Classic or Boutique Brands... Where do you stand?

[Chris Loeffler]

It's great to have so many amp options out there, and I was curious where people stand when it comes to heritage brands (Marshall, Fender, Vox, Supro, Soldano) versus any one of the hundreds of boutique brands? Which do you prefer (or would you prefer), and why?

[Tomm Williams]

Although some of the exotics look intriguing, my collection over the years has been Fender, Marshall and Vox. I recently acquired a 67 blackface bassman with matching 2x12 cab and I'm in heaven.

[t_e_l_e]

haven't ever had an amp which was more than 1000eu.

i have played a vintage ac30 and an old jcm800 and i think those were the most "expensive" amps i ever tried.

i own a sovtek midget50h which gives me the nice marshall tone and currently play a tweed deluxe clone i built myself from BYOC which i love. but i guess i would never spent the money for a vintage one or would buy one of the 2k$ reissues...

call me cheap, but why buy an expensive amp, when there are so great amps under 1k$ out there?

 

ok i haven't ever played any mesa amp, deep inside i fear if i ever play one the bug could bite me

[onelife]

I play and have owned mostly Fender amps. I like the older ones and find the smaller boutique builders are more in tune with that than FMIC is.

 

That being said, if I show up at a gig and the provided amp is a Hot Rod Deluxe then I'm okay with that.

 

The best amp I have ever had is a Yamaha DG80. I don't understand why Yamaha discontinued the DG series so quickly but, as a humble guitar player, I certainly can't deny their business sense and their obvious success in the music business.

[Mikeo]

There's a lot of great choices out there. My philosophy is this. If you spring $2000-3000 on some vintage amp, it better be damn nice. Boutiques amps are probably more reliable and might actually sound better than the amps the are copied after.

 

I have nothing super old, a Marshall JCM800 combo from the early 80's and a Fender Twin Reverb from the 80's. the rest is some reissue Fender stuff, Mesa amp, a bunch of smaller amps like the Fender Blues Junior, a small 5 watt Gibson, and Marshall Class 5.

 

For a while I had many more Mesa amps, but sold them, as there were super heavy to haul. I do have a Dr Z Maz 18 which is really nice.

 

What ever you gig with, hopefully it's not in the repair shop all the time.

[1001gear]

So far all the amps that get my ear are toward the boutique albeit mass produced end of the scale. Diezel, Bogner, etc...

I use a Boogie rack unit with several preamps and even more ODs so I'd have to say generic boutique.

[WRGKMC]

The problem you have with boutique stuff comes down to this. Will the manufacturer be in business in years to come and will the amp retain its value if that company goes belly up. Fender Marshall Vox and others have retained their resale due to their popularity and can actually go up in value. Parts are still available too.

 

I have a 70's Sound City head with a blown Transformer. Partridge Transformer company went out of business long ago, They were used in those amps and early HiWatts I believe and gave those amps their unique sound. The only way to find them now is to get one from a cannibalized head and they charge an arm and a leg. The one I need will cost me $250 if I can find one. You can buy a Fender transformer for in the $50 range just about anyplace.

 

Some of the old Sunn amps have the same problems. The manufacturers used unique transformers and parts and when they blow it can be a real problem finding replacements.

 

The question does come down to whether you plan on keeping that amp for a good many years. I've had my Blackfaced Bassman since 1967. I actually pulled it out last night and have a pair of dual caps that need replacing because some AC is getting through to the preamp tubes and garbling the sound quality slightly. They aren't the Whale caps that were originally in the amp but a good enough quality replacement that should do fine. 50 years for caps isn't bad. I'd like to see some of these boutique amps last that long, but I'm afraid I wont be around for another 50 years to find out which ones survive the years.

 

You also want to think about the complexity. Simple is cheaper, has less parts that can fail, and repairs are going to be cheaper. Unique designs have been tried. Some work and some accelerate an amps death. You can get all the tones you need from external pedals and processing units. Having effects and additional circuitry built into the amp is going to make it difficult or impossible to repair by anyone but the manufacturer. When you see what they charge for repairs you quickly learn why many vintage amps are still around. They get maintained and repaired because you have local guys who can do the work and doing your own repairs isn't that difficult.

 

Plus having a foot pedal fail in the middle of a gig isn't going to end the show. You can always pull the pedal out of the chain and continue playing without it. If the built in effects of an amp go out, you are dead in the water. Hopefully you have a backup amp because that amp will likely need to be boxed up and sent to the manufacture for repair.

[Mr.Grumpy]

1) Main reason - they are out of my price range.

I'm an amateur, and music doesn't have the priority in my life to justify spending $2,000 + on a amp. My $300 Music Man and $400 Mesa get the job done for me.

 

2) Limited resale market, limited resale value. I see boutique amps like Dr. Z, Divided by 13 and other lesser-known brands being listed over and over on my local craigslist.

 

3) Limited features and power. People really pay $3,000 or more for a 20 watt half stack with no channel switching, no reverb and a single tone knob?

 

4) I don't believe in mojo. Sure, there are some beautifully-made boutique and vintage amps, but for the most part, the method of construction - whether point-to-point or a printed circuit board, doesn't affect the amps' tone OR reliability.

[1001gear]

The real players would all swear by their amps. I'd guess the majority of these sellers couldn't play in the first place and had better use for the cash. Apologies to those on hard times.

[Mikeo]

I figure when touring or playing regionally/locally 200 plus shows a year, you will want gear (amps) that are covered under what I call the 3 R's. Reliable, Repairable, and Replaceable.

 

That's probably why I still see a lot of newer classic Fender stuff on stages. Bigger acts are gonna road case there amps for extra protections and road worthiness, and not just toss it in the back seat of the car and hope for the best.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jazzer2020]

 

...but for the most part, the method of construction - whether point-to-point or a printed circuit board, doesn't affect the amps' tone OR reliability.

 

I'm glad you brought this up because I was about to start a new post on this theme.

 

Can someone here please tell me what all the fuss is about concerning point-to-point wiring?

 

Why exactly is it more desirable than PCB wiring?

Isn't a wiring connection a wiring connection?

 

Please be as specific as possible so I can become a believer.

 

 

[Phil O'Keefe]

I don't care if it's new or old - I just care about how it sounds and whether it's going to be reliable for me long-term. I have old amps, as well as some that are newer... if push came to shove and I had to pick one or the other to use exclusively, I'd probably stick with old amps, if for no other reason than they're usually P2P and therefore easier to work on / service than PCB-based amps.

[Jazzer2020]

if push came to shove and I had to pick one or the other to use exclusively' date=' I'd probably stick with old amps, if for no other reason than they're usually P2P and therefore easier to work on / service than PCB-based amps.[/quote']

 

So is this the only difference between P2P and PCB-based amps? Ease of repairs?

Sound-wise they shouldn't be different, correct?

(We are talking tube amps here of course)

[Mikeo]

The inside of a JCM 800 is a combination PCB and PTP wire. Kind of what Mesa does inside there amps.

 

Fender's new stuff is all PCB and ribbon cables. I's been that was since at least the 80's.I once broke an input jack on my Fender amp. I ended up calling Fender for the part. SOB's socket me like 25 bucks for a 2 dollar part. I 'm pretty gentle on my gear too, so s!@t happens.

 

 

 

[WRGKMC]

 

I'm glad you brought this up because I was about to start a new post on this theme.

 

Can someone here please tell me what all the fuss is about concerning point-to-point wiring?

 

Why exactly is it more desirable than PCB wiring?

Isn't a wiring connection a wiring connection?

 

Please be as specific as possible so I can become a believer.

 

 

I can help you there. These are two different types of manufacturing. I'll keep it general because there are always exceptions to the rules.

 

Point to point are usually older, non assembly line builds where you have either a single tech or a small group of techs building an amp. It can be done on an assembly line too but generally the people building the amps are better trained and have better skills soldering and assembling individual parts correctly. Because they have to be better trained, they used to get better pay which increased the cost of the amps.

 

The thing here is these amps could be built on an assembly line and as it moves along you have dozens of people installing parts and in the process dozens of mistakes can be made. At the end of the line you'd usually have someone go over the entire amp, test it and correct any mistakes made on the line. The main thing is however its made by hand and with those hands you can have mistakes so anything you read about point to point being better is a good 90% or more BS.

 

PCB's are a different manufacturing process. It can be done robotically like your computer boards are built but given the simplicity of amps they are usually built by hand too. You have low cost unskilled workers sitting there, with a stack of resistors and his job is to stick a half dozen resistors in that board and bend the cats wiskers over so they don't fall out. The board is given to another person and they stick all the caps in. Another sticks the tube sockets in etc. When all the components are in they brush rosin on the contacts then stick the boards in a rig, then wave solder them. This is the critical point because the wave soldering unit is a huge bin full of heated lead solder. The temp of the lead has to be right and the molten lead can get a crust to form on top. Because the crust is cooler it can cause cold solder joints and weak solder joints when the boards are wave soldered.

 

 

This is where volume can benefit the process. If you use the solder up quickly you can have better contacts and better consistence because you're constantly adding fresh solder to the machine. If you do low volume production, its likely the company will be frugal, reuse and reheat the leftover solder and each time they do it makes for poorer quality solder jobs.

 

I spent the last 40 years as an electronic tech repairing gear and I can say the quality of PCB's has gotten much better. Some of the old stuff I'd see was pretty pathetic. Some circuits were overheated and the rosin was cooked away and solder would crack with just a little pressure, Cold solder joints, solder beads, splashes, you name it. I cant count the number of PCB's I repaired just going through and re-soldering the components.

 

After the boards are soldered then its just a matter of mounting them in the chassis. They can be soldered in or plugged in. In tube amps You definitely want them soldered in due to heat and convection drawing in dust which contaminates the contacts and makes them arc out. SS is low voltage and low temp. Having plugs isn't as big a deal and it brings down the cost of manufacturer and repair.

 

Which is better? I'd say for Solid State, PCB's is a better build. The components are lower voltage and lighter in weight so the parts will remain soldered to the boards. Again it comes down to the quality of the wave soldering and of course the amp design here but even the imports have improved to the point where these amps can last a good long time. Of course the quality of the components on those boards are an issue too. Poor quality parts don't last and its less likely they will be repaired when they fail.

 

Tube amps using PCB's is not a good combination. Tubes produce allot of heat and having the tube sockets PCB mounted is a bad idea. I've repaired many amps where the tubes went bad and literally cooked the PCB board. The boards are made of fiberglass and they turn to carbon which conducts electricity. The high voltage bias can arch across the carbonized board causing all kinds of damage. I had one amp where I literally cut holes out of the board to remove the carbonized material and get the circuit working again.

 

Heat from the tubes caused the initial problem. The heat weakened the solder joints and along with the vibration from the speakers the joints cracked causing an open contact which lead to the chain reaction of failures. As you can guess I don't favor tube amps with PCB's based on my repair experience.

 

Vintage builds had the tube sockets mounted on the steel chassis. This is a much better heat sink and much more durable. Porcelain tube sockets can last a lifetime and the other components can be suspended above the chassis in those areas and not overheat.

 

There's more to it but that gives you a basic outline. Point to point and PCB's can be built by a single person but you usually find the PCB's in mass production. Point to point can be loaded with weaknesses too. Landfills have just as many corpses of point to point builds as they do PCB's. Its just the vintage amps that survived were the cream of the crop, built well and maintained by experienced techs.

 

You don't see all the basket cases that didn't last but I assure you there were just as many problems with point to point as there were PCB's. A good deal of those failures were caused by the component quality and not the build too.

[Jazzer2020]

Tube amps using PCB's is not a good combination..

 

And yet this is precisely what Fender has been doing for many years now.

 

 

Thanks for your excellent review of these two different manufacturing techniques. I learned a lot.

 

So if I may summarize:

 

Much to the chagrin of boutique amp manufacturers,

P2P dos not inherently mean 'better' or 'better quality' than PCB boards.

 

P2P does not necessarily mean just one person did the work.

 

Tubes plus PCB boards are more prone to heat problems than tubes plus proper P2P wiring.

 

 

 

[WRGKMC]

Yes you seem to get it. PCB's for tubes is not new however. I was working on them in the late 70's. Cant remember the models, just thr repairs done.

 

 

Point to point amps can be assembly line amps made with unskilled workers just like PCB's can be. You often find the first builds of amps are often built by one guy or a single team of guys. As the amps sell more they expand the manufacturing to an assembly line to keep up with incoming orders.

 

PCB's can also begin with a computer design and be manually etched and built by hand. As production goes up these boards can be made robotically without any hands on. It all depends on the company and the number of amps being built. Larger companies like Fender often subcontract the boards out to other smaller companies to be built. There's even situations where you may have some boards work in several different models to save on redesign costs.

 

You don't have to reinvent the wheel every time you want to build a new amp. Fir example, you can easily use the power amp design or one amp and combine it with a modified preamp from another. The split between the amps front end and power amp will always be at line level so splitting an amp in half and recombining them is usually possible so long as the power supply is able to power both.

 

Tube amps are all this way. Its amazing how similar all the tube designs really are. Many date back to the 30's and 40's and very few changes are made nor can be made. The tubes have a narrow efficiency range and there's only so many ways you can wire them up and power them if you expect to have good sound. There's only a half dozen of so power tubes used in all amps so the power amps are going to be amazingly similar.

The preamp designs can be a bit more creative but when it really boils down to it, the preamps all do similar things too. They in fact re-voice many designs just to give them a slightly different range of sounds. With a relatively small amount of modding you can take one amp and make it sound like another.

 

Speakers are another factor. You'd be surprised just how similar say the Fender Silver faced amps all sounded similar even with different designs used. What made them sound different were the speakers used which is the "other" 33% of the guitar chain. Guitar is 33% and the amp is 33" the 3 together add up to produce you complete sound.

 

PCB's again aren't my first choice in a tube amp build. They are fine for transistors but just the weight of a tube can be a really bad idea. if a head takes a shot that tube and socket will see "allot" more centrifugal force when the amp takes a shot. Unless the tube socket is glued to the board it can crack solder joints easily. (its one of the first checks I do on amp repairs and you'd be astounded at how many fixes are nothing but bad solder joints)

 

PCB's are too flexible too. You go and push a new tube into the socket, flex the board and you have solder joints crack that way too. My not happen when its new either, as I said the metal fatigues with repeated heating and age. By the time you put in that second or 3rd set of tubes that board isn't the same. Many will begin to discolor with age too and gradually carbonize over time. Dust, dirt and smoke resins and moisture makes this sticky tar like concoction coat boards and its exactly what the high voltage from a tube needs to allow what's called "creeping".

 

You've seen the old Frankenstein movies where the high voltage generators produce big lightening bolts. That's all because the voltage is seeking ground. The voltage isn't nearly that high in an amp where it can jump through the air, but put a layer of sticky dust that traps moisture and that voltage can creep out onto the board and actually etch carbon trails on its surface.

 

One of the things I'd do restoring PCB amps is to clean and degrease the boards and remove any of these etchings with sand paper. If you keep the amps really clean then you only have to deal with the board slowly baking, changing color and carbonizing.

 

I'll also add that some things can look like they wont last while others look to be solid as a rock and are the first things to go. Cant count the number of really good and really bad mods done by techs too. Some get really creating and actually do work well. Others you'd be better off using duct tape and chewing gum. I've seen techs who have been doing work for 40 years who couldn't solder two wires together and a few young guys who really have the gift.

 

Only other thing I can say, as a Musician, you will need a go to technician are you advance in that field. You should seek out and find a good tech to take care of you just like you would a mechanic for your car. Techs are proud of their work and they often have to put in allot of hard work you may not even see diagnosing problems. Treat him fair and he will likely do the same for you if he's any good at what he does.

[Spotmandeux]

I got to a point in my life that I decided I had been playing long enough to deserve and justify having a custom/boutique amp made for me by a local amp builder to my specifications. The result was a beautiful amp, hand wired – topshelf components and construction and the most beautiful woodworking I’ve seen. It also came with a steep price tag. After spending weeks trying to dial it in closer to the tone I like I ended up putting it in the garage and going back to using my old 5150. Lesson I learned is stick with what you like, what you’ve spent hours and hours using, an amp that you know the sweet spot of, how to draw controlled feedback from, how to position the mic for the best tone etc. For the money I spent on the Verellen I could have bought three 5150s. Now, when I go into the garage there’s a sheet draped over this thing shaped like a half-stack and it just pisses me off every time I walk past it.

[onelife]

Servicabilty is a big deal. I have repaired older Fender amplifiers with point to point wiring in between sets onstage.

 

The old Traynor amps were great for that. The chassis did not need to be pulled out - the top came off by removing four bolts and the schematic was printed on the underside of the top.

[onelife]

Most of the work I do on modern Fender amplifiers is repairing bad solder connections that result from the wave soldering process.

[WRGKMC]

^^^ True, there is allot of shabby soldering on new amps these days. Whenever I buy a piece of electronic gear I open it up and go around checking for solder splashes, poor solder joints etc. I often clean up leftover resin which can be corrosive over time or hold specs of solder which can be slightly conductive, You'd be surprised what just a cleaning with some flux remover and a stiff brush can do to clean up the sound. I like knowing everything is ship shape in there, plus I know what kind of a build I'm playing through.

[MBET]

Often the boutique amps are trying to copy classic designs of Marshall, Fender, Vox. The price of a new boutique amp is often around the same price of the vintage amp it's copying. So the benefit at that price might be the reliability of having a sturdy new amp on the road instead of a 40-50 year old amp that has been baking from the heat of the tubes forever.

 

I end up getting amps used. I don't think I've ever bought one new. Usually I can resell it for close to the price I paid later. I've ended up with older Marshall and Fender stuff mainly. A 100 watt Marshall Non-master JCM 800 (since sold), A Mesa Boogie Mark IIB combo (since sold), and a silver faced Fender Vibrolux Reverb (I still have). I also have a '57 Tweed Champ for playing at home. A Supro Super is lurking about here somewhere toon

Is Mesa considered an established brand or boutique now? At the time I got the Mesa amp they were a newer company and considered boutique. Now they are probably considered an established brand.

[SteinbergerHack]

JMO -

 

My two main "go-to" amps are a Bogner XTC and a JCM 800 Marshall. Neither is "better" than the other, but they do things differently. If I were going to play a small-club rock gig, I would probably bring the Marshall. If I'm doing anything that includes a wider range of sounds, I'm going to show up with the Bogner, simply because it has a wider range of really good sounds (including a clean channel that kills).

 

IMO, most of the older classics are one-trick ponies that deliver one fantastic iconic sound. Fender Super Reverb, Marshall Plexi and Vox AC30 come to mind. In contrast, the "boutique" amps come in two categories: 1) Clones of the classics that you can't buy new anymore, and 2) Multi-channel rigs that do a lot of sounds and do them very, very well. The Bogner XTC and Diezel Einstein would be examples of the multi-channel rigs...

 

YMMV.