cousins has a band. He is the leader, but he is the lead guitarist off to the side. He does sing a majority of the songs, but his nephew is in the middle, singing and playing rhythm. Why not just go three-piece? Because the drummer doesn't sing at all and the bassist only sings lead on a couple of tunes (zero harmony). He needs the nephew to sing harmony when he is singing lead (and does likewise for the nephew on his songs).If I absolutely could not find any bass players that could sing harmony, it would force our band to add a fourth member just for those harmony vocals. Whether they played great guitar or keys or anything would be irrelevant. It's just something I *have* to have in a band and from the reaction of audiences I have played for, they feel the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tim_7string Posted December 20, 2012 Members Share Posted December 20, 2012 Originally Posted by Lee Knight Nothing against subs but...Let's say I was working behind the counter of a cool guitar shop. I young player comes in and says, "I'd like to look at delay pedals." Sure. Then I grab a couple and start with a EH Memory Man. The young player plugs in and... he can't play in tune, the distortion from the amp is mismanaged by the player. His tone is whack because of zero right hand technique... and he says, "Hmmmm, let me try the Boss, I think that's the one that Jack White uses." The same god awful sound comes out of the amp. There is no discernible difference between pedals in this scenario. The young guitarist smiles and says, "Ahhhh, that's the sound. Yeah, that cool White Stripes thing. Which one do you like better for my sound?"Ummmm. Guitar lessons? For your sound?BTW, I'm not suggesting the OP is like this kid. His band showed a lot of promise. But, subs? Fine, get subs. Yes, it's all important. The thing is, it so easy to get distracted from what matters. Delay pedals and subs and LED lighting. They're all great. All good stuff. Obviously, the band SOUND (collective parts played together by the individuals, not the sound of the PA) is paramount. You have to have something good to put out there to begin with, something worth selling. If you can't sing in tune or have super-cheap equipment, adding subs is not going to make you sound like rock stars. I think we all get that. But if your band is halfway-decent, getting asked to play at the same places again, etc., yes, subs will help. LED lights will help. Nothing will help a band that sucks other than practice or getting the right members together that can actually sing and play in tune and in time together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tim_7string Posted December 20, 2012 Members Share Posted December 20, 2012 Originally Posted by Lee Knight Nothing against subs but...Let's say I was working behind the counter of a cool guitar shop. I young player comes in and says, "I'd like to look at delay pedals." Sure. Then I grab a couple and start with a EH Memory Man. The young player plugs in and... he can't play in tune, the distortion from the amp is mismanaged by the player. His tone is whack because of zero right hand technique... and he says, "Hmmmm, let me try the Boss, I think that's the one that Jack White uses." The same god awful sound comes out of the amp. There is no discernible difference between pedals in this scenario. The young guitarist smiles and says, "Ahhhh, that's the sound. Yeah, that cool White Stripes thing. Which one do you like better for my sound?"Ummmm. Guitar lessons? For your sound?BTW, I'm not suggesting the OP is like this kid. His band showed a lot of promise. But, subs? Fine, get subs. Yes, it's all important. The thing is, it so easy to get distracted from what matters. Delay pedals and subs and LED lighting. They're all great. All good stuff. Obviously, the band SOUND (collective parts played together by the individuals, not the sound of the PA) is paramount. You have to have something good to put out there to begin with, something worth selling. If you can't sing in tune or have super-cheap equipment, adding subs is not going to make you sound like rock stars. I think we all get that. But if your band is halfway-decent, getting asked to play at the same places again, etc., yes, subs will help. LED lights will help. Nothing will help a band that sucks other than practice or getting the right members together that can actually sing and play in tune and in time together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted December 20, 2012 Moderators Share Posted December 20, 2012 Originally Posted by tim_7string Obviously, the band SOUND (collective parts played together by the individuals, not the sound of the PA) is paramount. You have to have something good to put out there to begin with, something worth selling. If you can't sing in tune or have super-cheap equipment, adding subs is not going to make you sound like rock stars. I think we all get that. But if your band is halfway-decent, getting asked to play at the same places again, etc., yes, subs will help. LED lights will help. Nothing will help a band that sucks other than practice or getting the right members together that can actually sing and play in tune and in time together. Of course! And after watching the OP's video I feel he's jumping the gun by getting "subs". He showed the videos for a reason. I'm glad he did. The lack of lower octave from the PA was far less of an issue than the unpolished stage presence. Plain and simple. Subs won't fix that. So apparently I am not stating the obvious. And I really think it needs to be said. They have some work to do before attracting bigger fish, gig-wise. Looking at the audience and sharing a good time with them is far more powerful than a banner. Wowing them with some tight harmony actually has a bigger impact that chase lighting. I'm not just playing hard to get along with. I think by concerning themselves with this other stuff before the essentials are fully in place is a mistake that won't help them even in the short run. OK... I'll stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted December 20, 2012 Moderators Share Posted December 20, 2012 Originally Posted by tim_7string Obviously, the band SOUND (collective parts played together by the individuals, not the sound of the PA) is paramount. You have to have something good to put out there to begin with, something worth selling. If you can't sing in tune or have super-cheap equipment, adding subs is not going to make you sound like rock stars. I think we all get that. But if your band is halfway-decent, getting asked to play at the same places again, etc., yes, subs will help. LED lights will help. Nothing will help a band that sucks other than practice or getting the right members together that can actually sing and play in tune and in time together. Of course! And after watching the OP's video I feel he's jumping the gun by getting "subs". He showed the videos for a reason. I'm glad he did. The lack of lower octave from the PA was far less of an issue than the unpolished stage presence. Plain and simple. Subs won't fix that. So apparently I am not stating the obvious. And I really think it needs to be said. They have some work to do before attracting bigger fish, gig-wise. Looking at the audience and sharing a good time with them is far more powerful than a banner. Wowing them with some tight harmony actually has a bigger impact that chase lighting. I'm not just playing hard to get along with. I think by concerning themselves with this other stuff before the essentials are fully in place is a mistake that won't help them even in the short run. OK... I'll stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 20, 2012 Members Share Posted December 20, 2012 Originally Posted by Lee Knight BTW, I'm not suggesting the OP is like this kid. His band showed a lot of promise. But, subs? Fine, get subs. Yes, it's all important. The thing is, it so easy to get distracted from what matters. Delay pedals and subs and LED lighting. They're all great. All good stuff. How is buying a subs a distraction from being able to practice? Subs take some money/little time. Practice takes little money/lots of time. How does one preclude or distract from the other?Any band that could use both should be able to do both if they have the necessary resources. No distraction at all, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 20, 2012 Members Share Posted December 20, 2012 Originally Posted by Lee Knight BTW, I'm not suggesting the OP is like this kid. His band showed a lot of promise. But, subs? Fine, get subs. Yes, it's all important. The thing is, it so easy to get distracted from what matters. Delay pedals and subs and LED lighting. They're all great. All good stuff. How is buying a subs a distraction from being able to practice? Subs take some money/little time. Practice takes little money/lots of time. How does one preclude or distract from the other?Any band that could use both should be able to do both if they have the necessary resources. No distraction at all, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Potts Posted December 20, 2012 Members Share Posted December 20, 2012 I have to say that I'm with Lee Knight on this one completely! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Potts Posted December 20, 2012 Members Share Posted December 20, 2012 I have to say that I'm with Lee Knight on this one completely! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 20, 2012 Members Share Posted December 20, 2012 Originally Posted by Potts I have to say that I'm with Lee Knight on this one completely! So how good does a band have to be before they are good enough to be allowed to buy subs? How do we determine this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 20, 2012 Members Share Posted December 20, 2012 Originally Posted by Potts I have to say that I'm with Lee Knight on this one completely! So how good does a band have to be before they are good enough to be allowed to buy subs? How do we determine this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mstreck Posted December 20, 2012 Members Share Posted December 20, 2012 I want to weigh in on this... someone made a joke earlier about subs making you a better band by improving your harmonies, etc. IMHO, they were actually half-right. Speaking from experience, let me say that, in my mind, we are "slightly better than mediocre". We don't suck as much as some, but there are still a lot of bands that could eat us for breakfast. Still, we've come a long way since Day One and have a few gigs that other bands would kill for, so I think what I have to say may have some merit.As I look back on how we've progressed over the years, I can say that as our equipment got better, we did as well. Not because of the equipment - but because the less we had to worry about equipment, the more we could concentrate on improving harmonies, stage presence, etc. It is a result of having simple things like powered subs and tops that cut down our setup time, a reliable mixing board and FOH rack, a dedicated sound man, a dedicated light man, improving our stage monitor setup - those environmental things that minimize distractions and allow us to concentrate on the stuff that WE have control over when we set foot on that stage - stuff like our appearance, our harmonies, and our stage presence (I am still working on all three).It's like going out on a date and dressing in clothes that make you look good - you are the same person that you are in sloppy clothes, but it raises your confidence so that you can actually become a bigger and better version of yourself without worrying about how you look. Yes, the music matters, but aren't you going to work on that anyhow? If you're not, then you need to sit at home and play in your bedroom.The same goes for the practice room that I've put hours of time and lots of money into - although our practice equipment isn't the best, we can walk in and get to work without needing to set up amps/drumkit/mics. Rehearsals are now more efficient and we get a LOT done. Not because we're working harder, but because we don't have the distractions that would keep us from working hard. Your working environment matters!So, I do think that investing in things like subs/lights/banner *will* increase your value, by helping you get out of your own way so you can work on woodshedding harmonies and stage presence. It's a package deal. The short answer to the OP is this: improve everything that you can! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mstreck Posted December 20, 2012 Members Share Posted December 20, 2012 I want to weigh in on this... someone made a joke earlier about subs making you a better band by improving your harmonies, etc. IMHO, they were actually half-right. Speaking from experience, let me say that, in my mind, we are "slightly better than mediocre". We don't suck as much as some, but there are still a lot of bands that could eat us for breakfast. Still, we've come a long way since Day One and have a few gigs that other bands would kill for, so I think what I have to say may have some merit.As I look back on how we've progressed over the years, I can say that as our equipment got better, we did as well. Not because of the equipment - but because the less we had to worry about equipment, the more we could concentrate on improving harmonies, stage presence, etc. It is a result of having simple things like powered subs and tops that cut down our setup time, a reliable mixing board and FOH rack, a dedicated sound man, a dedicated light man, improving our stage monitor setup - those environmental things that minimize distractions and allow us to concentrate on the stuff that WE have control over when we set foot on that stage - stuff like our appearance, our harmonies, and our stage presence (I am still working on all three).It's like going out on a date and dressing in clothes that make you look good - you are the same person that you are in sloppy clothes, but it raises your confidence so that you can actually become a bigger and better version of yourself without worrying about how you look. Yes, the music matters, but aren't you going to work on that anyhow? If you're not, then you need to sit at home and play in your bedroom.The same goes for the practice room that I've put hours of time and lots of money into - although our practice equipment isn't the best, we can walk in and get to work without needing to set up amps/drumkit/mics. Rehearsals are now more efficient and we get a LOT done. Not because we're working harder, but because we don't have the distractions that would keep us from working hard. Your working environment matters!So, I do think that investing in things like subs/lights/banner *will* increase your value, by helping you get out of your own way so you can work on woodshedding harmonies and stage presence. It's a package deal. The short answer to the OP is this: improve everything that you can! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 20, 2012 Members Share Posted December 20, 2012 Originally Posted by mstreck I want to weigh in on this... someone made a joke earlier about subs making you a better band by improving your harmonies, etc. IMHO, they were actually half-right. Speaking from experience, let me say that, in my mind, we are "slightly better than mediocre". We don't suck as much as some, but there are still a lot of bands that could eat us for breakfast. Still, we've come a long way since Day One and have a few gigs that other bands would kill for, so I think what I have to say may have some merit.As I look back on how we've progressed over the years, I can say that as our equipment got better, we did as well. Not because of the equipment - but because the less we had to worry about equipment, the more we could concentrate on improving harmonies, stage presence, etc. It is a result of having simple things like powered subs and tops that cut down our setup time, a reliable mixing board and FOH rack, a dedicated sound man, a dedicated light man, improving our stage monitor setup - those environmental things that minimize distractions and allow us to concentrate on the stuff that WE have control over when we set foot on that stage - stuff like our appearance, our harmonies, and our stage presence (I am still working on all three).It's like going out on a date and dressing in clothes that make you look good - you are the same person that you are in sloppy clothes, but it raises your confidence so that you can actually become a bigger and better version of yourself without worrying about how you look. Yes, the music matters, but aren't you going to work on that anyhow? If you're not, then you need to sit at home and play in your bedroom.The same goes for the practice room that I've put hours of time and lots of money into - although our practice equipment isn't the best, we can walk in and get to work without needing to set up amps/drumkit/mics. Rehearsals are now more efficient and we get a LOT done. Not because we're working harder, but because we don't have the distractions that would keep us from working hard. Your working environment matters!So, I do think that investing in things like subs/lights/banner *will* increase your value, by helping you get out of your own way so you can work on woodshedding harmonies and stage presence. It's a package deal. The short answer to the OP is this: improve everything that you can! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 20, 2012 Members Share Posted December 20, 2012 Originally Posted by mstreck I want to weigh in on this... someone made a joke earlier about subs making you a better band by improving your harmonies, etc. IMHO, they were actually half-right. Speaking from experience, let me say that, in my mind, we are "slightly better than mediocre". We don't suck as much as some, but there are still a lot of bands that could eat us for breakfast. Still, we've come a long way since Day One and have a few gigs that other bands would kill for, so I think what I have to say may have some merit.As I look back on how we've progressed over the years, I can say that as our equipment got better, we did as well. Not because of the equipment - but because the less we had to worry about equipment, the more we could concentrate on improving harmonies, stage presence, etc. It is a result of having simple things like powered subs and tops that cut down our setup time, a reliable mixing board and FOH rack, a dedicated sound man, a dedicated light man, improving our stage monitor setup - those environmental things that minimize distractions and allow us to concentrate on the stuff that WE have control over when we set foot on that stage - stuff like our appearance, our harmonies, and our stage presence (I am still working on all three).It's like going out on a date and dressing in clothes that make you look good - you are the same person that you are in sloppy clothes, but it raises your confidence so that you can actually become a bigger and better version of yourself without worrying about how you look. Yes, the music matters, but aren't you going to work on that anyhow? If you're not, then you need to sit at home and play in your bedroom.The same goes for the practice room that I've put hours of time and lots of money into - although our practice equipment isn't the best, we can walk in and get to work without needing to set up amps/drumkit/mics. Rehearsals are now more efficient and we get a LOT done. Not because we're working harder, but because we don't have the distractions that would keep us from working hard. Your working environment matters!So, I do think that investing in things like subs/lights/banner *will* increase your value, by helping you get out of your own way so you can work on woodshedding harmonies and stage presence. It's a package deal. The short answer to the OP is this: improve everything that you can! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SeniorBlues Posted December 20, 2012 Members Share Posted December 20, 2012 I think the point here is that it is possible to get sidetracked by an obsession with equipment upgrades. It happened with my old trio, where the guitar player was constantly buying this and readjusting that. It turned out to be an avoidance tactic. Conscious or subconscious I can't say, but we wasted a lot of time that should have been spent on music. It doesn't have to work like this, of course, but I know it can happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SeniorBlues Posted December 20, 2012 Members Share Posted December 20, 2012 I think the point here is that it is possible to get sidetracked by an obsession with equipment upgrades. It happened with my old trio, where the guitar player was constantly buying this and readjusting that. It turned out to be an avoidance tactic. Conscious or subconscious I can't say, but we wasted a lot of time that should have been spent on music. It doesn't have to work like this, of course, but I know it can happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 20, 2012 Members Share Posted December 20, 2012 Originally Posted by SeniorBlues I think the point here is that it is possible to get sidetracked by an obsession with equipment upgrades. It happened with my old trio, where the guitar player was constantly buying this and readjusting that. It turned out to be an avoidance tactic. Conscious or subconscious I can't say, but we wasted a lot of time that should have been spent on music.It doesn't have to work like this, of course, but I know it can happen. I've certainly seen that happen on an individual level, but never really on a group level. I've never known of a band that didn't rehearse because they were too busy trying to mess around with buying more and bigger PA systems, but I suppose it's probably happened somewhere.Good gear is important. And while I'd hate to a see a bad band that might never BE a good band wasting a lot of money on expensive gear they'll never fully utilize, money is just money and gear is just gear and if you can't use it someday you can sell it.And certainly I've facepalmed over seeing really lousy bands with AWESOME gear and thinking they were the {censored} because of it. But whatever. It's their money. The good gear isn't going to make them better or get them any further really. Much worse is seeing a good or even decent band being held back because their gear doesn't match the music they are putting through it. Or always trying to play catch-up with gear. If you can afford the good stuff; get it. Like Mike says, it might even inspire a band to work harder and, if nothing else, will make other parts of their lives much easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 20, 2012 Members Share Posted December 20, 2012 Originally Posted by SeniorBlues I think the point here is that it is possible to get sidetracked by an obsession with equipment upgrades. It happened with my old trio, where the guitar player was constantly buying this and readjusting that. It turned out to be an avoidance tactic. Conscious or subconscious I can't say, but we wasted a lot of time that should have been spent on music.It doesn't have to work like this, of course, but I know it can happen. I've certainly seen that happen on an individual level, but never really on a group level. I've never known of a band that didn't rehearse because they were too busy trying to mess around with buying more and bigger PA systems, but I suppose it's probably happened somewhere.Good gear is important. And while I'd hate to a see a bad band that might never BE a good band wasting a lot of money on expensive gear they'll never fully utilize, money is just money and gear is just gear and if you can't use it someday you can sell it.And certainly I've facepalmed over seeing really lousy bands with AWESOME gear and thinking they were the {censored} because of it. But whatever. It's their money. The good gear isn't going to make them better or get them any further really. Much worse is seeing a good or even decent band being held back because their gear doesn't match the music they are putting through it. Or always trying to play catch-up with gear. If you can afford the good stuff; get it. Like Mike says, it might even inspire a band to work harder and, if nothing else, will make other parts of their lives much easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members modulusman Posted December 21, 2012 Members Share Posted December 21, 2012 If you go back and read the OP he said he had money for upgrades. That is why I said subs. They may need to work on the band harmonies but unless he is going to do something lame and buy a harmonizer you can't buy harmonies you have to work on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members modulusman Posted December 21, 2012 Members Share Posted December 21, 2012 If you go back and read the OP he said he had money for upgrades. That is why I said subs. They may need to work on the band harmonies but unless he is going to do something lame and buy a harmonizer you can't buy harmonies you have to work on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TIMKEYS Posted December 21, 2012 Members Share Posted December 21, 2012 Originally Posted by modulusman If you go back and read the OP he said he had money for upgrades. That is why I said subs. They may need to work on the band harmonies but unless he is going to do something lame and buy a harmonizer you can't buy harmonies you have to work on it. That is a reasonable suggestion. Its not going to turn this band into a A room band or a top corp/ even band. Getting better as a band is going to do that. The subs as been said are just icing on the cake if they really know how to use them if the take them into a small room. You can get so impressed with the gear that you just end up too loud and shoot yourself in the foot. Too loud is a real buzz kill for a venue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TIMKEYS Posted December 21, 2012 Members Share Posted December 21, 2012 Originally Posted by modulusman If you go back and read the OP he said he had money for upgrades. That is why I said subs. They may need to work on the band harmonies but unless he is going to do something lame and buy a harmonizer you can't buy harmonies you have to work on it. That is a reasonable suggestion. Its not going to turn this band into a A room band or a top corp/ even band. Getting better as a band is going to do that. The subs as been said are just icing on the cake if they really know how to use them if the take them into a small room. You can get so impressed with the gear that you just end up too loud and shoot yourself in the foot. Too loud is a real buzz kill for a venue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted December 21, 2012 Members Share Posted December 21, 2012 Originally Posted by TIMKEYS That is a reasonable suggestion. Its not going to turn this band into a A room band or a top corp/ even band. Getting better as a band is going to do that. The subs as been said are just icing on the cake if they really know how to use them if the take them into a small room. You can get so impressed with the gear that you just end up too loud and shoot yourself in the foot. Too loud is a real buzz kill for a venue. but subs really shouldn't make you simply louder, if you are doing things correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted December 21, 2012 Members Share Posted December 21, 2012 Originally Posted by TIMKEYS That is a reasonable suggestion. Its not going to turn this band into a A room band or a top corp/ even band. Getting better as a band is going to do that. The subs as been said are just icing on the cake if they really know how to use them if the take them into a small room. You can get so impressed with the gear that you just end up too loud and shoot yourself in the foot. Too loud is a real buzz kill for a venue. but subs really shouldn't make you simply louder, if you are doing things correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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