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  • #46
    Originally posted by flemtone View Post

    I haven't heard the new mixes yet. That being said, the way I first heard the album (and played to death) is the way I 'know' the album. It's the first album I heard where the recording process and the songs melded together to make a 'whole' - a huge part of the artistic merit of the album is the way it was mixed down. That's just the way I'll always want to hear it - exactly the way it was when it was first introduced to me.

    I'll give the remixes a listen, but I'm not optimistic. It's sorta like 'Star Wars' - it was great as it was, so why tinker with it?

    (that being said, I still prefer 'Pet Sounds' by just a little bit...)
    It's like an act of artistic vandalism. Maybe that's too strong. Maybe more like those postcards where they make a funny out of a Van Gogh or a Da Vinci.
    flip the phase

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    • #47
      Originally posted by gubu View Post
      No, it's wrong. I don't like it.

      Kill it.

      Kill it with fire.

      The unorthodox panning was one of the things that made this album so great in the first place. I don't care that everything sounds a bit clearer on these new remixes (does it really? The bass guitar doesn't). It's all in the wrong place, and the magic fairy dust is conspicuous by its absence.

      If Sir George Martin were alive today, he'd give his son a deserved slap upside the head.

      I'm down as far as Lovely Rita, and I've winced my way through every single track.

      Never heard anything so wrong in my entire life.


      *fetches original CD release to cleanse ears, HiFi, and air in the building*

      Everybody is entitled to an opinion; but you're so wrong it's not even funny. The original stereo mixes for Pepper were goofy. That panning was terrible.
      __________________________________________________
      Politics are like sports, where both teams suck

      Maybe we can all just agree that Bush was stupid and Cheney was lying and call it a day. - guitarcapo

      Originally posted by Grumpy_Polecat View Post
      For the record: Hitler using gas to exterminate his presumed enemies does not equal the use of chemical weapons.
      Reprehensible as it was, gassing was a conventional and accepted method for execution at the time. It is a stretch to equivocate the two.

      Comment


      • #48
        The panning on Pepper was goofy due to the limitations of the gear. If you're using two four track decks and bouncing madly between them, stereo tracks are a luxury you can't really afford... which means lots of parts are going to be sharing a track. Wherever one goes, the others also have to go, unless there's a break where you can change the panning as a mix move. Stereo multitrack mixes really don't make sense until you're at 8 tracks or higher... then the limitations become far less notable than they are with a 4 track.

        I suspect Giles went back to the unbounced tracks and compiled everything, then mixed it from those tracks, as opposed to using the bounced four track master.

        I haven't heard it yet... was thinking about waiting until June 2, which will be exactly 50 years since I heard the original (stereo - which was bigger here in the USA at the time than it was in the UK, as has already been pointed out) mixes.
        **********

        "Look at it this way: think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize half of 'em are stupider than that."

        - George Carlin

        "It shouldn't be expected that people are necessarily doing what they appear to be doing on records."

        - Sir George Martin, All You Need Is Ears

        "The music business will be revitalized by musicians, not the labels or Live Nation. When the musicians decide to put music first, instead of money, the public will flock to the fruits and the scene will be healthy again."

        - Bob Lefsetz, The Lefsetz Letter

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by E-money View Post


          Everybody is entitled to an opinion; but you're so wrong it's not even funny. The original stereo mixes for Pepper were goofy. That panning was terrible.
          Listen to the original stereo mix of Within You, Without You, and the remixed version, one after the other, and tell me which one is the better mix, and listening experience.

          One or two of the tracks sound 'different' in a marginally interesting way - LSD and ADitL spring to mind. But the rest of it is pure schlock. May as well listen to Miley Cyrus.

          And that's not to denigrate Giles Martin, or his chops. I WISH I could get a gig mixing Miley Cyrus.

          The fact is that the record was already a perfect piece of art, funky panning and all. There is a polish on the remixes that rather dulls the raw and realistic sonics of things like George's guitars and Paul's bass playing. That rawness is part of what made the record so great in the first place. It's immediate, and Sir George's arrangements and mixes (ably informed and assisted by the band themselves) only serve to highlight the pop genius that the 4 of them were able to achieve together from their basic skiffle band fundamentals.

          I've nothing against reworkings or reinterpretations of great art at all (Dub Side of the Moon and the Rodeohead medley spring to mind as two great examples), but these remixes just don't do it for me.

          Maybe I need to put on my flares, drop some acid, and listen to the 5.1 versions.
          Last edited by gubu; 05-30-2017, 09:18 AM.
          flip the phase

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          • #50
            Originally posted by gubu View Post

            Listen to the original stereo mix of Within You, Without You, and the remixed version, one after the other, and tell me which one is the better mix, and listening experience.

            One or two of the tracks sound 'different' in a marginally interesting way - LSD and ADitL spring to mind. But the rest of it is pure schlock. May as well listen to Miley Cyrus.

            And that's not to denigrate Giles Martin, or his chops. I WISH I could get a gig mixing Miley Cyrus.

            The fact is that the record was already a perfect piece of art, funky panning and all. There is a polish on the remixes that rather dulls the raw and realistic sonics of things like George's guitars and Paul's bass playing. That rawness is part of what made the record so great in the first place. It's immediate, and Sir George's arrangements and mixes (ably informed and assisted by the band themselves) only serve to highlight the pop genius that the 4 of them were able to achieve together from their basic skiffle band fundamentals.

            I've nothing against reworkings or reinterpretations of great art at all (Dub Side of the Moon and the Rodeohead medley spring to mind as two great examples), but these remixes just don't do it for me.

            Maybe I need to put on my flares, drop some acid, and listen to the 5.1 versions.
            Nope, just get your ears checked. Old age is a bitch.
            __________________________________________________
            Politics are like sports, where both teams suck

            Maybe we can all just agree that Bush was stupid and Cheney was lying and call it a day. - guitarcapo

            Originally posted by Grumpy_Polecat View Post
            For the record: Hitler using gas to exterminate his presumed enemies does not equal the use of chemical weapons.
            Reprehensible as it was, gassing was a conventional and accepted method for execution at the time. It is a stretch to equivocate the two.

            Comment


            • gubu
              gubu commented
              Editing a comment



          • #51
            Originally posted by gubu View Post

            Listen to the original stereo mix of Within You, Without You, and the remixed version, one after the other, and tell me which one is the better mix, and listening experience.

            One or two of the tracks sound 'different' in a marginally interesting way - LSD and ADitL spring to mind. But the rest of it is pure schlock. May as well listen to Miley Cyrus.

            And that's not to denigrate Giles Martin, or his chops. I WISH I could get a gig mixing Miley Cyrus.

            The fact is that the record was already a perfect piece of art, funky panning and all. There is a polish on the remixes that rather dulls the raw and realistic sonics of things like George's guitars and Paul's bass playing. That rawness is part of what made the record so great in the first place. It's immediate, and Sir George's arrangements and mixes (ably informed and assisted by the band themselves) only serve to highlight the pop genius that the 4 of them were able to achieve together from their basic skiffle band fundamentals.

            I've nothing against reworkings or reinterpretations of great art at all (Dub Side of the Moon and the Rodeohead medley spring to mind as two great examples), but these remixes just don't do it for me at all.

            Maybe I need to put on my flares, drop some acid, and listen to the 5.1 versions.
            Actually, the stereo mix was never a "perfect piece of art" and that was part of the problem. It was the mix most of us grew up with, but it was never exactly what the artist intended. This is an attempt to get back to that original intent, to some degree, while modernizing the sound a bit.

            The band didn't "ably assist" on the stereo mix BTW. They were there for the mono but not for the stereo. Also, the engineers spent something like three weeks for the mono mix and then three days on the stereo

            For some people with 50 years of listening to one mix, anything else will be sacrilege. I have never liked the stereo remixes of Help! and Rubber Soul that were made in 1987 even though my objective self knows that they are, in many ways, superior.

            For me, the new mix is jarring at times, but the increases in clarity and detail makes me a new fan of the album.

            As far as the surround mix goes? Depends on your tastes and expectations. Personally I would have pushed the limits further. Surround fans are a niche market anyway, so why not be more aggressive to please them?

            But, Within You, Without You is a stand out track in surround. With the Indian instruments in the front and the orchestra in the rears, its sounds great cranked way up. It sounds like I'm sitting right next to the sitar player

            The surround mixes of A Day In The Life and Strawberry Fields Forever are also quite good.
            Last edited by guido61; 05-30-2017, 09:39 AM.
            ______________

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            • #52
              It is my understanding, however, that this new remix will eventually replace the old one at least in terms of what is available at streaming sites. Not sure about physical media (however long we are still around with that anyway).

              Apparently Paul, Ringo, Olivia and Yoko are all quite pleased with it.
              ______________

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              • #53
                Originally posted by guido61 View Post
                It is my understanding, however, that this new remix will eventually replace the old one at least in terms of what is available at streaming sites. Not sure about physical media (however long we are still around with that anyway).

                Apparently Paul, Ringo, Olivia and Yoko are all quite pleased with it.

                Ringo should be pleased as punch because his drums sound fantastic.

                He does some beat changes on Fixing a Hole that I never noticed on the original mono or stereo mix.

                __________________________________________________
                Politics are like sports, where both teams suck

                Maybe we can all just agree that Bush was stupid and Cheney was lying and call it a day. - guitarcapo

                Originally posted by Grumpy_Polecat View Post
                For the record: Hitler using gas to exterminate his presumed enemies does not equal the use of chemical weapons.
                Reprehensible as it was, gassing was a conventional and accepted method for execution at the time. It is a stretch to equivocate the two.

                Comment


                • #54
                  Originally posted by guido61 View Post
                  It is my understanding, however, that this new remix will eventually replace the old one at least in terms of what is available at streaming sites.
                  Now THAT is something I'm not really in favor of.

                  Again, I have not heard the new mixes yet, but even if they're amazing, it's revisionist to make that the only version that's available. People should be able to hear the original mixes, or at the very least, the 2009 stereo and mono remasters, which keep those original mixes while cleaning the sonics up a bit...

                  Not sure about physical media (however long we are still around with that anyway).

                  Apparently Paul, Ringo, Olivia and Yoko are all quite pleased with it.
                  As Giles said in an interview I read (and posted a link to in the Studio Trenches), if they weren't, then they wouldn't have been released. They were his "bosses", and they had to be happy with it, or it was a no-go.

                  **********

                  "Look at it this way: think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize half of 'em are stupider than that."

                  - George Carlin

                  "It shouldn't be expected that people are necessarily doing what they appear to be doing on records."

                  - Sir George Martin, All You Need Is Ears

                  "The music business will be revitalized by musicians, not the labels or Live Nation. When the musicians decide to put music first, instead of money, the public will flock to the fruits and the scene will be healthy again."

                  - Bob Lefsetz, The Lefsetz Letter

                  Comment


                  • #55
                    In regard to the original mix and its perceived peculiarities I think it is important to recall the context of the time in which it was done. While the technological limitations of the era are obvious, perhaps the bigger matter is one of 'what was going on in modern music as a whole?' This was after all still the psychedelic era, when doing weird things for the sheer purpose of being weird was in vogue and stereo recording production was a burgeoning technology.

                    The comparison seems akin to putting a 1917 T-Model Ford up against a 1967 Cobra.

                    That said, I still think the engineering of Are You Experienced? (same year as Sgt Pepper) is absolutely masterful and I wouldn't muck about with either of them.
                    gp

                    'Words empty as the wind are best left unsaid.' --Homer (Not Dan Castellaneta,the other one)

                    The above is not to be taken too seriously.

                    Comment


                    • #56
                      How is the panning on Sgt Pepper any goofier than the panning on Revolver? Maybe they can just hire George Lucas to redo the whole canon.

                      Comment


                      • Zooey
                        Zooey commented
                        Editing a comment
                        After typing this I had to go back and listen to Revolver. "Good Day Sunshine" sounds like stereo drums, but oddly panned. I guess there is a drum overdub in addition to the original drum track.

                    • #57
                      Originally posted by Phil O'Keefe View Post

                      Now THAT is something I'm not really in favor of.

                      Again, I have not heard the new mixes yet, but even if they're amazing, it's revisionist to make that the only version that's available. People should be able to hear the original mixes, or at the very least, the 2009 stereo and mono remasters, which keep those original mixes while cleaning the sonics up a bit...




                      Yeah, I guess the idea is that there can only effectively be one version available for streaming. We wouldn't want to confuse Alexa.

                      As far as availability goes, there are already 8 gazillion copies of the original mix in print between the 1987 and 2009 CDs, So it's not like it will completely disappear even if it eventually goes out of print. Should be easily available to those who want it and if, for some reason, they don't already have it.

                      And for future generations, for whom this new mix is mostly intended, they won't know the difference and certainly won't be missing anything if they never hear the original. Just like those of us who grew up completely unfamiliar with the original mono never felt like we missed out on anything even though the mono mix is generally hailed as "definitive".

                      For me, it's always about the music and reaching people with it. If this new version helps to reach new listeners who otherwise might not bother, then its all good. Which I'm sure is exactly what the Beatles are hoping for. They don't really need to impress the people who already think the album was perfect.
                      Last edited by guido61; 05-30-2017, 10:49 AM.
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                      • #58
                        Originally posted by gubu View Post
                        If Sir George Martin were alive today, he'd give his son a deserved slap upside the head.
                        You obviously haven't heard the "Love" remixes done while George was still alive! Those are way over the top. They have stereo, center panned drums just like the new mixes. However, they were never presented as the official album, so I guess it's a different story.

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                        • #59
                          Originally posted by Phil O'Keefe View Post

                          Now THAT is something I'm not really in favor of.

                          Again, I have not heard the new mixes yet, but even if they're amazing, it's revisionist to make that the only version that's available. People should be able to hear the original mixes, or at the very least, the 2009 stereo and mono remasters, which keep those original mixes while cleaning the sonics up a bit...



                          As Giles said in an interview I read (and posted a link to in the Studio Trenches), if they weren't, then they wouldn't have been released. They were his "bosses", and they had to be happy with it, or it was a no-go.
                          Big 10-4 on the historical value.

                          Three examples come to mind:

                          The original version of 'Sure Got Cold After the Rain' from Rio Grande Mud is vastly different from the Six Pack release. Both are still available, however.

                          Zappa's 'Cruising With Reuben and The Jets' as a 'redo' is terrible and just sounds all wrong. I don't know of any sources for the original other then vinyl.

                          This last example is a bit different. 'The Bomber' from the James Gang Rides Again included a passage from Bolero, which was deemed a copyright infringement and only could be heard on the first (limited) release. It was quickly redone with that part deleted and for many years the original was nowhere to be heard other than those early LPs. Now, Bolero is back and the other version exists only on physical media.

                          In all cases I think it is of historical significance that ALL versions can be heard.


                          By the way, ever wonder what Billie Holiday's voice REALLY sounded like?
                          gp

                          'Words empty as the wind are best left unsaid.' --Homer (Not Dan Castellaneta,the other one)

                          The above is not to be taken too seriously.

                          Comment


                          • E-money
                            E-money commented
                            Editing a comment
                            I LOVE the Bolero version of The Bomber.
                            I love the non-Bolero version too, but not as much.

                        • #60
                          Originally posted by Zooey View Post

                          You obviously haven't heard the "Love" remixes done while George was still alive! Those are way over the top. They have stereo, center panned drums just like the new mixes. However, they were never presented as the official album, so I guess it's a different story.

                          The 5.1 mix of "Love" is AMAZING. But it was created to be a soundtrack for a circus performance, so all of that makes sense.

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