Members coyote-1 Posted July 10, 2007 Members Share Posted July 10, 2007 That philosophy is flat-out wrong.personally, it sucks to have a guitarist turn up so loud that the soundman can't put it through the PA very much, because you have one isolated spot in the crowd where it's too loud, and everywhere else it can't be heardA soundman who knows what he's doing can work with that. And the result is everyone in the venue gets the right balance, except those folk right in the line of fire. They get the guitar too loud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Weathered Posted July 10, 2007 Members Share Posted July 10, 2007 That philosophy is flat-out wrong.A soundman who knows what he's doing can work with that. And the result is everyone in the venue gets the right balance, except those folk right in the line of fire. They get the guitar too loud. If it's a 500 person room, and 500 people are there, I agree with you (to some degree). If it's an empty 100 person room, that's complete BS. What happens is the guitar amp is blowing the tech away, so he runs less in the PA, because he's having trouble hearing the vocals over the roaring guitar amp. I actually dealt with this last weekend - I was mixing a band that was really good musically, but the guitarist had his amp WAY too loud for the 60 people there, and I couldn't get my mix to sound good at the volume level appropriate for the crowd (this is a 550 person room, enough PA to hit 105 dB clean at FOH at capacity, so not some little coffee house), and I would have been much happier with the sound of the band had their guitarist just kept his volume in check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeathMonkey Posted July 10, 2007 Members Share Posted July 10, 2007 I think so much of this is a holdover from guys playing non-MV Marshalls, Bassmans and Twins over the years. But most modern amps, while they may sound better turned up, at least are not volume dependent for gain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Exocaster Posted July 10, 2007 Members Share Posted July 10, 2007 I think so much of this is a holdover from guys playing non-MV Marshalls, Bassmans and Twins over the years. But most modern amps, while they may sound better turned up, at least are not volume dependent for gain.Is it "Bassmans" or "Bassmen"? I think you've got a valid point though, teebes. I think much of the antipathy towards high wattage amps and large cabs, especially in small venues, comes from this as well. It's almost always older guys I hear that from- the classic "a Deluxe Reverb is enough for anyone" arguement. They don't understand modern master volume amps and tones; it's outside of their experience. I've never found a modern amp with which I gained a significant tonal advantage turning up much beyond my drummer. (For these purposes, I don't consider a master volume JMP or a JCM 800 a "modern" amp.) Once they're up to gig volume, they're good to go. Wattage and cab choice with modern amps are really tonal considerations, not volume ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Crack Hitler Posted July 10, 2007 Members Share Posted July 10, 2007 I don't care how the sound is done, as long as I am louder than everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Phishmonkey Posted July 10, 2007 Members Share Posted July 10, 2007 A couple of things... Non guitar playing people don't really care about tone, sometimes not even playing. I once got a ton of compliments on the worst version of baba or reilly I've ever heard played with an impossible to tune squier through a ds1 and marshall acoustic amp . However, they will notice if they can't here the singer, or if their eardrums are being blasted away. On the "play to the drummer thing", yeah thats how I do it, but it can be problematic. But the problem is, a lot of drummers are just as belligerent as guitar players about their volume, sometimes worse. I've jammed with idiot drummers who simply won't play softer and when I told them to reduce their volume they look at me like I'm retarded and say "You have to hit the drums hard to play them dumbass" I still base my volume on the drummer, but just be aware that if the drummer is stupid enough this philosophy can ruin your stage volume. Don't be afraid to tell the drummer to shut up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Weathered Posted July 10, 2007 Members Share Posted July 10, 2007 On the "play to the drummer thing", yeah thats how I do it, but it can be problematic. But the problem is, a lot of drummers are just as belligerent as guitar players about their volume, sometimes worse. I've jammed with idiot drummers who simply won't play softer and when I told them to reduce their volume they look at me like I'm retarded and say "You have to hit the drums hard to play them dumbass" I still base my volume on the drummer, but just be aware that if the drummer is stupid enough this philosophy can ruin your stage volume. Don't be afraid to tell the drummer to shut up To elaborate a little bit more, I've found that it's not the DRUMS that set your stage volume, it's the CYMBALS. Those bright, brash bastards that drummers like to bash are much louder than a snare being hit hard. To be honest, I LOVE when drummers have a heavy hand on their drums. They have to understand that it doesn't translate to cymbals, though. The best drummers pound the {censored} out of their snare drums and hit their cymbals just enough to pull the tone out of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Phishmonkey Posted July 10, 2007 Members Share Posted July 10, 2007 To elaborate a little bit more, I've found that it's not the DRUMS that set your stage volume, it's the CYMBALS. Those bright, brash bastards that drummers like to bash are much louder than a snare being hit hard. To be honest, I LOVE when drummers have a heavy hand on their drums. They have to understand that it doesn't translate to cymbals, though. The best drummers pound the {censored} out of their snare drums and hit their cymbals just enough to pull the tone out of them. The best drummers often don't play small clubs where the guitarist is 2 feet away. Guitarists have to turn down and sacrifice a bit of tone when playing small venues, why should it be any different with drummers? That said, I do see great bands on small stages. The drums usually aren't painful either, thanks to some decent micing and an intelligent person behind the drums. A good drummer knows when he's {censored}ing everything else up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Weathered Posted July 10, 2007 Members Share Posted July 10, 2007 The best drummers often don't play small clubs where the guitarist is 2 feet away. Guitarists have to turn down and sacrifice a bit of tone when playing small venues, why should it be any different with drummers? That's very true, but a loud snare can be dealt with much easier than a loud and brash hi hat. The easiest demonstration for a drummer is to hit the crash with medium speed, and have them listen to that, and then to hammer it. When a cymbal gets hammered, it gets distorted and sounds like {censored}, whereas when it is hit with a lighter touch, it's much smoother and sounds more natural. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Phishmonkey Posted July 10, 2007 Members Share Posted July 10, 2007 That's very true, but a loud snare can be dealt with much easier than a loud and brash hi hat.The easiest demonstration for a drummer is to hit the crash with medium speed, and have them listen to that, and then to hammer it. When a cymbal gets hammered, it gets distorted and sounds like {censored}, whereas when it is hit with a lighter touch, it's much smoother and sounds more natural. Ugh, I've heard that tone far too often. The worse is when they don't have a crash, and try to use the ride. Not only do you get the bad drummer distorted cymbal sound from them hitting too hard in general, but then they hit extra hard to try and make the rise act like a crash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LithiumZero Posted July 10, 2007 Members Share Posted July 10, 2007 no, i disagree. get your amp at a decent volume and angle it so that FOH doesn't have it too loud. Mic the amps (di for bass) and let the soundguy have control. You'll have a better mix and the soundguy won't want to make you sound like {censored} and blame it on your inability to work with him... and he'd be right to do so. +1000000000 Do your job and let the soundman do his. He's not telling you how to play guitar so don't tell him how to do sound Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kurtisqpublic Posted July 10, 2007 Members Share Posted July 10, 2007 Most of you know how I stand on stage volume. Basically, the PA is there to distribute sound through the room (hopefully) as equally as possible. Guitar amps are extremely beamy, and do not distribute sound equally. So what you are left with is a spot in the room where the guitar is ripping your head off, a spot where the mix is great, and about 75% of the room where the mix sounds like {censored}. Hardly ideal. If you slap a mic in front of that roaring amp, make the amp roar a little less and purr a little more, and slam the guitar through the PA that is designed to make the mix nice and even throughout the room, the patrons come out and listen to your fine tunes, maybe drink a few drinks, and the bar owners are much more happy. If they're happy, you'll get more gigs and make more cash. (This is all provided that the venue has spent the money on a decent PA and has a halfway competent tech.) Capish? +10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members enditol Posted July 10, 2007 Members Share Posted July 10, 2007 I use a lot of preamp gain and an amp with an excellent master volume so I have no beef with turning it down live. However if the monitoring is insufficient as is often the case, especially with a hard hitting drummer, then I will turn up as required to use my amp for monitoring purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 496dart Posted July 10, 2007 Members Share Posted July 10, 2007 It totally depends on the room and how much PA(power) you have to work with .a small room will be destroyed by too-loud stage volume . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Weathered Posted July 10, 2007 Members Share Posted July 10, 2007 It totally depends on the room and how much PA(power) you have to work with . a small room will be destroyed by too-loud stage volume . Any room will be destroyed with too much stage volume - it's just a matter of at what level "too much" is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thinkpad20 Posted July 10, 2007 Members Share Posted July 10, 2007 Yeah the last show I played I turned on my amp, which was set to the volume we use during rehearsal, and played a note -- the sound guy's like, "whoa! turn that down!" I figured he'd know what he was talking about so I did, but he just didn't realize how {censored}ing loud my bro is on drums . Anyway I couldn't hear a damn thing for a while (a few songs), until I turned up my amp a bit, and even then it was really hard to hear. A few people in the audience also told me that I was hard to hear, although I assume that they could at least hear me. And we were only three guys (guitar, bass drums) so it shouldn't have been hard.Bottom line: sound guys do not always know what they are talking about. It was a small club, we should have just ditched the P.A. for the guitars and bass and just used it for vocals and drums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members STRAT TOOL Posted July 10, 2007 Members Share Posted July 10, 2007 I'm the sound guy at our gigs. After cranking my amp to the sweet spot, I mic it too. I crank the {censored} out of that channel on the board in hopes of drowning out our singer who is either out of whack or forgetting the correct lyrics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members STRAT TOOL Posted July 10, 2007 Members Share Posted July 10, 2007 Yeah the last show I played I turned on my amp, which was set to the volume we use during rehearsal, and played a note -- the sound guy's like, "whoa! turn that down!" I figured he'd know what he was talking about so I did, but he just didn't realize how {censored}ing loud my bro is on drums . Anyway I couldn't hear a damn thing for a while (a few songs), until I turned up my amp a bit, and even then it was really hard to hear. A few people in the audience also told me that I was hard to hear, although I assume that they could at least hear me. And we were only three guys (guitar, bass drums) so it shouldn't have been hard. Bottom line: sound guys do not always know what they are talking about. It was a small club, we should have just ditched the P.A. for the guitars and bass and just used it for vocals and drums. yea but guitar amps are so "beamy" you really need to get the guitar in the FOH speakers or you're gonna kill a few people and the rest won't hear you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 496dart Posted July 10, 2007 Members Share Posted July 10, 2007 Any room will be destroyed with too much stage volume - it's just a matter of at what level "too much" is. not a 10,000 cap room with a rack full of Crowm 5,000's . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members FastRedPonyCar Posted July 10, 2007 Members Share Posted July 10, 2007 We just point our cabs backwards towards the back of the stage and let the soundman do what he's paid to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Heineken Posted July 10, 2007 Members Share Posted July 10, 2007 My personal philosophy. For small venues - Most of the sound should come from the stage. Guitars and bass player should modulate their volume to the drummer. Ideally, there is someone out in front, a friend, bandmate, or manager, who can help you adjust your volume during soundcheck and the first couple of songs. The soundman works on getting the vocals at their right level, enhancing the drums and then enhancing your stage sound. He isn't mixing in the sense of controlling all the volumes, but enhancing the stage sound and responding to solos if and when needed, and to different levels of vocal performance. Agree, diagree? Oh, man. Haven't even read the replies yet, but i HATE those wannabe PA guys that with their cheap PA systems that have cost half of your Marshall (or whatever) stack used and want you to cranck it to MINUS eleven so that they can have total control over their {censored}ty wall-mart speaker and tone-sucking microphone system. Tube amps have to ROAR as do Celestion speakers. DI the bass, amplify the vocals and drums AND STAY THE $%^& AWAY from my guitar sound unless you like it loud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vermintide Posted July 10, 2007 Members Share Posted July 10, 2007 Why do most guys on this forum think soundguys are second to god? In my experience they are total {censored}wits who don't know how to work their own gear, there is no way a band could give their sound to his control. When you move up to higher levels I suppose that changes... But jeez. You guys all seem to have the impression sound guys can do no wrong and all know everything about mixing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thinkpad20 Posted July 10, 2007 Members Share Posted July 10, 2007 We just point our cabs backwards towards the back of the stage and let the soundman do what he's paid to do. I suppose that's a good idea, IF you have 1) a competent sound guy and 2) a good PA system with evenly distributed sound. But often it seems like that would not be worth the risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nerol1st Posted July 11, 2007 Members Share Posted July 11, 2007 The problem is there are too many noobs. It's an issue of ratio of noob guitarists to noob sound guys. Noob guitarists/bands being the majority. So seriously, nobody gives a {censored} about your tone {censored}tard turn your {censored} down so I can enjoy your band (or I will walk out and take my crowd with me). {censored} even if the soundguy does his job right your still not going to hear your "tone" anyways because your going to be monitoring your amp through a monitor witch is not pointed at the {censored}ing crowd. Maybe bands need to get out and watch more shows so you know what it's like having some dumbass crank his uber schtupid big amp. Serously I have yet to hear a band who didn't sound like {censored} as soon as the moron guitarist decided he was the center of the universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cobrahead1030 Posted July 11, 2007 Members Share Posted July 11, 2007 i see a lot of noob bands out there, but having the guitar amp too loud is usually the least of their worries sound-wise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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