Members deepblue Posted July 8, 2007 Members Share Posted July 8, 2007 I've studied both of Alchohol's posts and having had an uncoo-operative guitar player leave unexpectedly from a 3piece I am faced w/ a decision:Do I cancel our gigs until i find a competent gtr to hire or....Do I hire a ready to go bass player and jump to gtr to salvge the gigs? Well I improvise and overcome naturally...giving up is for rookies. So in the face of that decision I have been resurecting my gtr chops and have discovered one thing:A good sound has to at least be able to match the dynamics of the drummer. So if you have a bashing drummer you may need to start there in the quest of reasonable stage volume. After satisfactorily achieving that I will be placing my amp closer to me and pointed more at me and maybe even side filling to avoid the beaming effect. And we play tiny rooms but I will be using sound re-enforcement to have a balanced sound. I've played a million gigs the old school way and always had problems w/ hotspots and watching audience members scream at each other trying to talk. So after these two threads I will make changes necessary. Oh and I do sound for another band that only allows me at the desk because they agree w/ these principles and all their people say that the sound is excellent. They are very co-operative and have found their "sound" by working on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rodimus Prime Posted July 8, 2007 Members Share Posted July 8, 2007 +1 Am I the only person old enough to remember that you're supposed to tip the soundguy? Best $20 investment you can make per show. thats awesome. i should do that. I normally just make sure that i make a good impression and make him feel like part of the band. There was one soundguy back in montreal who had the reputation of being a jackass but he was a really great guy if you weren't a rockstar-diva to him. Second time at the club he brought his Les Paul specifically for me to play on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Herald of Light Posted July 8, 2007 Members Share Posted July 8, 2007 He isn't mixing in the sense of controlling all the volumes Wrong. At all the places here, they can't even handle that. I'd never expect them to "enhance" the band. This is not studio recording. The important thing is just that people can hear you AT ALL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stephen Colbert Posted July 8, 2007 Members Share Posted July 8, 2007 If 50 Watts is the same volume as 100 Watts..... why do they make 100 Watt amplifiers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Herald of Light Posted July 8, 2007 Members Share Posted July 8, 2007 It's not the same. Did someone say that or what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GCDEF Posted July 8, 2007 Members Share Posted July 8, 2007 Looking for sympathetic ears(regardless of their knowledge) after getting the old "butt-handed-to-him" in his other post, eh? I was going to show that same link when I saw this. Maybe I'll get another e-mail from Alc. I got an ever so pleasant PM from him on the topic too. BTW, your PM box is full. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GCDEF Posted July 8, 2007 Members Share Posted July 8, 2007 I don't even know why guitar players want to be so loud. I'd be really embarrassed playing so loud that I was screwing up the mix and knowing I was pissing people off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Welladjusted Posted July 8, 2007 Members Share Posted July 8, 2007 The overall sound of the band comes before any one instrument. And it always should. And you don't have the option of telling the singer to just sing louder. But I have a policy of not fighting with bands. If the guitarist refuses to turn down and he drowns out the PA, his band sounds like crap and it's his fault. I've only had a handful of problems though. Most guitarists are easy to work with Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nerol1st Posted July 8, 2007 Members Share Posted July 8, 2007 I watched a band who had this philosophy and it sounded like shit. Turn your amp down noob. Nobody in the audience wants to hear your stupid overpowering ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members knucklefux Posted July 8, 2007 Members Share Posted July 8, 2007 stage volume for my amp is less than practice volume. i have only been asked to turn it down twice, and once was only on the clean channel...go figure. the past few gigs has been only me on guitar, so i figure it would be hard for the soundguy to not mix us properly. the people who have the most fun are the ones who stand up front, and the sound there is {censored}. as long as the soundguy still gives a {censored} about having the band sound good, it usually will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members KarateSchnitzel Posted July 9, 2007 Members Share Posted July 9, 2007 depends on the venue and the soundman...i've had fantastic soundmen..particularly at the better/bugger venues that love a loud stage sound..but then have a monster PA.....for smaller clubs you can't overpoower it with a powerful directional guitar signal else the room sounds great in one place - and guitarless in others......however some are dicks...so there is no answer... however i've always had an attenuator.... (still prefer to blast tho..but only if i hasve decent monitoring of the other instruments...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members madryan Posted July 9, 2007 Members Share Posted July 9, 2007 It was, but after perusing this forum, I noticed that a lot of guys were going for more powerful amps, despite how many soundmen feel, and I wanted to get this perspective too, a perspective that was in the small minority in the Live Sound forum. Especially since these guys are going for 100 watt amps. I play with a 120w Peavey JSX through a 212 Avatar. It's an amp that sounds great at bedroom volumes and at thumping sternum volumes depending on how you tweak the EQ. If the dude doing our sound tells me to turn it down I turn it down. If I can't hear myself over the drummer then I work the stage setup around so that I can stand directly in front of my amp and hear myself. I usually have one monitor with our "B" mix which is basically just vocals and I'm standing in front of my amp which is to one side of the drums. This setup works out great for me. I basically turn up just loud enough to hear myself really well over the drummer and trust the PA for everything else. Just remember that you can't hear yourself very well. Your sound guy is out where he can hear the mains so you may think you're just wailing and everything is perfect and meanwhile you sound like ass coming through the mains. Always EQ your amp so that the sound coming through the mains sounds good. Nothing else matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members -todgemistro- Posted July 9, 2007 Members Share Posted July 9, 2007 We play in pubs and never bother micing up anything other than vocals and it sounds fine, but I think if we were playing anything bigger, we'd need to mic up to fill the room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 17 Tubes Posted July 9, 2007 Members Share Posted July 9, 2007 Just remember that you can't hear yourself very well. Your sound guy is out where he can hear the mains so you may think you're just wailing and everything is perfect and meanwhile you sound like ass coming through the mains. Always EQ your amp so that the sound coming through the mains sounds good. Nothing else matters. This can be hard to do. You need some experience to pull it off. I envy the guys that just have a 2-channel amp, and maybe a few pedals. I *NEED* 128 channels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted July 9, 2007 Members Share Posted July 9, 2007 We play in pubs and never bother micing up anything other than vocals and it sounds fine, but I think if we were playing anything bigger, we'd need to mic up to fill the room.Depends on the genre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Alchemist Posted July 9, 2007 Members Share Posted July 9, 2007 Nothing more annoying than a small venue, with a band thats too loud, sounds awfull..... I have walked out of a lot of shows because of that. I want to hear the band, the whole band, not just the guitar player, drummer, etc. People say because its a small venue its ok, its actually worse, because you have nowhere in the room to get away from the sound if its too loud or too harsh. In a medium venue, you can at least go towards the back of the room until it becomes tolerable.... cant do that in a small pub/bar etc... I know when I listen to music at home, I have it a sound level where its a pleasure to listen to, why wouldnt I expect the same if I went out to see the band? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pakehendrix Posted July 9, 2007 Members Share Posted July 9, 2007 I play in a 12 piece so naturally the PA and our sound guy has a lot to do with our sound. And yes we have the luxury of 'our' sound guy, and so if you're playing at venues with in house guys its a little tricky...but still, I think the main advantage of using PA to control volume levels is that ever-useful master volume. Especially in places like bars, most of the punters will not want you to be at full volume - it's a bit of a shock to the ears. But as the night goes on everyone's usually had a bit to drink and is dancing and so by the last set your volume might have increased a reasonable amount. That is why, IMHO, its better to use an amp as a monitor and let the PA deal with master. Just make sure you talk to the sound guy and also never forget to give a quick soundcheck to all the settings you plan on using - volume boosts/distortion changes for solos especially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cobrahead1030 Posted July 9, 2007 Members Share Posted July 9, 2007 I disagree with Cobra...you can't "cut a soundman out of the loop". You can piss him off even more, make him a bigger jackass then ever....that'll teach HIM! Not. He'll just fuck it up even more. Maintain your sense of reason. you obviously haven't dealt with some of the soundmen i have... the ones that are shitface drunk by the time the headlining band comes on, stumble up there putting some radio shack mics a foot away from the guitar cabs, and not even pointing at the speakers...so you politely say "hey i've got a mic i can use" and put your trusty 57 on the speaker appropriately and he looks at you like an idiot goes thru the same thing with the other guitarist, and by that time he's so confused he doesn't know where he is then they act confused when the singer says he brought his own sm58 and would rather not use the house mic with the windscreen busted halfway off they have since enough to run the bass from the direct out so you think maybe there's hope, since he hasn't screwed that one up yet finally comes the drum mics...he throws some wierd contraption covered in duct tape on the kick drum, a single 'realistic' brand vocal mic for all 3 rack toms with nothing on the floor tome, then he puts a broken 57 on the snare but rather than pointing it at the drum has it pointing in the middle of the snare stand so ya think ok they've got shitty gear but maybe this guy knows how to make the best of it and it won't be that bad...he blasts the guitar thru the PA, and then reaches for the midrange eq's on the board and turns them all down...bass is kinda hard to fuck up too badly...then you get a nice dull lifeless thud of a kick drum, along with 3 toms that are nothing but overtones, and a non existant snare then it's time for vocals, which are feeding back uncontrollably even at a whisper volume, so he cuts all the highs and most of the mids to get that under control...singer asks for a little more in the monitors, the soundguy turns knobs and mumbles incoherently in his talk back mic, but there's nothing but static and occasional feedback coming thru the monitors, the singer informs him that the monitors don't seem to be working and the soundguy walks back up to the stage screaming "what do ya want me to do? are you guys gonna play or not?" in those situations...do everything possible to passify the soundguy pretty much leaves you with the worst sound possible, you're better off just to turn up, rock out and hope for the best now THANKFULLY we've only had a handful of shows like that, usually the PA gear isn't great but the soundguys know how to make the best of it, we talk to them & try to work with them, always saying that if our stage volume is too much to please let us know...sometimes we'll throw him a few bucks or buy him a drink or two if he's really trying to do a good job; in addition to that we've all got good gear that's set up to work well in a live situation, and know how to tweak things on the fly if need be we're the ones that often piss other bands off because they think we got preferntial treatment soundwise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Real MC Posted July 9, 2007 Members Share Posted July 9, 2007 My personal philosophy. For small venues - Most of the sound should come from the stage. Guitars and bass player should modulate their volume to the drummer. Ideally, there is someone out in front, a friend, bandmate, or manager, who can help you adjust your volume during soundcheck and the first couple of songs. The soundman works on getting the vocals at their right level, enhancing the drums and then enhancing your stage sound. He isn't mixing in the sense of controlling all the volumes, but enhancing the stage sound and responding to solos if and when needed, and to different levels of vocal performance. Agree, diagree? I've heard too many bands with this philsophy that sounded like crap. You have no idea of how unprofessional that is. Any competent soundman is there to make you sound good. Either you work with him if he says you're too loud, or the patrons start leaving and the gigs stop coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 17 Tubes Posted July 9, 2007 Members Share Posted July 9, 2007 you obviously haven't dealt with some of the soundmen i have... What a horrible assumption. You didn't have to write all that to prove to me there are shitty soundmen. Can't quailty as a "Floor Tech" so they manage to convince the owner they are a sound technician (becuase they'll work the horrible hours for not much money just to be "The Man".) Probably true that you have done more regional shows than me. I can only grant you the truth of that. And if you call putting your own mic in a proper placement "cutting the soundman out of the loop", well okay. But he is STILL behind the board, and unless you have your own soundman, the other is still "in the loop". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Weathered Posted July 9, 2007 Members Share Posted July 9, 2007 Most of you know how I stand on stage volume. Basically, the PA is there to distribute sound through the room (hopefully) as equally as possible. Guitar amps are extremely beamy, and do not distribute sound equally. So what you are left with is a spot in the room where the guitar is ripping your head off, a spot where the mix is great, and about 75% of the room where the mix sounds like shit. Hardly ideal. If you slap a mic in front of that roaring amp, make the amp roar a little less and purr a little more, and slam the guitar through the PA that is designed to make the mix nice and even throughout the room, the patrons come out and listen to your fine tunes, maybe drink a few drinks, and the bar owners are much more happy. If they're happy, you'll get more gigs and make more cash. (This is all provided that the venue has spent the money on a decent PA and has a halfway competent tech.) Capish? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members telephant Posted July 9, 2007 Members Share Posted July 9, 2007 When I hear people say they cant, dont want to, or dont know how to control their stage volume, I instantly think "amateur." And 99% of the venues in my town dont mic amps because there is no reason to. Clubs are small. And while amps may be "beamy," in a small club, you are going to hear the guitar, cymbols, and bass no matter where you are, even if you dont want to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Weathered Posted July 9, 2007 Members Share Posted July 9, 2007 When I hear people say they cant, dont want to, or dont know how to control their stage volume, I instantly think "amateur." Shea - I know you'll get a kick out of this. We played this 500 person room a couple of weeks ago (it was definitely not full when we played there), and I trained the sound guy, as it's normally my house gig. I brought in my AC30, showed the tech where my volume was going to be, and said I wasn't turning down. But an AC30 at noon on the volume = Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cobrahead1030 Posted July 9, 2007 Members Share Posted July 9, 2007 What a horrible assumption. You didn't have to write all that to prove to me there are shitty soundmen. Can't quailty as a "Floor Tech" so they manage to convince the owner they are a sound technician (becuase they'll work the horrible hours for not much money just to be "The Man".) Probably true that you have done more regional shows than me. I can only grant you the truth of that. And if you call putting your own mic in a proper placement "cutting the soundman out of the loop", well okay. But he is STILL behind the board, and unless you have your own soundman, the other is still "in the loop". my post was a bit long-winded, had some venting to do there i'm just saying we've dealt with some guys that are beyond bad (and i'm sure i'm not the only one) and in those cases there's no humanly possible way a guitarist being a bit too loud could make things any worse than they already are luckily 90% of the gigs i've played haven't been like that, in some areas playing certain types of music people have to deal with that crap a lot more than most players would ever put up with Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Exocaster Posted July 10, 2007 Members Share Posted July 10, 2007 I heard once, before I even started gigging for real, that "smart bands play at the volume of the drummer" and it's a philosophy I took to heart. Even if it meant playing my Marshall JMP on 2. Cobrahead does have a valid point- there are shitty sound guys out there. They're drunk, incompetent, or just don't care. Sometimes all three. I've been fucked by a shitty mix myself; I'm sure many of us have. I played a CD release party a few years ago at which there were no vocals- or much of anything else- in the monitors; the FOH engineer at the club had quit the day before, and there was some random guy from the bar behind the board. I've heard a guy make a Pearl Masters Series kit sound like an 808; at that same show, after hearing the shitty mix, I saw the death metal band that came on next simply crank their 5150 and Ampeg SVT full stacks and "overrule" the sound guy. Conversely, I've heard absolutely fantastic mixes come out of ordinary or even cheap systems. My girlfriend- who has been in bands herself and pulls no[/] punches when it comes to shitty sound, playing or singing- informed me once that the best mix she'd ever heard my band get... was at a club with a Behringer board for the FOH system. I've found that most sound guys are at least basically competent; even if they're not great, they're just doing the best they can with what they've got to work with, and that most bands that sound truely shitty do so because of "user error"- they can't dial in a decent tone, tune their drums, play in time, or the singer either can't sing well or doesn't know how to work the mic and is fluctuating between booming loud and fading in and out. Regarding unmiced gigs: I've never played unmiced at anything larger than a 30 seat coffee shop. Even when I've played out of town, even out of state I haven't encountered a venue that didn't have at least a basic PA with monitors. My guitar has always gotten miced, even when the only thing that got miced on the drum kit was the kick. Everywhere I've played around here that'll have harder rock or metal acts has had at least 24 channels at the board with a full PA, and at least L/R/C monitors, often sidefills and/or additional monitoring. I don't play as loud live as I do at practice, as I like to have some guitar in my monitor. It makes it easier to hear myself when I can have sound coming from a source that's facing me. But I digress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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