Members ermghoti II Posted July 12, 2009 Members Share Posted July 12, 2009 Do you even know what you just said? Totally contradicted yourself in one sentence... Learn to read. There are Federal laws governing the display of flags. There are no penalties for violating those laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted July 12, 2009 Moderators Share Posted July 12, 2009 A Parable on Responsibility You are stuck in a deep dark hole. Above you, you can see different kinds of people walking by. You shout up to them and they wave and walk by. You get angry and start to blame and damn them for your being stuck in the hole. They still just wave and walk by. Determined, you start to yell at them and to damn them even more virulently. Some now stop to listen. One agrees with you and says that he will go and write a law against people being in holes and leaves. Another lowers down some water and commiserates with you but does nothing to get you out. Still another starts yelling along with you at others as they pass by. Of all the reactions you get, none helps you to get out of the hole. You start to think that there must be something wrong with you. You now start to damn yourself for being in the hole. However, this form of damning doesn't help you get out either. But you are at least persistent and now continue to damn those above and yourself as well. Yet, despite all your best efforts, you remain in the hole. One day an old man with a long white beard stops by your hole. Waiting for a break in your whining, he finally asks "Can you stand to know the truth?" You reply that since you can stand being in the hole, you can stand anything. The old man replies, "Then I will tell you the only way out of your hole." "First, you are right to hold others as responsible for your being in the hole, though certainly not all who pass by. Others not only dug your hole for you, they also threw you in it. And far worse, they taught you to damn whoever is responsible." "Why shouldn't I damn them? Why shouldn't I complain? You even agree that they put me here to begin with!" "Because that is the hole. It does not matter if you are damning them or yourself--that is the hole. Yes, they are responsible for digging the hole in the first place. Yes, they are responsible for throwing you in the hole in the first place. But only you are or can be responsible for your staying in the hole right now." "How can that be? Why don't you just lift me out?" "Because you would fall back in as soon as you started to damn those who threw you in the first time." "But if they are responsible then why shouldn't I damn them." "This is the key to your getting out and staying out of the hole: responsibility does NOT equal or excuse damning. It doesn't matter if you damn them or yourself--either one will recreate the hole around you!" "It sounds like you want me to be responsible for my own problems when you admit that they did do me wrong. How can that work?" "They are responsible for putting you there in the first place as they raised, educated, and trained you for the hole. But only you are responsible as an adult for staying there." "How can I be responsible and they be responsible and no one gets any blame?" "Responsibility or accountability are NOT the same as damning. Once you can see them as responsible without damning them, and yourself as responsible without damning yourself, then and only then will you live outside the hole." "What you say just doesn't feel right." "The hole is a wonderful trap that becomes a habit, and whatever you practice a lot feels right. You are in the hole if you damn them and you are in the hole if you damn yourself. So you feel like you are trapped. But the trap is only in your mind. Separate responsibility from damning. Practice total acceptance of self and others with mistakes and wrongs." "I just don't get it." "Let me try once more. Not only did they dig your hole and throw you in your hole, they made it certain that you would never get out of your hole. They made you your own prisoner by teaching you that if you do bad you are bad and if you are responsible for bad then you are bad. Now, you won't face your own responsibility for staying in the hole because that supposedly makes you bad according to your inherited logic. As a result, you now keep yourself in the hole NOT them--they don't have to." "That just sounds like you want to blame me!" "You just proved my point. Quite an ingenious trap isn't it? Let your mind work on what I said. I have to go now. Good luck sorting it out." MORAL OF THE STORYThe moral of the story is that responsibility without damning self or others is freedom and responsibility with self-damning and-or other-damning is the prison, the hole. PROBLEMSThe problem is that others are responsible for leading you astray. So you feel self-righteous and damn them. And so dig the hole for yourself The problem is also that you think you are responsible as you must be stupid, defective, or somehow inferior. Again, you dig the hole by damning. The problem is also that since responsibility equals damning for you, you cannot face your responsibility to dig yourself out of the hole as it is too painful, it is only more of the hole for you. The problem is that no matter which way you turn the issue of responsibility, it will only lead to the hole of damning for you. The problem is that you would rather damn them than damn yourself as for you it is either-or: someone must be damned so it might as well be them. The problem is damning will never be peace, love, understanding, forgiveness, happiness, freedom, play, creativity, joy, discovery, flow, fun. The problem is you must be responsible for your responses and you cannot be for you are damned if you are and damned if you aren't. TRAP OF TRAPSThe worst trap of this trap is that you now want to dig holes for others as your way of getting out of your hole! You have become them! "No one can rescue you but you." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jasonbmerrill Posted July 12, 2009 Members Share Posted July 12, 2009 jeez that was the worst written parable ive ever read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted July 12, 2009 Moderators Share Posted July 12, 2009 Well, I can't take responsibility for its challenged prose... but I'm sure capable of seeing underlying truth in it. The kind of truth that make both sides of this argument look kind of silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Adey Posted July 12, 2009 Members Share Posted July 12, 2009 Made perfect sense to me too. I think it says a lot about the problems of society. Me being part of that problem/society of coarse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members the stranger Posted July 12, 2009 Members Share Posted July 12, 2009 Well, I can't take responsibility for its challenged prose... but I'm sure capable of seeing underlying truth in it. The kind of truth that make both sides of this argument look kind of silly. And perhaps the man is trying to show others the hole they are in by his display of dissent. Is it really a hole, or do we all choose the path in which we walk? Perhaps the man in on a hill and everybody else is in the hole, yet we are trapped in a perceptional error? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ryst Posted July 12, 2009 Members Share Posted July 12, 2009 So shouldn't it also be illegal for one to get upset? I mean, he hardly caused a disruption. The disruption was from the people who chose to be upset over it. It was a choice they made. They caused the disruption by their reaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jasonbmerrill Posted July 12, 2009 Members Share Posted July 12, 2009 the parable makes sense - but it just sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Coaster Posted July 12, 2009 Members Share Posted July 12, 2009 futurama - freedom day episode; a taste of freedom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Taste_of_Freedom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ernest Buckley Posted July 13, 2009 Members Share Posted July 13, 2009 Too many have died for the flag. Better men than me. It should be respected. +1 I completely agree. I`m just guessing here but most of you probably never served your country. Hundreds of thousands of men gave their lives so you could post your idiotic responses here on the Internet. Some of you may see it as a flag but to many it is a symbol of the lives lost and the cost of freedom which thankfully most here have no concept of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Phait Posted July 13, 2009 Author Members Share Posted July 13, 2009 They didn't serve for a flag, they served for a country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members eventArgs Posted July 13, 2009 Members Share Posted July 13, 2009 Might move to that town... crime rate must be pretty low if police can have 4 officers tied up on upside-down flag duty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sventvkg Posted July 13, 2009 Members Share Posted July 13, 2009 Learn to read. There are Federal laws governing the display of flags. There are no penalties for violating those laws. You learn to {censored}ing read Moron...ANY Federal Law that violates your Constitutional rights is NULL AND VOID. Freedom of expression. You can fly a flag however you want. You can also make an invalid law restricting the right to fly the flag you want but nothing supersedes the Constitution. {censored}ing tell me to learn to read...Maybe you should read the Bill of Rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members eventArgs Posted July 13, 2009 Members Share Posted July 13, 2009 Yeah, man. You Americans sure are touchy when it comes to the flag. I mean it's a {censored}ing flag. Give me a God damn break. Apparently also a little touchy about the reading ability... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Huh? Posted July 13, 2009 Members Share Posted July 13, 2009 They didn't serve for a flag, they served for a country. Bull{censored}. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cheezusbhrist Posted July 13, 2009 Members Share Posted July 13, 2009 i had an upside down flag in my room from 2001-2008 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ryst Posted July 13, 2009 Members Share Posted July 13, 2009 +1I completely agree. I`m just guessing here but most of you probably never served your country. Hundreds of thousands of men gave their lives so you could post your idiotic responses here on the Internet. Some of you may see it as a flag but to many it is a symbol of the lives lost and the cost of freedom which thankfully most here have no concept of. Respect and breaking the law are 2 completely different things. Our own government doesn't even respect the flag or the constitution in many ways. (I don't want to get into that conversation) but I think this country is on the verge of fascism is many ways and things like this just push us more and more to that direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members spokenward Posted July 13, 2009 Members Share Posted July 13, 2009 The GPS ruling that is mentioned in the original post can be found here. The context of the particular case is well described. The three judge panel also describes the failure of the State Legislature to write better law regarding limits on the use of GPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sventvkg Posted July 13, 2009 Members Share Posted July 13, 2009 Apparently also a little touchy about the reading ability... I don't need to hear condescending bull{censored}. That's what pissed me off. I know the constitution very very well. It's one of my passions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members the stranger Posted July 13, 2009 Members Share Posted July 13, 2009 +1I completely agree. I`m just guessing here but most of you probably never served your country. Hundreds of thousands of men gave their lives so you could post your idiotic responses here on the Internet. Some of you may see it as a flag but to many it is a symbol of the lives lost and the cost of freedom which thankfully most here have no concept of. I did serve. I did serve in peacetime, but I did my part. And the federal government are tyrannical fascists working overtime to dismantle every last fiber of The US Constitution and The Bill of Rights. And every last man who died to protect those freedoms is rolling in his grave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ermghoti II Posted July 13, 2009 Members Share Posted July 13, 2009 I don't need to hear condescending bull{censored}. That's what pissed me off. I know the constitution very very well. It's one of my passions. Too bad reading comprehension is not among your passions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ernest Buckley Posted July 13, 2009 Members Share Posted July 13, 2009 They didn't serve for a flag, they served for a country. To many, the flag is a symbol of freedom, of the USA. I`m not going to go back and forth with you, just realize you have absolutely no idea what the price of freedom is. No idea. Just keep typing away Phait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jasonbmerrill Posted July 13, 2009 Members Share Posted July 13, 2009 To many, the flag is a symbol of freedom, of the USA. I`m not going to go back and forth with you, just realize you have absolutely no idea what the price of freedom is. No idea. Just keep typing away Phait. wow so much propoganda in one post. amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Wide Posted July 13, 2009 Members Share Posted July 13, 2009 +1I completely agree. I`m just guessing here but most of you probably never served your country. Hundreds of thousands of men gave their lives so you could post your idiotic responses here on the Internet. Some of you may see it as a flag but to many it is a symbol of the lives lost and the cost of freedom which thankfully most here have no concept of. You forgot the "you can't handle the truth" bit at the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Huh? Posted July 13, 2009 Members Share Posted July 13, 2009 That's just it....so it is not illegal to hang it upside down or maybe even burn it ....I do not know what the actual laws are. Common sense tells one that it is a symbol, that men have died trying to protect it and the country it represents...on and on....so at the very least, if you can handle it....just give it some respect. It is an easy thing to do, it won't kill you, won't get in the way of the next bong hit or guitar practice session yada yada.....just leave it alone. That is just it though....the lack of common sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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