J.Backlund design announces new Korean made models!

[axegrinder]

 

Originally Posted by soundcreation

Since this is obviously a shot at me...

I haven't said a thing about "america first" in this thread.

I do believe ultimately that if you want to improve things at home then keeping as many jobs at home as possible is a logical step.

But if one were to outsource then they should at least have a minimal ethical responsibility to see that their product is manufactured responsibly. Would you not agree with this?

You all can claim that this is "just getting political" but we all know that's a cop out.

A lazy way of saying "I don't want to deal with it"...."I'd rather just place my order and not think about where the product I'm buying comes from and how it's made".

Again...your choice.

 

It wasn't a shot at you as much as it was a shot at RavenCAD. It was late last night after a long day in the sun for too long. I wasn't taking the easy way out as much as I was respecting Frets' request in this specific thread to leave politics out of it.

I am guilty of bipartisan perception of what people say. I could have it wrong but RavenCAD strikes me as a Nobama, teaparty, right-wing, anti-regulation, gun advocate. He proclaims America first whenever he can and I respect that fully. Most people who are against outsourcing are usually anti-union which is what drives up wages and costs to manufacturers. To hear that very person question the rights of workers in ANOTHER country strikes me at first as hypocritical... pro-regulation abroad but anti-regulation stateside. But perhaps his is a paradoxical stance.

PLEASE don't respond to this as I was only trying to explain where I was coming from without copping out.

[axegrinder]

 

Originally Posted by soundcreation

...this is an issue I think gets ignored for convenience sake. It's so easy just hit up these factories overseas and think nothing more of it.

I mean are there absolutely NO other options available? Does Godin not do this kind of thing? Or would they if asked? Warmoth? I know he could get them made in Japan at the Terada factory or the Fujigen factory. Godin puts out pretty cheap guitars made in N America.

Anyway....it's their decision. I would just hope at the very least they try to find out some information about the working conditions at the factory they intend to use, in Korea. Hopefully it's a decent place to work.

 

You know, I've seen footage and heard of situations in Japan where workers live in cold, dank, factory housing that resembles the inner-city projects in America. Wouldn't you question an American company outsourcing to Japan? They may have a systemic failure by your logic.

[9-Pin-Phoenix]

FYI - I Googled "Unsung Guitar Factory Working Conditions". The first hit was related to the well documented situation at Cort. All the remaining hits had to do with which factory produced the best Korean guitars, and unsung guitar heroes. YMMV

[RaVenCAD]

 

Originally Posted by Bruce Bennett

Man, it is Costing REAL PEOPLE RIGHT NOW.. ME and my partners for starters ! and even John too!

how many American made guitars do you currently own and did you buy them used or new?

better yet how much American made stuff of any kind do you currently own that you bought new? and remember "used" doesn't count.

the people that have known me for a long time here know that I fought HARD to get people to BUY AMERICAN.. but NO they "Just couldnt' afford it"

so now the little whiners can suck it up and watch their jobs leave. EXACTLY AS I PREDICTED years ago.

Godin said "No"

Zion said "maybe" but they would cost the same as us doing it. so no beneifit.

everyone kept scream'in "we want nothing less than World class guitars at CHEAP prices"

that spells K.o.r.e.a... no way around that. they won't pay American Labor rates, and if you think 75K is a lot of money, then you don't even want to know what it would cost to do what Gibson is doing with the 500 units per day and 3 models of Loss Leaders..

yes thats right 3 models don't make a Gibson a DIME and the ONLY reasons they make them is.

1. to keep 650 workers working.

2. to keep entry level buyers buying "Gibsons" and not something asian made.

If I could, I would, but the amount of cash to do that is beyond anything, short of winning a MAJOR lottery. ( over 300 mill to start and nearly a mill a day, just to keep it running)

 

To answer your question first, I own a mia Gibson, a mia Carvin, a mij Charvel and a mim Fender. The Fender is the only one that was used.

All of those combined cost me far less than what you want to charge for an unproven custom design. Yes, I love the look of john's designs, but until they're established in the market place, your pricing is the absoute height of arrogance. And now you want to call me a whiner because I wasn't willing to throw $4-5k+ at a guitar the may or may not just be a beautiful wall hanger? To that, I say {censored} you Bruce. {censored} you and I look forward to watching you fail.

John, I urge you to find a better business partner if you want to make this venture work.

[axegrinder]

 

Originally Posted by RaVenCAD

your pricing is the absoute height of arrogance. And now you want to call me a whiner because I wasn't willing to throw $4-5k+ at a guitar the may or may not just be a beautiful wall hanger? To that, I say {censored} you Bruce. {censored} you and I look forward to watching you fail.

 

That's the spirit!

[RaVenCAD]

 

Originally Posted by axegrinder

That's the spirit!

 

It helps it you quote the entire thing...

[axegrinder]

 

Originally Posted by RaVenCAD

It helps it you quote the entire thing...

 

It helps at doing what? I was complimenting your resortment to personal attacks and foul language toward a post that wasn't directed at you.

[RaVenCAD]

 

Originally Posted by axegrinder

It helps at doing what? I was complimenting your resortment to personal attacks and foul language toward a post that wasn't directed at you.

 

But it was directed at me. I was one it those people that told Bruce no, his price was too high. So yes, it was directed at me when he said:

"the people that have known me for a long time here know that I fought HARD to get people to BUY AMERICAN.. but NO they "Just couldnt' afford it" so now the little whiners can suck it up and watch their jobs leave. EXACTLY AS I PREDICTED years ago."

So I stand by my previous post.

[Virtual Pariah]

 

Originally Posted by soundcreation

Everything you guys have been talking about only comes from an American perspective. "What's the effect on US jobs?" "What's the effect on the US economy?" "Building in Korea will cost jobs for US workers" "No it won't...it will create jobs"...and on and on. All legitimate questions mind you....but completely ignoring the question of what's happening in the factories of Korea.

He said it's not the cort factory...which has a history of labor abuse. And that's a great thing. But has he investigated the factory that they did choose...to see if they are treating their workers fairly? Or did they just meet with some factory manager who said "yeah sure we can build you those guitars at that price...no problem"..."OK...deal"...? Not giving any thought to HOW this factory can provide guitars at such a price.

I think Korea is ethically a much better place to build guitars than China, or Indonesia....but the Cort incident just goes to show that there are obviously serious problems still in Korea's manufacturing industry. I don't think it's unfair to conclude that factories in Korea are probably all going to along the same lines. Putting workers on impossible quota systems, where pay is with held if they don't reach certain numbers. Low safety standards...etc...all the issues that came out with the cort incident. All these problems exist in a much much lower way by building in the US, or Canada, or Japan.

Did they even go to Korea and inspect the factory? Did they interview any workers at the factory privately away from management to find out if they are being treated fairly?

Do they even care? Do you even care?

I do. So that's why I'm critical of any company that uses countries with documented histories of worker abuse. And I think its TOTALLY appropriate to bring up in a thread like this. Fair is Fair. If he wants to use a forum like this to promote his product and drum up support from users, then I think he has an obligation to address the questions and criticisms that people may have. Or is harmony central just suppose to offer unconditional support no matter what anyone wants to do?

 

Sure it's appropriate to bring up here. Like I figure, discussion is a good thing IMO.

[axegrinder]

 

Originally Posted by RaVenCAD

But it was directed at me. I was one it those people that told Bruce no, his price was too high. So yes, it was directed at me when he said:

"the people that have known me for a long time here know that I fought HARD to get people to BUY AMERICAN.. but NO they "Just couldnt' afford it" so now the little whiners can suck it up and watch their jobs leave. EXACTLY AS I PREDICTED years ago."

So I stand by my previous post.

 

I took what Bruce said as a commentary toward American attitudes toward domestic products and pricing IN GENERAL. You are one of the few who actually buy American more fervently than the rest. So I take it he wasn't attacking you as much as he was attacking the rest of us (and I take no offense). From my perspective you guys are cut from the same cloth.

In the end the free market place is what leads people to do what they gotta do to make things work. If John's designs are to make an impact, the company has decided they'll have to increase volume. I don't think any of us are in a better position than them to criticize their assessment of the situation.

[spacequixote]

 

Originally Posted by Kevman

In before "cheap Asian {censored}".

 

I just wanted to highlight the foresight of this post.

Too bad people couldn't just honor Frets' request to keep it on topic. This was actually a quite civil and informative discussion until RaVenCad lost his temper (not all that surprising perhaps). Other than the Cort situation, there is nothing that implicates Unsung. I think they could have done a lot worse than Korea, and I don't think they did any worse than the companies that manufactured the computer you are typing on. Again, I am not saying we shouldn't look out for working conditions abroad, but I think your attitude towards outsourcing is naive and your anger severely misplaced. Would have liked to see RaVenCad's response to my earlier post, but after seeing how he responds maybe I shouldn't.

[scolfax]

Thanks for crapping all over the thread guys. All some of us wanted to to was talk about the new Retronix R-800's.

Not saying it shouldn't be discussed by any means (ala TGP), but you could have started another thread for it, just to be polite. Also out of respect for Frets.

[nicholai]

I'm voting for the mods removing the rude comments. It's one thing to discuss options, it's another to {censored} on a thread after being yelled at. Discussion can and should be had, like, we want the piano bridge, but an attack on a factory with no bad rep is just bad taste especially in an announcement post. PM it or newthread?

John and Bruce, congrats on another milestone and if I had 4 grand I'd attempt to get you guys to make one with a neck small enough for me. (I will certainly try them at the store and maybe it's a fit)

Bruce, I bet a video of the guitars being played will go far for you, I understand details are scarce but that could cover quite a few headaches from the gate.

John, I may have to donate just to get one of those flower posters, great art man.

[joemonkey]

 

Originally Posted by RaVenCAD

To answer your question first, I own a mia Gibson, a mia Carvin, a mij Charvel and a mim Fender. The Fender is the only one that was used.

All of those combined cost me far less than what you want to charge for an unproven custom design. Yes, I love the look of john's designs, but until they're established in the market place, your pricing is the absoute height of arrogance. And now you want to call me a whiner because I wasn't willing to throw $4-5k+ at a guitar the may or may not just be a beautiful wall hanger? To that, I say {censored} you Bruce. {censored} you and I look forward to watching you fail.

John, I urge you to find a better business partner if you want to make this venture work.

 

Who butthurt you so bad, little dove?

[John Backlund]

With a membership as enormous as Harmony Central's, it's to be expected that there will be opinions expressed on any subject that will cover the spectrum. I don't expect that this topic will be any different and I'm not going to get all butthurt about it when it gets a little rough. I'm happy to be where I am in life, and I'm happy that I was able to come up with something that, with the help, foresight, and expertise of several other tallented people, might just be of some significance one day, at least in my little world.

If things work out, who knows, we might even be able to make things a little better for people half way around the world if we can gain some influence in that regard. But we have to get the guitars off the ground first, then better things will follow for all involved.

[billybilly]

 

Originally Posted by RaVenCAD

But it was directed at me. I was one it those people that told Bruce no, his price was too high. So yes, it was directed at me when he said:

"the people that have known me for a long time here know that I fought HARD to get people to BUY AMERICAN.. but NO they "Just couldnt' afford it" so now the little whiners can suck it up and watch their jobs leave. EXACTLY AS I PREDICTED years ago."

So I stand by my previous post.

 

Must you be so argumentative and a general pain in the ass all the time? What happened to you? You used to have decent posts.

[jjpistols]

 

Originally Posted by John Backlund

With a membership as enormous as Harmony Central's, it's to be expected that there will be opinions expressed on any subject that will cover the spectrum. I don't expect that this topic will be any different and I'm not going to get all butthurt about it when it gets a little rough. I'm happy to be where I am in life, and I'm happy that I was able to come up with something that, with the help, foresight, and expertise of several other tallented people, might just be of some significance one day, at least in my little world.

If things work out, who knows, we might even be able to make things a little better for people half way around the world if we can gain some influence in that regard. But we have to get the guitars off the ground first, then better things will follow for all involved.

 

I would love to see you make a fortune doing something you love and are so talented at. I wish the same for Bruce.

And for me.

[billythegoat]

Keep up the good work guys!

I want this one!!

[nicholai]

 

Originally Posted by jjpistols

I would love to see you make a fortune doing something you love and are so talented at. I wish the same for Bruce.

And for me.

 

......and for me.

[soundcreation]

 

Originally Posted by axegrinder

You know, I've seen footage and heard of situations in Japan where workers live in cold, dank, factory housing that resembles the inner-city projects in America. Wouldn't you question an American company outsourcing to Japan? They may have a systemic failure by your logic.

 

I won't get into this thread anymore as it's gone off the rails. As well, it's totally obvious that Bruce simply does not understand my point based on his response to my posts.

Anyway...I will finish by responding to this cause I think it is important.

Worker abuse exists in every country on earth. You maybe right about certain factories in Japan. But it's the same in the US as well. Look at the meat packing industry and it's treatment of mexican labor that the INDUSTRY sneaks across the border cause it doesn't want to pay Americans a fair wage.

But the fact remains that Japan has minimum wage laws, enforced safety standards, universal heath care, and a standard of living that proves that at it's worst it's still a better place to work than it's neighbors.

I personally try to MINIMIZE the harm I do when I purchase things. So yeah the US and Japan are for sure not perfect, but they are for sure a better option than Korea, China and Indonesia in terms of supporting better working conditions.

And yes I'm completely in favor of supporting even better rights for workers in places like Japan and the US.

[Kevman]

I just wanted to highlight the foresight of this post. Too bad people couldn't just honor Frets' request to keep it on topic. This was actually a quite civil and informative discussion until RaVenCad lost his temper (not all that surprising perhaps). Other than the Cort situation, there is nothing that implicates Unsung. I think they could have done a lot worse than Korea, and I don't think they did any worse than the companies that manufactured the computer you are typing on. Again, I am not saying we shouldn't look out for working conditions abroad, but I think your attitude towards outsourcing is naive and your anger severely misplaced. Would have liked to see RaVenCad's response to my earlier post, but after seeing how he responds maybe I shouldn't.

 

Btw, wtf about calling anyone a conservative as an insult? Guess what? Conservatism will win the day. Ask any guitar player which designs are best. We are conservative by nature and by design.

 

Like we didn't all see this from miles away.

From a political standpoint: Free market solutions are the ONLY way the USA is gonna not be Greece.

If your free market solution includes labor or anything else being sourced outside the USA its OK by me. The US labor force seems to have priced themselves out of the equation of the mid range guitar market for now. Compete and WIN. COMPETE TO WIN. GO John, Go Bruce.

[axegrinder]

soundcreation, I understand your concerns. I honestly am not educated on the subject. I don't exactly have my head in the sand, but other than the Cort situation (which didn't involve the government afaik) I haven't heard of child labor and systemic injustice in South Korea. Actually they strike me as a happy society. I am not sure it's fair to lump them in with China and Indonesia (and yeah I could be wrong). The craftsmanship I have personally seen come out of that country does not smack of any sort of oppression. Besides the strides they have made in the manufacturing sector, they sure as hell can churn out female golfers.

[spacequixote]

To get back on topic, I think the design will suffer without the piano bridge and look much more generic, but if you absolutely can't make it work, maybe a string-through configuration with a top plate mirroring the pick guard "swoop" would be a compromise? I'm thinking about something similar as what's found on some Flying V guitars, although it would be custom piece to build, so it might not be much cheaper than the piano bridge to begin with.

I really love the retro-future look, even though I'm usually bothered by blatant non-functional design elements. Hope the project takes off!

[DaveAronow]

John, Bruce, I have been a huge fan of John's art since the first guitar drawings he posted a while back. I absolutely love his style with that nod to an age that gave us it's own idea of what the future was supposed to look like. In all of the art from that style I have ever seen, John does it as well or better than anyone else I have ever seen, whether it is a guitar, a T.V. Set or any of the other drawings he has done.

 

It is SO cool to see these drawings coming to life in the guitars that are being built from them.

 

A hand made Bennet built guitar would be out of my reach for now, although I can certainly see paying that much for something this off the charts custom, unique and as artistically minded in design.

 

Also VERY cool to be making a version that dudes like me can afford and will happily buy as soon as they are available.

 

Personally, I am waiting for the announcement of any one of my personal favorite Backlund designs, which might include three or four different drawings that I loved first before the others. I don't know the names of them but I'll find out and tell y'all which ones are my favorite. When a any of them become available, I will be the first one on the list to pick one up and I hill happily help promote the guitars to anyone and everyone I can. I am a big fan of these designs.

 

I have a decent amount of exposure to people in that I do a couple hundred live shows a year ranging in audience side from a few dozen at bars, to a few, even many thousand at fairs, festivals, and as opening act for major concert events. I think it would be cool as hell to be playing one of these guitars born of art that I am,such a huge fan of, turned into reality from a team that I have watched since the beginning, or at least since it was brought to my attention with the first mentions of it here awhile back.

 

This is very cool to watch unfold and I can't wait to see you guys have huge success.

[spacequixote]

 

Btw, wtf about calling anyone a conservative as an insult? Guess what? Conservatism will win the day. Ask any guitar player which designs are best. We are conservative by nature and by design.

 

 

I'm with you on the rest of your post, but I'm not sure what or who you are referring to with this...?