What are some ways to improve the "value" of your band?

[Vito Corleone]

Subs don't really complicate a set up much and have nothing to do with rehearsal since most bands are only going to use them at gigs. They might slow down the setup time at a gig a bit--but depending on your setup, even that's not necessarily true.

My wife has a great eye for photography and can take a much better picture with an iPhone or an instamatic than I ever could with the most advanced camera. And cameras are a bit different I suppose because there's the learning-how-to-use the damned thing process first that isn't necessarily true with musical equipment. But I don't think anyone ever DIDN'T become a concert pianist because they started out learning to play on a Steinway grand rather than a cheap upright.

I'm reminded of visiting a friend of mine recently who's a really good drummer and a bit of gear-hound. Has a bunch of really nice, expensive kits. He's telling me he wants to learn to play guitar and has started taking some lessons and proceeds to pull out a top-of-the-line Taylor and Fender Strat. I laugh to myself a bit thinking these guitars are so much nicer than the junk I gig with regularly. And I comment "wow, these are some REALLY nice guitars! Especially for just starting out!" He says "do you think I should have gotten something else? My teacher told me that it's beter to start out with good gear, so I got these..." "No," I said "I'm sure these will be just fine. But yeah...REALLY nice, dude!"

Bottom line---he's as dedicated to learning to play as he's gonna be. That's what's in his heart, not in his gear. Will those nice guitars make him MORE inspired to practice harder? Maybe. Maybe not. But I certainly don't see how they could SLOW DOWN his progress. Plus, he's got a lot of money to spend and likes nice stuff. So why not?

[SeniorBlues]

I agree about the positive reenforcement from a good piano as opposed to an old Trasch & Junkett upright. . . . . but I'm obviously biased because I'd rather service a nice instrument.

The issue my guitar player had was trying to do multi-track recordings of rehearsals. . . . .

[SeniorBlues]

I agree about the positive reenforcement from a good piano as opposed to an old Trasch & Junkett upright. . . . . but I'm obviously biased because I'd rather service a nice instrument.

The issue my guitar player had was trying to do multi-track recordings of rehearsals. . . . .

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by SeniorBlues

The issue my guitar player had was trying to do multi-track recordings of rehearsals. . . . .

 

Well, there are also going to be "those" guys, for sure. We've all played with them. Someone who's the type to let the gear-obsession get in the way of their playing/performance is gonna be that type of person regardless of whether you recommend they buy certain gear or not.

But as a general rule, I just don't see how it can be a distraction. ESPECIALLY when talking about something as impersonal as subs on the PA. "Dude---let's not practice this week...we'll just crank up the subs at the next gig an extra notch and call it good! We don't need to be tight, we just need to RUMBLE! Fire up another doob!"

I GUESS there might be those types of bands out there....but again, that band isn't gonna practice regardless. They'd just find some other excuse to get stoned instead.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by SeniorBlues

The issue my guitar player had was trying to do multi-track recordings of rehearsals. . . . .

 

Well, there are also going to be "those" guys, for sure. We've all played with them. Someone who's the type to let the gear-obsession get in the way of their playing/performance is gonna be that type of person regardless of whether you recommend they buy certain gear or not.

But as a general rule, I just don't see how it can be a distraction. ESPECIALLY when talking about something as impersonal as subs on the PA. "Dude---let's not practice this week...we'll just crank up the subs at the next gig an extra notch and call it good! We don't need to be tight, we just need to RUMBLE! Fire up another doob!"

I GUESS there might be those types of bands out there....but again, that band isn't gonna practice regardless. They'd just find some other excuse to get stoned instead.

[RobRoy]

 

Originally Posted by guido61

My wife has a great eye for photography and can take a much better picture with an iPhone or an instamatic than I ever could with the most advanced camera. And cameras are a bit different I suppose because there's the learning-how-to-use the damned thing process first that isn't necessarily true with musical equipment.

 

My buddy who buys and sells Leica glass and uses it on his Panasonic GF1 puts it this way: What is the best camera to use? The one you have on you.

Some of my best shots are taken with my phone.

BTW, regarding rehearsals, we just started using a piece of equipment at rehearsals that completely changed our world. The vocals are by far easier to tighten up and my longstanding concern about ear damage at rehearsals is now a non-issue. We use a Jam hub. I'll never go back, except when the purpose is to tweak the sound system for live use.

[RobRoy]

 

Originally Posted by guido61

My wife has a great eye for photography and can take a much better picture with an iPhone or an instamatic than I ever could with the most advanced camera. And cameras are a bit different I suppose because there's the learning-how-to-use the damned thing process first that isn't necessarily true with musical equipment.

 

My buddy who buys and sells Leica glass and uses it on his Panasonic GF1 puts it this way: What is the best camera to use? The one you have on you.

Some of my best shots are taken with my phone.

BTW, regarding rehearsals, we just started using a piece of equipment at rehearsals that completely changed our world. The vocals are by far easier to tighten up and my longstanding concern about ear damage at rehearsals is now a non-issue. We use a Jam hub. I'll never go back, except when the purpose is to tweak the sound system for live use.

[GtrGeorge!]

Geez,LOUISE!! I havent at this thread in a while and by now its an ENCYCLOPEDIA!!!

I skimmed the threads here and ..um, what can I say without being mean....

I guess I stand by my original post..the most important stuff isnt gear. Its musicianship...which costs nothing but self inspection and honest hard work. Go deeper...listen to your recordings, find out what ya wanna put forward, isolate whats gonna make that happen and go for it....if thats fixing the vocals: great...if thats changing the material: do that. Follow your own recipe and instincts, dont be afraid to seriously try other's opinions and get on with it. It seems yopu are having a good time, and others seem to like it...so thats starting from a really good place. -GtrGeorge

[GtrGeorge!]

Geez,LOUISE!! I havent at this thread in a while and by now its an ENCYCLOPEDIA!!!

I skimmed the threads here and ..um, what can I say without being mean....

I guess I stand by my original post..the most important stuff isnt gear. Its musicianship...which costs nothing but self inspection and honest hard work. Go deeper...listen to your recordings, find out what ya wanna put forward, isolate whats gonna make that happen and go for it....if thats fixing the vocals: great...if thats changing the material: do that. Follow your own recipe and instincts, dont be afraid to seriously try other's opinions and get on with it. It seems yopu are having a good time, and others seem to like it...so thats starting from a really good place. -GtrGeorge

[Lee Knight]

 

Originally Posted by guido61

Well, that's just dumb.

 

You are not the first to accuse me of saying dumb things.

[Lee Knight]

 

Originally Posted by RobRoy

BTW, regarding rehearsals, we just started using a piece of equipment at rehearsals that completely changed our world. The vocals are by far easier to tighten up and my longstanding concern about ear damage at rehearsals is now a non-issue. We use a Jam hub. I'll never go back, except when the purpose is to tweak the sound system for live use.

 

bingo!!! Don't buy subs, buy a Jam Hub. If the only way to properly answer the OP's question is by throwing money at it, then buy a Jam Hub. Then work on everybody's time. And on everybody's singing. Work on each player playing a role that adds up to a good arrangement and band sound. Not as in PA "sound", but as in the sound that you make as a band. Your playing. You time as a singer. You ability to fill your role without detracting from the other.

And your TIME!!!

Everybody's talking about how important subs are (and they are) because modern music relys on that beat. Yep, true. And that beat requires good time. And most of what I've heard of the "party bands" around here lack it.* Combine good solid, agressive time with some subs and you'll kill. I AGREE! But buy some subs and puff up your floppy, loosly played low end, with your singer singing across the beat and... book another wedding gig! YeeHaw!

* If I read one more time how either you got it or you don't, I'm going to gack.

[SpaceNorman]

 

Originally Posted by Lee Knight

Combine good solid, agressive time with some subs and you'll kill. I AGREE! But buy some subs and puff up your floppy, loosly played low end, with your singer singing across the beat and... book another wedding gig! YeeHaw!

 

I'm struggling to understand why you appear to feel you get it - and the rest of us don't on this topic. The OP's question was an open ended "how can I improve the value of my band". There have been LOTS of suggestions made in the course of this thread.

Some have recommended upgrading equipment (upgrading PA, adding lights, etc.).

Some have recommended upgrading stage wear and working on stage presence.

Some have recommended working on improving the quality of the musical performance itself.

There hasn't been a demand that we collective "pick one" answer to the OP's question. The reality is that properly implemented - every one of these suggestions would increase the value of the OP's band.

Why is it that your response to every suggestion that isn't solely focused on the OP's music performance is to ridicule the suggestion with a sarcasm laced post? I've yet to see a post in this thread that has suggested that the OP ignore the quality of his band's musical performance in favor of equipment purchases.

It seems to me that most of the folks who have posted in this thread recognize that improving a band's musical performance improves the value of the band. Why is it that YOU are either unwilling or unable to recognize that some of these other suggestions can help increase the value of the band as well?

Lee - there are millions of stellar musicians sitting at home playing to their wives, girl friends, dogs and cats - whining about how it's all about the music. Bull{censored}. It's the bands that find a way to deliver the whole package (musicianship, production and marketing) that are successful.

[Lee Knight]

Yeah well... I myself am sarcasm laced. But my intent is pure. I don't believe I have the ONE VISION. But I do feel there is a lot of really bad advice here. Very misleading stuff.

But for you to say I don't "recognize that some of these other suggestions can help increase the value of the band as well" would be you missing my point. I keep saying that subs are important. I LOVE THE SOUND OF A FAT PA.

Norm, if you wish to choose sides, whatever. If you see my point as weightless, fine. I kinda think you don't though. Maybe it's my "style"? Whatever. My intent is pure. The OP's band in their video look really good. To me, they show a promise that a lot of the more established bands around here could envy. They show the beginnings of it. I suggest they stick with that for a while. But... I gather the allure of "the stage and spotlight" and a "paycheck" might be tempting.

So we'll get subs and and a banner and we'll beef up our lighting and...

Am I sarcastic about that ^^^. Yes. Because music around here seems to be largely reduced to the art of running a small business. What we end up with then is a pretty store front and sub par merch inside. And that's fine, but if that's what you really want, I suggest a change to the forum's name.

COVER BAND BUSINESS 101

Then I 'll be sure to stay away. Problem solved!

[SpaceNorman]

Lee,

Maybe my struggle in understanding where you're coming from stems from comments like I point out below:

In one breath, you make a statement like this (which I think is "sarcasm free"):

 

Originally Posted by Lee Knight

I keep saying that subs are important. I LOVE THE SOUND OF A FAT PA.

 

In the next breath, you make a statement like this (which you state is intended to be very sarcastic):

 

Originally Posted by Lee Knight

So we'll get subs and and a banner and we'll beef up our lighting and...

 

Lee - nobody has suggested that the OP go purchase subs, lights, a new stage wardrobe (or anything else for that matter) - AND ignore putting time and effort into improving his band's musicianship and musical performance.

As others have pointed out - these steps can be taken concurrently. If a band has the financial resources and the desire to upgrade, investing in subs, banners, lights, stage wardrobe - WILL increase the value of virutally any band.

Obviously subs, banners, lights and stage wardrobe will only take a {censored}ty band so far ... but put two bands of equal musical quality side by side - and the one who's successfully implemented quality PA, banners, lights and stage wardrobe - will be far more successful in the market than the one that hasn't invested in their complete package.

I want to speak to your comments about "music around here seems to be largely reduced to the art of running a small business" - but I'll do that in a seperate response.

[SpaceNorman]

 

Originally Posted by Lee Knight

...music around here seems to be largely reduced to the art of running a small business. What we end up with then is a pretty store front and sub par merch inside. And that's fine, but if that's what you really want, I suggest a change to the forum's name - COVER BAND BUSINESS 101...

 

I've read statements like this on numerous occasions here on BSWTB. The last thread that I recall focusing on this issue was a couple of months ago. It turned into a dozen or so pages worth of posts and ended up with Sventkg sulking off all butthurt.

Honestly, I don't see what the problem is. Sure, there are lots of discussions related to band business on the forum - and rightly so. One of my primary reasons for frequenting this forum is to see what others are doing with their bands. I want to read about how others are handling their "production" challenges. I want to read about how others are marketing their bands. These are topics that I can read about in a medium such as the forum. Sometimes what I read simply helps me to validate that the things I'm concerned about are concerns for everybody else - and that my thoughts on those issues are consistent with the group. Sometimes what I read provides me with an "aha!" moment - and I come away with a new perspective. This is all good.

While I'm not opposed to discussions that are purely focused on the music itself - I'll be blunt and state that it's not why I frequent this forum. It's not a medium that I feel lends itself to learning much that is purely musical from. Text discussions about playing in time, singing, crafting parts, etc. - simply don't provide me with much value.

I'm curious ... you apparently feel that as a forum, we're missing something. What do YOU think we need to be talking about in lieu of the conversations that we typically see on here today?

[BEMUSofNthAmrca]

 

Originally Posted by Lee Knight

Yeah well... I myself am sarcasm laced. But my intent is pure. I don't believe I have the ONE VISION. But I do feel there is a lot of really bad advice here. Very misleading stuff.

But for you to say I don't "recognize that some of these other suggestions can help increase the value of the band as well" would be you missing my point. I keep saying that subs are important. I LOVE THE SOUND OF A FAT PA.

Norm, if you wish to choose sides, whatever. If you see my point as weightless, fine. I kinda think you don't though. Maybe it's my "style"? Whatever. My intent is pure. The OP's band in their video look really good. To me, they show a promise that a lot of the more established bands around here could envy. They show the beginnings of it. I suggest they stick with that for a while. But... I gather the allure of "the stage and spotlight" and a "paycheck" might be tempting.

So we'll get subs and and a banner and we'll beef up our lighting and...

Am I sarcastic about that ^^^. Yes. Because music around here seems to be largely reduced to the art of running a small business. What we end up with then is a pretty store front and sub par merch inside. And that's fine, but if that's what you really want, I suggest a change to the forum's name.

COVER BAND BUSINESS 101

Then I 'll be sure to stay away. Problem solved!

 

Great post.

[BEMUSofNthAmrca]

 

Originally Posted by SpaceNorman

I've read statements like this on numerous occasions here on BSWTB. The last thread that I recall focusing on this issue was a couple of months ago. It turned into a dozen or so pages worth of posts and ended up with Sventkg sulking off all butthurt.

Honestly, I don't see what the problem is. Sure, there are lots of discussions related to band business on the forum - and rightly so. One of my primary reasons for frequenting this forum is to see what others are doing with their bands. I want to read about how others are handling their "production" challenges. I want to read about how others are marketing their bands. These are topics that I can read about in a medium such as the forum. Sometimes what I read simply helps me to validate that the things I'm concerned about are concerns for everybody else - and that my thoughts on those issues are consistent with the group. Sometimes what I read provides me with an "aha!" moment - and I come away with a new perspective. This is all good.

While I'm not opposed to discussions that are purely focused on the music itself - I'll be blunt and state that it's not why I frequent this forum. It's not a medium that I feel lends itself to learning much that is purely musical from. Text discussions about playing in time, singing, crafting parts, etc. - simply don't provide me with much value.

I'm curious ... you apparently feel that as a forum, we're missing something. What do YOU think we need to be talking about in lieu of the conversations that we typically see on here today?

 

Maybe Lee believes that the music is the most important aspect of a band, and that getting caught up in the business side is part of an ongoing problem in the music industry today.

I applaud Lee for his refreshing point of view. Put out a good product in the first place (the music) and everything else comes after.

[SpaceNorman]

 

Originally Posted by BEMUSofNthAmrca

Maybe Lee believes that the music is the most important aspect of a band, and that getting caught up in the business side is part of an ongoing problem in the music industry today.

I applaud Lee for his refreshing point of view. Put out a good product in the first place (the music) and everything else comes after.

 

Can you point to any recent posts where somebody has suggested "f*ck the music! It's all about the business side of the equation!". I'm of the opinion that virtually every musician out there will readily acknowledge and agree that music IS the most important aspect of a band. I certainly can't recall ever having seen a post from anybody suggesting otherwise. Staking out a position as a defender of the music is like taking a stand for Mom and apple pie .... who's arguing that the music isn't important?

I'm of the opinion that each and every one forumite who touches their instruments - is working on improving their musicianship to the extent that they can. Aside from telling them that the "music is the most import part" - what conversations are you suggesting we need to be having in order to further that development?

[Lee Knight]

 

Originally Posted by SpaceNorman

Can you point to any recent posts where somebody has suggested "f*ck the music! It's all about the business side of the equation!". I'm of the opinion that virtually every musician out there will readily acknowledge and agree that music IS the most important aspect of a band. I certainly can't recall ever having seen a post from anybody suggesting otherwise. Staking out a position as a defender of the music is like taking a stand for Mom and apple pie .... who's arguing that the music isn't important?

I'm of the opinion that each and every one forumite who touches their instruments - is working on improving their musicianship to the extent that they can. Aside from telling them that the "music is the most import part" - what conversations are you suggesting we need to be having in order to further that development?

 

I don't need a post stating that music isn't the most important thing to know it isn't to many here. All it takes is a swing by their website and a quick listen to the top 40 mock-ups to realize the bar is low.

So, sorry if it offends but, the idea of buying a Jam Hub is a pretty good freaking idea. Who cares what people say, Norm? Of course nobody here is saying music isn't important. That wouldn't be a very stylish stance. What I hear is, "Music comes first! That's a given!"

But, no it isn't. It isn't a given.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by Lee Knight

So, sorry if it offends but, the idea of buying a Jam Hub is a pretty good freaking idea.

 

But, again, isn't an either/or proposition. No one is offended by the suggestion of a Jam Hub. The only one being offensive here, really, is you. The problem with your stance---and whether you intend it this way or not, I don't know---but it comes across with the snobbish attitude that unless any band has first achieved X-level of musicianship, then they shouldn't even be IN the 'business' of playing live, let alone discussing the subtle details of the business end of things. And you seem most concerned about the just-starting-out guys understand this point.

But as pretty much anyone in this business knows, whether you're playing covers or originals or both, you learn about all ends of the business and improve on all of them pretty much simutaneously. Who here didn't start out gigging long before we probably had any musical 'right' to be doing so? You start out at the bottom and you move up the ladder--gig wise, gear wise and musicianship wise. And progress happens in fits and starts and leap-frogging. Some bands are 'better' than their gear and their gigs, some others are 'beneath' it. And maybe in a year or two that reverses for whatever reason.

The idea that there is some sort of protocol or order to this stuff is silly. Every musician and band follows a different path. All we can do in a forum like this is offer suggestions and share war-stories about what did or did not work for any of us. If people can make use of the advice--great. If they can't, that's fine too. Find another post or forum or board that is more applicable.

But as has been said many times, this particular forum IS the "gigging band business" forum. The only one on this particular board and one of the few anywhere, that I'm aware of. Sure, talk about gigging will always involve talking about playing and musicianship, to some degree, but for anybody to be somehow offended that so much of this discussion here is about the business end of things is patently absurd. It'd be like me going over the songwriting forum and bitching thing everybody talks way too much about lyrics because unless you've got your melody and chords-changes happening first, the lyrics don't mean {censored}.

So yeah, this is the place to discuss subs and monitors and contracts and clothing and lights and projectors and letting girls up on stage and which latest pop song fills the dance floor and plastic {censored}ing blow up guitars. And yes, the music DOES come first. Whether the music is to your personal liking or not. And whether it's taken for granted here sometimes or not as part of the conversation.

[SpaceNorman]

 

Originally Posted by Lee Knight

I don't need a post stating that music isn't the most important thing to know it isn't to many here. All it takes is a swing by their website and a quick listen to the top 40 mock-ups to realize the bar is low.

 

Just be certain I understand the point you're making here ... are your comments directed at the Top 40 tunes ... or the versions of the Top 40 tunes on the various forumite band member websites you've visited?

 

Originally Posted by Lee Knight

So, sorry if it offends but, the idea of buying a Jam Hub is a pretty good freaking idea. Who cares what people say, Norm? Of course nobody here is saying music isn't important. That wouldn't be a very stylish stance. What I hear is, "Music comes first! That's a given!"

But, no it isn't. It isn't a given.

 

If your point is that there are some pretty marginal performances (as well as more than a few that I personally would consider downright {censored}ty) that have been posted by fellow forumites - I would agree with you wholeheartedly.

However, I would also venture to say that each and every performance I've heard shared by fellow forumites represents the best that they could muster at the time. The reality is that our collection of forum members are each at their own spot on the spectrum in terms of musical development. Some are way up there ... others not so much. I'm also confident that each of them are doing what they know how to do to improve.

Obviously this isn't a breaking news flash - so my question to you is straightforward.

Should the fact that I'm at the beginning of the learning curve in terms of my personal musical development preclude me from talking about the business side of the game as well? What do you feel needs to be changed? Do we need to have folks send you recordings to see if their musical quality passes muster before they're allowed to talk about advanced topics like subs, lighting and wardrode?

Are you suggesting that those of us who aren't masters of our instruments and/or performing ought not take an interested in the whole spectrum of band issues until we pass muster musically speaking?

[Lee Knight]

Come on guys... I think it's pretty clear what I'm saying. I think playing top 40 is a great way to become a better player and band. For some, that is the goal, to play covers. That's great.

I'm trying to provide some balance. That's all. I've said it million times. Get your subs and your lights. I did. But there is a very real trend of diminishing musicianship. That's a shame. And I'm not particularly into "chops". I love groove and band simpatico interplay. I'm not bemoaning the passing of fusion here or anything.

But I'll be honest, I believe this whole trend of party band building is misguided. Is it for the money? Good luck with that. Is it for the hobby of it? Carrying subs sounds fun. Why not hire out and concentrate on what's important? So, I don't know, whatever. I'm not a holier than thou, nose in the air muso type. But I do think getting your rocks off on new subs is a freaking waste of energy and belongs with the boy racer crowd.

Soup up your Civic and go street racing. Who freaking cares! What does that have to do with making music that shakes asses and brings people a good time? I'm snobby? Not really. I just wonder where the music went.

[SLScott86]

This thread is what I thought it was.

[wades_keys]

 

Originally Posted by Lee Knight

Subs have been known to tighten up a band, inspire confidence in harmony singing and instill a sense of natural stage presence. I'd get subs.

 

[wades_keys]

Nobody ever talks about anointing a music director, or working with one. But even the volunteer praise band I was in had one of those. You know: someone that can say: hey mike, can you sing this harmony? Here are the notes. Or: can we do more if a half time feel here, or: this feels rushed. Let's cue up the original real quick and try to get that feel.

But really: get subs.