What are some ways to improve the "value" of your band?

[tim_7string]

Originally Posted by roamingbard13

Thanks for all the advice -- the winter is time to think about this here. We play in a touristy area and the bars have a much higher budget for entertainment in the summer.

Couple of videos for those who are interested -- we are working a female vocalist in to the mix. She plays almost a full set of songs with us now. These are both in our smallest venue -- but we are their #1 band.



{censored}ty promo vid -- we are working on a better one. I asked for something much different than this, but we had technical issues with our board feed which caused some tension, and the videographer was working for free because they owed our drummer a favor. We'll pay for it next time.




And our first full-length show together:

My thoughts on the videos:

1st video: The female vocalist is pretty good, but I agree with other people that say the guy that is usually upfront in the middle in blue should settle down. He is fidgeting around as if the band was still setting up. That's something to do on your breaks or before the show, not during. Not only is it distracting, it comes off as disrespectful to her.

2nd video: Yeah, better sound is needed for the promo. It sounds way too loud in there with the audience nearly drowning out the band. The band needs to be the focus and part of doing that would be to get isolated tracks of the songs you are playing (as best as you can manage).

3rd video: You've come a long way, baby! I was actually turned off by the performances in this one. I'm glad you mentioned it as the first show. Sorry if I sound harsh. My band isn't always the best when we play live either, but the other videos seem more engaging to me. I did find it amusing to see the bass player looking over the singer's shoulder to see what chords he was playing on "Chicken Fried" haha!

[Vito Corleone]

Originally Posted by Mutha Goose

Timkeys: I can't speak for all club scenes, but I know there are many clubs in the northeast (from Maine to Maryland, out to Buffalo; I have spent MANY years playing in this area) that are large enough and that do pay very good money.

To the OP: I provide lighting and sound in my area.

A few of my clients hire me to get their feet into some of the larger clubs, especially for lighting. Often they raise their price to the club above what I charge them. This is easily justified as clubs tend to make more money when the entertainment has a proper light show (band, DJ, other...). The impact of a properly designed light show can be amazing! That said, lighting can quickly get to be very expensive and unwieldy if you want to make a decent impact. Avoid a few random fixtures running on sound-detection. It looks cheesy and DJ. There is nothing entertaining about this. You would be better off either going all out or very basic; not in between. I'm beginning to see more and more bands with their own light shows, but most just higher out for larger gigs.

However having enough PA for the gig is assumed. If you do not have a good system (and the know-how to use it) all bets are off. You will only sound as big as your system. If you want to be perceived as being bigger than life (which a show should be) you have to sound bigger than life. A kick sounds cool. A kick through a good sub properly used can be huge. You don't get lost in a tune played through a transistor radio the same way you can with a good system. If you're playing rock, this is a must. This is what drives the club.

However, all of the equipment in the world won't do {censored} if you can't back it up. Good equipment will make a good band HUGE and POWERFUL! ... the best equipment will only make a mediocre or {censored} band louder and brighter.

In the end, you have to sell beer. This is all a bar band is... alcohol drink salesmen; as far as the bar owner/manager is concerned. Do you consistently fill a room? Are your fans big drinkers? All of the above will help. If you're a good band, you can get the fans who will buy drinks. If you're driving that music loud and clean, your fans will have more fun and want to dance. This sells drinks! Add a light show and it becomes an event. This keeps people there longer, drives more dancing, and builds larger crowds... all results in more drinks sold...

So, if you're selling more drinks than the other bands, if you're selling enough drinks, you deserve a higher price. If you're not, you don't. For my band, when we raise our fee at a particular club, that club owner/manager knows we are a worth-while investment and we get what we are asking for. But we don't look to raise our fee unless we know we are earning it. For clubs somewhat close to each other, we try to keep our fees very close. Club owners talk to each other. If you're asking $500 at one club, but $1000 at the other.... you ain't gonna get anywhere close to that $1000 even if you deserve it at that club.

Nice post.

[Vito Corleone]

Originally Posted by Mutha Goose

Timkeys: I can't speak for all club scenes, but I know there are many clubs in the northeast (from Maine to Maryland, out to Buffalo; I have spent MANY years playing in this area) that are large enough and that do pay very good money.

To the OP: I provide lighting and sound in my area.

A few of my clients hire me to get their feet into some of the larger clubs, especially for lighting. Often they raise their price to the club above what I charge them. This is easily justified as clubs tend to make more money when the entertainment has a proper light show (band, DJ, other...). The impact of a properly designed light show can be amazing! That said, lighting can quickly get to be very expensive and unwieldy if you want to make a decent impact. Avoid a few random fixtures running on sound-detection. It looks cheesy and DJ. There is nothing entertaining about this. You would be better off either going all out or very basic; not in between. I'm beginning to see more and more bands with their own light shows, but most just higher out for larger gigs.

However having enough PA for the gig is assumed. If you do not have a good system (and the know-how to use it) all bets are off. You will only sound as big as your system. If you want to be perceived as being bigger than life (which a show should be) you have to sound bigger than life. A kick sounds cool. A kick through a good sub properly used can be huge. You don't get lost in a tune played through a transistor radio the same way you can with a good system. If you're playing rock, this is a must. This is what drives the club.

However, all of the equipment in the world won't do {censored} if you can't back it up. Good equipment will make a good band HUGE and POWERFUL! ... the best equipment will only make a mediocre or {censored} band louder and brighter.

In the end, you have to sell beer. This is all a bar band is... alcohol drink salesmen; as far as the bar owner/manager is concerned. Do you consistently fill a room? Are your fans big drinkers? All of the above will help. If you're a good band, you can get the fans who will buy drinks. If you're driving that music loud and clean, your fans will have more fun and want to dance. This sells drinks! Add a light show and it becomes an event. This keeps people there longer, drives more dancing, and builds larger crowds... all results in more drinks sold...

So, if you're selling more drinks than the other bands, if you're selling enough drinks, you deserve a higher price. If you're not, you don't. For my band, when we raise our fee at a particular club, that club owner/manager knows we are a worth-while investment and we get what we are asking for. But we don't look to raise our fee unless we know we are earning it. For clubs somewhat close to each other, we try to keep our fees very close. Club owners talk to each other. If you're asking $500 at one club, but $1000 at the other.... you ain't gonna get anywhere close to that $1000 even if you deserve it at that club.

Nice post.

[mstreck]

 

Originally Posted by Mutha Goose

If you're asking $500 at one club, but $1000 at the other.... you ain't gonna get anywhere close to that $1000 even if you deserve it at that club.

 

[mstreck]

 

Originally Posted by Mutha Goose

If you're asking $500 at one club, but $1000 at the other.... you ain't gonna get anywhere close to that $1000 even if you deserve it at that club.

 

[roamingbard13]

Thanks for all of the feedback!

The most recent of these videos is about 5 months old. Our gigs have been steady since then and I feel like we have been making strides every time we play together. A couple of things I'd like address and may be helpful for further discussion and feedback...

1. I'm not the lead singer -- I am the other guitar player. I have my own issues for sure, though! I will share the comments that you have all made with our singer. I can't remember, but I suspect we may have begun playing Valerie without him being set in order to try to keep the music moving. Either way, I think the comments there are spot on and it is something to look at.

2. Our initial bass player quit right before we started gigging. Our current player learned our entire setlist (literally from soup to nuts) in about a week. While he is extremely proficient, he is a convert from the blues and ska original scene in our area and this is his first cover band. It doesn't shock me that the lines he plays are not exactly as the recordings, and I'm not sure that the average person in the audiecne would know/care.

3. The venue the first two video were taken in is extremely small...capacity is probably around 60 people, and that's very uncomfortable. We do not mic anything there because there is not space, and it is the one room that we carry a very minimalist PA to because there is literally no room for anything more. Typically, we have everything mic'd into Yamaha Club 15 inch mains. Not perfect, but it's what we could afford when we started.


Believe it or not, I think adding subs could help us anyways -- it's a lot easier to feel the groove when you can feel the music.

I think that continued practice, working on showmanship, and working on music choices will add to our performances. But I don't think we are so far off from being a proficient band to "keep it to the woodshed". (and clearly the places that are rebooking us don't think so either...)

[roamingbard13]

Thanks for all of the feedback!

The most recent of these videos is about 5 months old. Our gigs have been steady since then and I feel like we have been making strides every time we play together. A couple of things I'd like address and may be helpful for further discussion and feedback...

1. I'm not the lead singer -- I am the other guitar player. I have my own issues for sure, though! I will share the comments that you have all made with our singer. I can't remember, but I suspect we may have begun playing Valerie without him being set in order to try to keep the music moving. Either way, I think the comments there are spot on and it is something to look at.

2. Our initial bass player quit right before we started gigging. Our current player learned our entire setlist (literally from soup to nuts) in about a week. While he is extremely proficient, he is a convert from the blues and ska original scene in our area and this is his first cover band. It doesn't shock me that the lines he plays are not exactly as the recordings, and I'm not sure that the average person in the audiecne would know/care.

3. The venue the first two video were taken in is extremely small...capacity is probably around 60 people, and that's very uncomfortable. We do not mic anything there because there is not space, and it is the one room that we carry a very minimalist PA to because there is literally no room for anything more. Typically, we have everything mic'd into Yamaha Club 15 inch mains. Not perfect, but it's what we could afford when we started.


Believe it or not, I think adding subs could help us anyways -- it's a lot easier to feel the groove when you can feel the music.

I think that continued practice, working on showmanship, and working on music choices will add to our performances. But I don't think we are so far off from being a proficient band to "keep it to the woodshed". (and clearly the places that are rebooking us don't think so either...)

[Vito Corleone]

Wow, what a thread!

Yes, all the lights, PA and attention to detail isn't going to matter if the band isn't good. Harmonies? Depends on the song/material of course. For Metallica-type stuff, they aren't really necessary. For Amy Winehouse-type stuff, they can be the difference between sounding pro and sound amateur.

Subs? A must for a band playing the type of material you're playing. You can't engage the crowd on rock or dance stuff unless they can feel it a bit. And the fact the videos were recorded with a cheap camcorder shouldn't really matter. We record our shows all the time with a cheapy recorder and the kick and bass come through just fine.

The girl sounds pretty good, and makes your band look better as well. But you have to remember that when you're on stage, you're on stage. The whole fiddling-around-while-she-was-singing thing was not just distracting, but a great example of really poor showmanship. If you think people are only going to be watching her and not that guy because she's the one singing and he's not part of the song, you're wrong. In fact, they might end up watching him more.

Good luck and that's great you're taking your band seriously enough to even ask about this stuff. And all those 'little things' are things that will help your band improve its value whether you're playing $200 or $2000 gigs.

[Vito Corleone]

Wow, what a thread!

Yes, all the lights, PA and attention to detail isn't going to matter if the band isn't good. Harmonies? Depends on the song/material of course. For Metallica-type stuff, they aren't really necessary. For Amy Winehouse-type stuff, they can be the difference between sounding pro and sound amateur.

Subs? A must for a band playing the type of material you're playing. You can't engage the crowd on rock or dance stuff unless they can feel it a bit. And the fact the videos were recorded with a cheap camcorder shouldn't really matter. We record our shows all the time with a cheapy recorder and the kick and bass come through just fine.

The girl sounds pretty good, and makes your band look better as well. But you have to remember that when you're on stage, you're on stage. The whole fiddling-around-while-she-was-singing thing was not just distracting, but a great example of really poor showmanship. If you think people are only going to be watching her and not that guy because she's the one singing and he's not part of the song, you're wrong. In fact, they might end up watching him more.

Good luck and that's great you're taking your band seriously enough to even ask about this stuff. And all those 'little things' are things that will help your band improve its value whether you're playing $200 or $2000 gigs.

[Lee Knight]

BTW... I totally agree that a balanced PA is essential, and the 15" and horn on a stick ain't balanced for a rock/dance band. And that "subs" is the solution. I just crack up when I see it tossed around as some sort of panacea for a bar band. Believe it or not, there are some AWESOME bands in my town that play little bars without subs. And they sound great and the dancers love them.

But as an order of concern, subs seemed to be a little back in the order of that list. Sure, get some "subs". But it takes a lot more than "subs" to rile a crowd up.

And BTW, you guys sound like you are on your way. But ask that guy to lose the headband. Nothing says "bar" more that a headband. Or is it just me?

[Lee Knight]

BTW... I totally agree that a balanced PA is essential, and the 15" and horn on a stick ain't balanced for a rock/dance band. And that "subs" is the solution. I just crack up when I see it tossed around as some sort of panacea for a bar band. Believe it or not, there are some AWESOME bands in my town that play little bars without subs. And they sound great and the dancers love them.

But as an order of concern, subs seemed to be a little back in the order of that list. Sure, get some "subs". But it takes a lot more than "subs" to rile a crowd up.

And BTW, you guys sound like you are on your way. But ask that guy to lose the headband. Nothing says "bar" more that a headband. Or is it just me?

[guitarguy19]

Originally Posted by Mutha Goose

If you're asking $500 at one club, but $1000 at the other.... you ain't gonna get anywhere close to that $1000 even if you deserve it at that club.

I disagree with this somewhat...because it depends on exactly what you're providing at said club, how long you're playing for, etc.

Example 1: A 3 hr gig where we bring absolutely minimalist backline, even down to a paired down 2 piece drum kit (no toms). No lights. No PA. 3x40 min sets with 2 half hour breaks. Meals included...and nice meals...better than bar food. Very restauranty but extremely fun crowds. 1/2 hr setup and 20 minute teardown. Only gig where we don't even use a soundman. $550.

Example 2: Club across town about 1 hr away, 4 hr gig, DJ between sets, lights, subs and whole PA, etc. $1200.

So it depends what you're providing. Now if the clubs are right next to each other and you're providing the same service/equipment/etc.......well then yeah.

EDIT: P.S. While I think adding a quality PA (with subs) was absolutely the best equipment investment we've made to date...we PACK the dance floor at Example 1 club and we're playing thru 15" JBL PRX mains (no subs). Hence them offerring us $1200 for NYE for the same show...although it was short notice so we had to turn it down...which was a bummer. Won't make $1200 any easier than that.

[guitarguy19]

Originally Posted by Mutha Goose

If you're asking $500 at one club, but $1000 at the other.... you ain't gonna get anywhere close to that $1000 even if you deserve it at that club.

I disagree with this somewhat...because it depends on exactly what you're providing at said club, how long you're playing for, etc.

Example 1: A 3 hr gig where we bring absolutely minimalist backline, even down to a paired down 2 piece drum kit (no toms). No lights. No PA. 3x40 min sets with 2 half hour breaks. Meals included...and nice meals...better than bar food. Very restauranty but extremely fun crowds. 1/2 hr setup and 20 minute teardown. Only gig where we don't even use a soundman. $550.

Example 2: Club across town about 1 hr away, 4 hr gig, DJ between sets, lights, subs and whole PA, etc. $1200.

So it depends what you're providing. Now if the clubs are right next to each other and you're providing the same service/equipment/etc.......well then yeah.

EDIT: P.S. While I think adding a quality PA (with subs) was absolutely the best equipment investment we've made to date...we PACK the dance floor at Example 1 club and we're playing thru 15" JBL PRX mains (no subs). Hence them offerring us $1200 for NYE for the same show...although it was short notice so we had to turn it down...which was a bummer. Won't make $1200 any easier than that.

[Vito Corleone]

Originally Posted by Lee Knight

BTW... I totally agree that a balanced PA is essential, and the 15" and horn on a stick ain't balanced for a rock/dance band. And that "subs" is the solution. I just crack up when I see it tossed around as some sort of panacea for a bar band. Believe it or not, there are some AWESOME bands in my town that play little bars without subs. And they sound great and the dancers love them.

But as an order of concern, subs seemed to be a little back in the order of that list. Sure, get some "subs". But it takes a lot more than "subs" to rile a crowd up.

I'm sure there are some bands that pack dance floors in some venues with no subs. Some bands can do that with no bass guitar as well. Subs aren't a panacea for anything, but they are pretty much essential in this day and age. Just because some bands are good enough to be great in almost any configuration, I don't think that means that most bands just starting out should be ignoring the basics.

You need the right gear for the job. And while it's very true that there's much more involved in packing a dance floor or sounding great than just adding subs, a proper PA will help make all that other work that much easier.

And BTW, you guys sound like you are on your way. But ask that guy to lose the headband. Nothing says "bar" more that a headband. Or is it just me?

I was thinking it was so passe that maybe it was back-in-style again and I just hadn't noticed yet....

[Vito Corleone]

Originally Posted by Lee Knight

BTW... I totally agree that a balanced PA is essential, and the 15" and horn on a stick ain't balanced for a rock/dance band. And that "subs" is the solution. I just crack up when I see it tossed around as some sort of panacea for a bar band. Believe it or not, there are some AWESOME bands in my town that play little bars without subs. And they sound great and the dancers love them.

But as an order of concern, subs seemed to be a little back in the order of that list. Sure, get some "subs". But it takes a lot more than "subs" to rile a crowd up.

I'm sure there are some bands that pack dance floors in some venues with no subs. Some bands can do that with no bass guitar as well. Subs aren't a panacea for anything, but they are pretty much essential in this day and age. Just because some bands are good enough to be great in almost any configuration, I don't think that means that most bands just starting out should be ignoring the basics.

You need the right gear for the job. And while it's very true that there's much more involved in packing a dance floor or sounding great than just adding subs, a proper PA will help make all that other work that much easier.

And BTW, you guys sound like you are on your way. But ask that guy to lose the headband. Nothing says "bar" more that a headband. Or is it just me?

I was thinking it was so passe that maybe it was back-in-style again and I just hadn't noticed yet....

[Lee Knight]

[Lee Knight]

[Vito Corleone]

[Vito Corleone]

[Lee Knight]

Ralph Macchio could totally kick Mike Reno's ass.

[Vito Corleone]

I gotta do it my way....or no way at allllllll....

[FitchFY]

Originally Posted by roamingbard13

What are the most "value-added" things we can do? Adding subs? Lights? A banner? OR -- do we raise our asking price and hire out sound and lights?

1.) Get a banner: People need to know the name of your band so they can follow you. Go to www.eSigns.com and drop $50-100 on their big vinyl banners! I used one for years and they're great.

2.) Get some semblance of lights: You don't NEED a light guy (sure it helps), but even a few well placed cans and LED side fills will separate you from the chump bands in the area. Just don't leave them set on "seizure" all night.

3.) Have a quality PA: Sure, having subs is nice, but those seeing you need it... well, I challenge you with my $600-800 guarantee 4 piece bar hard rock band that booked any venue any time we wanted. Without subs. Well-tuned gear, well-tuned PA. It worked very well. But yes, having subs DOES fill your sound nicer.
SIDE NOTE: As you up your PA, you up your own sound requirements. Once your drummer has to start micing up all his drums at each gig to still be heard, you'll see your cost/profit ration start to dip. Watch this cost/profit ratio like a hawk and know what YOUR GOAL is for the band, not what Harmony-Central forums tells you.

4.) Have everyone lose 10 pounds: Okay, sort of a joke, as I haven't watched your videos, but it's a rule of thumb, especially in rock music. Want a succesful 90s-today rock cover band? Look and be the part. Which means being in shape. And preferably not "keg" as that shape.

5.) Make a fan base of hot girls: Bars appreciate it, guys buy more drinks when hot girls are there, etc. If you're in a bar band, the best thing you can do is focus your attention (friendly, not banging) (well, bang if you can) on the girls so they keep coming back. The guys will then stay.

[IsildursBane]

Originally Posted by TIMKEYS

Thanks for putting up the vids. I think you guys sound best with the girl in the band.

I wholeheartedly disagree. She's noticeably weaker than the dude in the red shirt. She can probably impress people who think that throaty=good, but to anyone who knows what a singer is supposed to sound like, she sounds like any other chick singing karaoke with lousy pitch and too much vibrato.

The dude OTOH, while not an amazing powerhouse of a singer, has good pitch, confidence, and a pleasant voice.

Also, the audio on those videos is atrocious. Don't use them for promo purposes. I'm listening on $400 headphones and literally can't understand anything I'm listening to. I had to hunt for a spot where I could even make out the vocals. I know you had some issues, and that's fine, but get that corrected ASAP. This isn't making your band look good.

-Dan.

[Potts]

 

Originally Posted by Lee Knight

But ask that guy to lose the headband. Nothing says "bar" more that a headband. Or is it just me?

 

No it's not just you. It looks like the bottom of a t-shirt

[TIMKEYS]

Originally Posted by IsildursBane

I wholeheartedly disagree. She's noticeably weaker than the dude in the red shirt. She can probably impress people who think that throaty=good, but to anyone who knows what a singer is supposed to sound like, she sounds like any other chick singing karaoke with lousy pitch and too much vibrato.

The dude OTOH, while not an amazing powerhouse of a singer, has good pitch, confidence, and a pleasant voice.

Also, the audio on those videos is atrocious. Don't use them for promo purposes. I'm listening on $400 headphones and literally can't understand anything I'm listening to. I had to hunt for a spot where I could even make out the vocals. I know you had some issues, and that's fine, but get that corrected ASAP. This isn't making your band look good.

-Dan.

Interesting ,, I felt the guy in the red shirt had some pitch issues and the voice seemed a tad dull like he was singing mostly out his mouth and not from his diaphram. She just seemed like the needed more experience but had more timbre and sang from the diaphram and had more potential to put passion in her vocals.