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This forum, bias and "Clone Threads"

LR Weizel

By LR Weizel
in Effects and Processors

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Phil O'Keefe Rookie

Phil O'Keefe

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this makes sense to me...


im not sure on all your facts (not calling anyone a liar, just havent seen firsthand evidence of it all) but if there is a double standard here or a bias towards certain pedal builders that should be addressed.


why is it ok to post a dead on replica of a big muff circut but a fuzz factory schem gets everyones tits in a knot?

 

 

Fair question.

 

There can be several issues with clones that I have to take into account. First of all, if the builder complains, all I promise to do is to look into it. Since I can't possibly read / see every post, it does help if ANY builder lets me know about something they feel is objectionable, and indeed, some folks are more likely to do that than others. If it's a link to a picture of a DIY clone someone made for personal use that isn't trying to also cop the "look" of an original (always an issue for companies), and they're not offering it for sale, I might just leave it up. If it's a link to a clone that is so close in name, appearance and general "look and feel" that I have to do a double take before I can spot that it's a fake, well, I'm almost certainly going to pull it down - usually with nothing more than a public comment as to why I thought I needed to so. IOW, no ban.

 

IOW, if your pedal guts are derived from a Fuzz Face, but you're not calling it a Fozz Face and putting it into a round enclosure, you're probably fine - especially if I never see it, or it never gets reported to me by the guy who originally designed the FF.

 

There's no hard and fast rulebook on this. In each case, it's a judgment call on my part - which is why there usually aren't any bans over it.

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Phil O'Keefe Rookie

Phil O'Keefe

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No clones of anyone? Aces. No Danelectro, no Xaviere, no Gretsch, no Yamaha, no Marshall JTM threads... should we ban modelers too? They're not illegal either but it's dodgy ground! Oh, and no more Bugera/Behringer jokes. EVER.


I've yet to see anyone actually deal with this point.


If Phil was either level headed, or was the badass some people make him out to be, he wouldn't fold so easily anyway. If Zvex could do {censored} to him, that website probably wouldn't exist either.

 

Again, feel free to ask Zack if he always gets what he wants from me. :lol:

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Phil O'Keefe Rookie

Phil O'Keefe

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I'm inclined to believe that it has more to do with THIS (i.e., the absence of the "cloned" pedal manufacturer - and the concomitant lack of bitching on the behalf of that manufacturer - from the boards) then any sort of absurd kickback system or lionization of boutique designers. Granted, I don't spend every waking hour on these boards but:


Vex definitely has a reputation for being belligerent rather than restrained when provoked on these boards. And sometimes playing the antagonist without provocation. I shouldn't use the phrase reputation as I've seen these things first hand in HCFX, but I don't feel that this thread needs to devolve into a Vex bash-a-thon.


That said, I'm sure no one (NO ONE) is more active in reporting those threads to Phil than he is as is attempting to protect his brand. I can't find fault with him for doing so. And I can't find fault with Phil for lending a sympathetic ear. Or maybe he just has as low of a tolerance for bitching as I (we) do. I dunno. I do find fault with the suggestion that this is a privilege reserved for Vex. I don't see that. In the examples you listed, I'd conjecture that there's an absolute paucity of complaints from the manufacturers who have been cloned to the powers that be around here. I haven't seen Leo Fender on these boards in ages; I think he might've moved over to TGP.

 

Leo's dead. :( I did get to meet him once. Nice guy. But if he was still around and was posting here, and complained because someone was building and selling new, nearly flawless "lawsuit" Telecasters and advertising them in a HCEF spam thread, I would probably pull it down.

 

Anyway, I DO agree that there might be cause for debate as to whether complaining about clone threads should be reason enough for them to be moved. It rubs me the wrong way, you see. I'd rather preserve freedom of information in all quarters of the Internet, but I'll concede that this is a grey area, and that this is a private enterprise and is therefore not obligated to observe said freedoms, and that radicalism really has no place in a {censored}ing guitar forum. Still, we're practically tripping over all the Vex schematics on the web so, make your own clones if you want them people. There's enough overcharging going on out there to begin with.


/unnecessary indulgence of this somewhat open and shut case.

 

I usually don't allow schematics on the board either BTW. Yes, it's probably legal as long as you draw out the circuit yourself (

 

Yeah, you guys can find schematics all over the web. I'm not responsible for the interwebz - just a little corner of it called HC. Even if it's legal (no copyright violation) to redraw it yourself and publish that, it isn't particularly fair IMO, so that's why I take them down. Do I ban people over it? Not usually - heck, rarely, if ever. But I don't think it's cool either, and that again, is a case of bias on my part that I freely admit to. Not because I'm being paid off (I'm not - believe me, this HC gig is worth the equivalent of about half a day in the studio to me PER MONTH - I'm not in it for the money folks), but because it just doesn't feel "right" to me. YMMV, but again, it comes down to my discretion.

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Phil O'Keefe Rookie

Phil O'Keefe

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In the end, I suspect it was your antagonistic behavior (provoked or not) that earned you and the other guy a temp ban. The illegal clone thing had very little to do with it.


I'd compare it to the last time I got a ticket. I was speeding, so I got a ticket for that. I also got citations for having a brake light out and for not having my updated insurance card (I think it was 2 weeks expired and I just hadn't put the new one in my car yet). If it was just the brake light or the insurance card, I wouldn't even have been pulled over, EVEN THOUGH those are technically illegal offenses. Because I had been speeding, though, the other citations were able to be piled on.


I think that's what was going on here. You were being generally mean and vindictive (no offense, but it seems like you're pretty quick to anger in any of the threads you've created or posted in), creating a public "fight" between yourself and the other poster (who also got a temp ban, which should tell you that the link was not the primary reason for the ban). That's why you got banned. Everything else- the suspicious troll-like link, the link content itself, etc- was just tacked on top.


If you want to not be banned, all you have to do is play nice. You can discuss clones and politics and anything else you want... but when you start calling attention to yourself by screaming virtual insults at the other kids on the playground, don't cry foul when the teacher puts you in time out.

 

 

Again, this.

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Phil O'Keefe Rookie

Phil O'Keefe

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I think it's been well-proven that you are a "problem" everywhere you go on the internet.

You were banned before, so you signed up again with a new name to bypass the previous ban. That in itself violates a rule which will get you banned! How do you not understand that? Seriously, I think you post these things just as a way to provoke other people into fighting with you.

 

 

This - all of it.

 

I recommend that everyone just quit responding to Kitty. Yes, it's Kitty. Yes, she's a well-known troll, and she was previously perma-banned. She LIKES it when this stuff goes on. DO NOT FEED THE TROLL PLEASE.

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Phil O'Keefe Rookie

Phil O'Keefe

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Why not just lock this thing? No need to give him any more soapbox to stand on, IMO.



She'd just start another thread. If EVERYONE ignores her, she'll be denied the one thing she wants above all else - attention.

Let her have her last rants. She'll be perma-banned soon enough, and I'll close the thread then. Or Craig will can me for being biased and unfair. Care to wager over which outcome is more likely? ;)

Last time around with Kitty Rose, I had to make a rule that anyone who replied to her or one of her be-backs would get a three day temp ban. That's how we finally got her to go away (at least for a while) - by denying her any sort of response. I might just reimplement that "rule" again shortly - if I do, I'll make sure it's properly and clearly posted so everyone will know the rules. :wave:

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