Keyboard players - why so hard to find?

[rhat]

 

Originally Posted by SeniorBlues

Real Leslies can become addicting. You get so enthralled with the stop/start thing that you focus too much on that as a music device, instead of playing another chord or fill.

 

The way our band got around that was that we were so rehersed that you knew exactly when to hit the cut off button to have the thing just right where you needed Teh sound. It was almost like you were on auto pilot and knew exactly what beat to cut it off on....It was a 7 piece horn band that pretty well ran like a watch. Zero flex in the arrangments so timing the leslie got to be a no brainer.

[wades_keys]

 

Originally Posted by SeniorBlues

Cool . . .

Wish the camera had been on your side of the stage. Bass response tends to be better if the camera mic is closer to the bass speaker.

 

Our lead guitarist will never give up the spotlight to me.

I guess you'll just have to take it on faith that the bass was actually right in the mix - those little camera mics tend to always miss the bass frequencies, and as you might have gathered from my posts, I'm not a fan of sub bass frequencies in my mix.

 

Originally Posted by SeniorBlues

Curious why you didn't simply play the whole thing on keys.

Thanks for sharing.

 

Thanks.

I've considered that actually, and I might just go for that. The left hand part is challenging in a different kind of way - I'm really working the old thumb. Didn't get too many pieces like that as a kid taking piano lessons.

But I think you're right: I think I'm ready to make the leap to full on keys now on that tune.

Too bad I can't do the slick left hand comping mayo pulls off. Well, I CAN, but obviously not while banging out the bass line at the same time.

Man, I really need to woodshed more. Never enough time, or inspiration.

Wish I could buy a big chunk of either....Hmm, I'll take time for 500 Alex!

(gotta see the doc next week - been having chest pains. Worried about the old ticker.)

[wades_keys]

 

Originally Posted by SeniorBlues

Real Leslies can become addicting. You get so enthralled with the stop/start thing that you focus too much on that as a music device, instead of playing another chord or fill.

 

I'm only 41, but that drum Leslie in that old 1950's vacuum Lowrey reeled me in even as a kid.

Hell, I'd fool with spooling it up and down just because it sounded cool - well before I heard Jimmy Smith or Gregg Rolie working it.

Of course the real Leslie is unbeatable, but that drum still sounded pretty good and it was dam sight better and warmer than the {censored}ty electronic phaser crap tone on "transistor organs".

What happened I guess is Grandma got a new organ in the 70's and her old one found a home in my bedroom. I had some cool crap in my room for a 6 year old: a quadraphonic sound stereo system with an 8 track deck and a stack of tapes, my own terrarium and aquarium, and that bigass lowrey organ in the corner. I got grounded a lot for being a little wild ass, and so I always had time to play around on that old Lowrey.

It had the chord buttons off on the side, with the symbols (+, M, m) next to it, and I started teaching myself theory by ear and by interrogating my piano teacher LOL.

I seem to remember her trying to convince me to switch over to jazz: she was a fine, fine organist - probably one of the best in Louisville at the time and heavily used by the Catholic diocese for events and big masses.

Ruth Anne Pierce got me started in music. She didn't keep many students because she taught the old school method that took YEARS and many, many reps to progress - most of the kids got bored and wanted her to "show me how to play xx". Ruth Anne didn't roll that way - SHE set the curriculum, SHE had the doctorate in perfomance, SHE was the one that could humble pretty much anyone on keys, and it was all about respecting her skill and dedication and submitting to it.

She taught me a LOT, and I'm forever grateful for her influence on me, even though I can't say that I was one of her best students. Still, she saw fit to keep me in her program for 6 years....She'd kick your ass clean to the curb if you weren't with her program, but I think she kept me around, small hands and physical limitations and all, because I had a real hunger for music.

SO many of the other kids could just kick my ass technically but I've always had a pretty good ear for music and improvising.

I'll never forget when I got to grade 5 or so and she put me on the pop track because of my distaste for jazz and classical....THe deal was one classical tune and then one or more pop tunes of my choosing. So I picked "Against the Wind", bought the sheet music, and brought it to a lesson. Poor Ruth had never even heard of Bob Seger, but my God, she sightread that piece PERFECTLY, at EXACT TEMPO with so little effort it was just mind blowing.

That's pretty much when I knew that there is a way to conquer music of all styles and genres - you don't need to be a "rocker" to "rock" for example.

In fact she found that piece so easy, she used it as a platform to teach me page turning skills (I had to read the measures and turn the page at the appropriate time).

Then she went over to the organ and gave me a demonstration that blew my cranium through the roof - how it's really done, reading and playing 3 clefs of music with effortless fluid ease.

Ruth was a BEAST on organ and piano, the best sightreader I've ever seen, period. I wish I had 1/10th of her skill. I also remember that if you showed her good natural time, she would let you skip the 'nome drills.

I've always hated the 'nome and that was really cool of her to roll that way. She did punish me with it for a minute when I was about grade 2 or so, but after that she really expected her students to have good natural time. I notice that I don't always play in time, but I do pretty much always hear in time - I know when my physical movement isn't translating to the right beat - I can hear my {censored}ups.

Can't say that I've seen the same from a lot of other cats - she had quite a few really fast gifted players that had real issues with time and she'd work em on that 'nome - one of those chicks was in the lesson before mine and I'd always catch the last part of the deal while waiting for my turn.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by wades_keys

Stopping the rotors on a Leslie while you're playing it IS the sound of a Leslie.

Can't believe you don't know what he's talking about here - it's only been used by pretty much every decent B3 player on this planet.

 

Ah. I gotcha. Him saying "shutting down" threw me for a minute.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by rhat

I ,, but nothing , i mean nothing gives you that sound of having that leslie spooled up and shutting it down and that magic sound starts comming out when it reaches just the right speed. No way can i get that sound on my RD.... it just sounds square. LIke you said wade it is teh leslie sound.. I dont think you can really emulate it without that mechanical spool down. It defined rock organ from my point of view. You actually had to know how to time that spool down and know when to cut it off to have it at peak tweek right were you needed it. It was a bit of an artform in its own right.

 

The leslie simulator I use does that. It's an older one they stopped making years ago. Hard to find now, but you see one pop up once in awhile. It has separate controls for ramping up (or 'shutting down') and the speed.

http://clonewheel.ashbysolutions.com.../dynacord.html

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by SeniorBlues

If my audition works out (rescheduled for Tuesday), I can see that another keyboard will be necessary. In addition to all the piano, EP, B3, and synth parts, there will be plenty of string and horn parts to interpret . . . the "horn bitch" as Rhat put it. Seventy-six keys looks like a good idea and hopefully I won't have to bring a second board, but I can tell you that having a second manual is really handy for some rhythm patterns, and also allows you to reach up and grab a new voice with either hand.

I'm also thinking about semi-weighted, although the motif7 doesn't offer that option and I'm too old to carry 88 keys and all those extra voices.

 

I like 76-key keyboards for piano stuff. Trying to play two-handed piano parts on 61-keys and I'm always running out of keys and hitting the octave button mid-part. NOT good. But I've never any REAL need for those few extra notes on the top and bottom that 88-key keyboards provide over the 76-key models. Unfortunately, it seems 76-key keyboards are being phased-out.

Right now I use a 76-key Roland A-37 controller which I picked up used for a couple of hundred bucks. I like the weight of the board and the semi-weighted action. But I'm looking to replace it because of 3 limitations: 1)--most important--it doesn't have a real volume control. It has a midi-data slider and I can control the same data via foot pedal, but everytime I switch a program it goes back to "10". 2) it has no real-time controls. Not a big, big deal. Most of patches are ready to go "as is", but there are times when I would like to be able to tweak a parameter or two while I'm playing. 3) The readout is only a letter and two digits. Sounds silly, but as I'm getting older I'm having a harder and harder time remembering that "A13" is my brass patch. Or that "A18" is the sound I use for Bon Jovi songs. I've become dependant on the ability to type "Bon Jovi" into the read out.

...what a drag it is getting old....

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by wades_keys

It is a trip to go from bass to keys in one song - the muscle memory is a tough thing to change up on the fly and it's something I'm always aware of and working mentally to improve on.

Skip to 1:45 for my keys part....

 

It's at 2:45

Nice little medley. And I always liked that old Frampton EP solo. I hear ya on the going back and forth thing. I spend a good part of most gigs with a guitar strapped on while I'm playing keys. The most confusing mess is when we do "Let's Go" where I'm playing the rhythm guitar parts, switching back-and-forth between a couple of different keyboard patches, and singing lead.

Oh, and usually hitting light-cues with my left foot. And it's usually right about the time I'm doing all this that my bass player will walk up and yell in my ear "can I get a little more 'me' in my monitor?"

[SeniorBlues]

 

Originally Posted by guido61

I like 76-key keyboards for piano stuff. Trying to play two-handed piano parts on 61-keys and I'm always running out of keys and hitting the octave button mid-part. NOT good. But I've never any REAL need for those few extra notes on the top and bottom that 88-key keyboards provide over the 76-key models. Unfortunately, it seems 76-key keyboards are being phased-out.

Right now I use a 76-key Roland A-37 controller which I picked up used for a couple of hundred bucks. I like the weight of the board and the semi-weighted action. But I'm looking to replace it because of 3 limitations: 1)--most important--it doesn't have a real volume control. It has a midi-data slider and I can control the same data via foot pedal, but everytime I switch a program it goes back to "10". 2) it has no real-time controls. Not a big, big deal. Most of patches are ready to go "as is", but there are times when I would like to be able to tweak a parameter or two while I'm playing. 3) The readout is only a letter and two digits. Sounds silly, but as I'm getting older I'm having a harder and harder time remembering that "A13" is my brass patch. Or that "A18" is the sound I use for Bon Jovi songs. I've become dependant on the ability to type "Bon Jovi" into the read out.

...what a drag it is getting old....

 

Even on my ancient SY-77 I use a lot of custom patches, so the voice number is part of my set list along with the key signature.

I'm thinking about the S70XS, fully weighted keys and all. It looks very performance friendly.

[Outkaster]

Get it I have the S-90 XS. That and my XK-3C does well.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by SeniorBlues

I'm thinking about the S70XS, fully weighted keys and all. It looks very performance friendly.

 

Haven't played with one of those, but they DO look nice. $3,700 list price though.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by SeniorBlues

Even on my ancient SY-77 I use a lot of custom patches, so the voice number is part of my set list along with the key signature.

 

You can write in patch names on the SY77. But the screen is a bitch to read. Mine is getting pretty dim. They go out on those boards completely eventually.

[rhat]

 

Originally Posted by guido61

The leslie simulator I use does that. It's an older one they stopped making years ago. Hard to find now, but you see one pop up once in awhile. It has separate controls for ramping up (or 'shutting down') and the speed.

http://clonewheel.ashbysolutions.com.../dynacord.html

 

The thing about a leslie that you cant duplicate with a whizbang box is that its mechanical and when you shut it off it coasts to a stop, Kinda like shutting down a ceiling fan. You cant do that digitally and have it be realistic. Unless you have owned and gigged with a real leslie you wont really understand the difference. are they worth the weight? only if someone else is humpin the thing for you.....as in roadies

[paulz]

To be honest, I don't find it's the ramp-up/ramp-down times of the electronic simulators (there's been significant work in that area) that is their weak point.

Rather I find it's the continually varying interaction with the room ambience (which is one reason why some larger acts have been known to shove a leslie into a dressing room, etc off-stage - the leslie in free-space is nice and still complex, but lacks that) -- some folks call it the 'lighthouse effect' of the leslie.

Yes, a multi-channel sim can help, but the interpolation is imperfect at best.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by rhat

The thing about a leslie that you cant duplicate with a whizbang box is that its mechanical and when you shut it off it coasts to a stop, Kinda like shutting down a ceiling fan. You cant do that digitally and have it be realistic. Unless you have owned and gigged with a real leslie you wont really understand the difference. are they worth the weight? only if someone else is humpin the thing for you.....as in roadies

 

Actually, the Dynacord is analog, not digital. And it does the coasts to a stop thing pretty well.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by paulz

To be honest, I don't find it's the ramp-up/ramp-down times of the electronic simulators (there's been significant work in that area) that is their weak point.

Rather I find it's the continually varying interaction with the room ambience (which is one reason why some larger acts have been known to shove a leslie into a dressing room, etc off-stage - the leslie in free-space is nice and still complex, but lacks that) -- some folks call it the 'lighthouse effect' of the leslie.

Yes, a multi-channel sim can help, but the interpolation is imperfect at best.

 

What do you think of the Motion Sound stuff.

[pinkfloydcramer61]

I have the Ventilator now, after using most all the different whiz-bang boxes (save the Dynacord and the Hughes and Kettner Rotosphere) and I agree with Jim Alfredson's review in that it does the best at modeling the frequency response of a Leslie cabinet, which is where the previous whiz-bangers fall short (thanks to rhat for the new addition to my gear vocabulary). It also does a great job of modeling that tube grind ala Steppenwolf, Winwood etc. I have owned a Motion Sound Pro-3t and enjoyed it, however agree that the tone is way lacking compared to a modified Leslie 22h that I owned for a couple years.

But if you are not an organ freak, it is unlikely that you would consider it worth the $500+, seeing as how that could get you halfway to a used, self-contained clone with a good Leslie sim, such as the Electro II.

But for anyone who has not dipped their toe in the modeled Hammond/Leslie clone waters, I advise DON'T- because there is no going back to the static, one-dimensional sampled B3 sounds of most Roland/Korg/Yamaha workstations, without being miserable. For samples, IMO the best you can get is guido's Emu B3 card/module- much superior warmth and depth compared to the others.

I for one have spent entirely too much $$ on modern-day gear that attempts to sound old and retro. Fortunately that makes a smidgeon of sense as I am into retro, low-tech music.

[rhat]

 

Originally Posted by way2def

I have the Ventilator now, after using most all the different whiz-bang boxes (save the Dynacord and the Hughes and Kettner Rotosphere) and I agree with Jim Alfredson's review in that it does the best at modeling the frequency response of a Leslie cabinet, which is where the previous whiz-bangers fall short (thanks to rhat for the new addition to my gear vocabulary). It also does a great job of modeling that tube grind ala Steppenwolf, Winwood etc. I have owned a Motion Sound Pro-3t and enjoyed it, however agree that the tone is way lacking compared to a modified Leslie 22h that I owned for a couple years.

But if you are not an organ freak, it is unlikely that you would consider it worth the $500+, seeing as how that could get you halfway to a used, self-contained clone with a good Leslie sim, such as the Electro II.

But for anyone who has not dipped their toe in the modeled Hammond/Leslie clone waters, I advise DON'T- because there is no going back to the static, one-dimensional sampled B3 sounds of most Roland/Korg/Yamaha workstations, without being miserable. For samples, IMO the best you can get is guido's Emu B3 card/module- much superior warmth and depth compared to the others.

I for one have spent entirely too much $$ on modern-day gear that attempts to sound old and retro. Fortunately that makes a smidgeon of sense as I am into retro, low-tech music.

 

I saw a pretty impressive demo clip on the Ventilator. It does nail the leslie sound however on the demo they were never able to nail that tweener sound on the spool down. To me thats makes it just another wanna be. That said it dosnt mean its a bad piece of gear. I think it just takes the mechanical aspects of the leslie to get the tweener sound that is classic rock organ. It is a subtle thing but ,,, its is the sound from my point of view.

[pinkfloydcramer61]

http://www.organissimo.org/pub/saveme_org.mp3

THIS clip is what sold me on it. It is Jim Alfredson making masterful and strategic use of the stop/start/spool-down technique. More whiz for your bang, THAT'S what it's all about.

[rhat]

 

Originally Posted by way2def

http://www.organissimo.org/pub/saveme_org.mp3

THIS clip is what sold me on it. It is Jim Alfredson making masterful and strategic use of the stop/start/spool-down technique. More whiz for your bang, THAT'S what it's all about.

 

You posted some pretty hot playing. sweet

The playing on this clip isnt good but it does have a pretty good example of what I call the sound

Notice how it just kind of hangs when the horns are almost to a stop. Thats the sound they have trouble getting when they simulate the leslie. That is the magic of the real deal , but these days its prolly not worth the load in since they can come so near the real deal at a fraction of the weight.

[pinkfloydcramer61]

rhat, your experience with real Leslie speakers by far supercedes mine. So I defer to you, sir. But it doesn't hurt my feelings to admit that a 2.5 lb box does not entirely replicate the sound of a 150 lb rotating speaker.

[rhat]

 

Originally Posted by way2def

rhat, your experience with real Leslie speakers by far supercedes mine. So I defer to you, sir. But it doesn't hurt my feelings to admit that a 2.5 lb box does not entirely replicate the sound of a 150 lb rotating speaker.

 

Oh I agree with you ,, Modern tech is the snitz. No way would I ever haul around a leslie. even in the day I cheated and used a fender leslie which was alot smaller ,, but did have the mechanical rotating speaker. Why because thats the lightest thing they had. The only reason I posted the clip was to show the mechanical aspects of the leslie and give a demo of that split second point in the spool down that the electronic sim engineers are going after. For sure when I go to lay my money down on a whiz bang box ,, the ventalator is the cream of the crop. To be honest I am pretty lazy and just hit the {censored}ty leslie effects button on my roland stage piano. For the one nighter bar gigs that we do ,, its good enough to adda little spice and for sure its not near as good as the vent. THat thing is cool beans. For sure its gonna put the leslie in its grave. This is kinda like the debate about a real rhodes being better than the patch on a modern board. No way is the real deal as good... because the real roads was heavy and had action like a dump truck. I owned one so I know.

[paulz]

 

Originally Posted by guido61

What do you think of the Motion Sound stuff.

 

they have a few different things going on baffle only speakers, rotating horns with low-end simulators

they even had that speaker isolation box rotating horn system.

but generally I like em. Not so much the electronic sim parts, but the actual rotating ones

On some units, the bass response can be a little on the weak side, but the manufacturer even had a baffle mod for those and some folks replace the speaker itself for better response.

I'm not talking "poor bass response" just maybe a little on the weak side, so that can just be what kind of voicing you like

They use DC motors which are a lot easier to electronically control (so it's not dual motors or changing pully ratios) even accel / decel.

They also can get that baffle forward firing when braked (not spinning).

They used to make a neat little "gas pedal" -- a treadle control for speed which was a nice touch.

The internal mics aren't so great - BUT they are neat convenience, so even if you don't upgrade them, in that emergency pinch when you need to run to console they made it easy

(their discontinued acoustic guitar amp was underpowered, so having it there was essential, the keyboard units seem better powered...maybe that's why the acoustic was discontinued)

They decently portable (a helluva lot moreso than classic leslies)

THOUGH I will say, I've seen a number of them with cracks in the cab (usually just off a bottom corner)

that "truck bedliner finish" is kind of weird, but seems to hold up OK I guess.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by way2def

I have the Ventilator now,

 

I see there's a "remote" jack on the Ventilator. How does this work? I'm thinking about checking out a Ventilator and comparing it to my Dynacord, but one of the things I like about the Dynacord is it's a rack mount unit and comes with a remote foot-switchbox with a switch for ramping the effect up and down and one for the speed control.

The Ventilator looks like I might have to use the pedal itself as a footswitch and run cables from it to my rack and back again. (not completely out of the question but not as simple as what I have now.)

Would the remote jack allow me to keep the unit itself back in the rack?

[pinkfloydcramer61]

 

Originally Posted by guido61

Would the remote jack allow me to keep the unit itself back in the rack?

 

yes. For $30 extra you can get a remote pedal from ashbysolutions.com. It connects to the Ventilator with a standard TRS cable (10', included) and has 2 stomp-buttons- one toggles between fast/chorale and the other is "brake"- for stopped rotors ala "Green Onions". There are no controls on the Ventilator itself for "brake" mode and an un-modded stock footswitch will not work.

A thread discussing the pros and cons of the unit:

http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthr...or#Post2184924

I somewhat agree with the guy who says that the Nord Electro doesn't benefit as much from the Ventilator as other clones (Hammond XK3, Roland VK8) might. But it still is an improvement, IMO. Just not enough of one for me to screw with for most gigs (I use an Electro II rack). I like to pair the box with my Voce V5 module.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by way2def

yes. For $30 extra you can get a remote pedal from ashbysolutions.com. It connects to the Ventilator with a standard TRS cable (10', included) and has 2 stomp-buttons- one toggles between fast/chorale and the other is "brake"- for stopped rotors ala "Green Onions". There are no controls on the Ventilator itself for "brake" mode and an un-modded stock footswitch will not work.

A thread discussing the pros and cons of the unit:

http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthr...or#Post2184924

I somewhat agree with the guy who says that the Nord Electro doesn't benefit as much from the Ventilator as other clones (Hammond XK3, Roland VK8) might. But it still is an improvement, IMO. Just not enough of one for me to screw with for most gigs (I use an Electro II rack). I like to pair the box with my Voce V5 module.

 

Thanks for the link. I'm interesting in checking one out. I'm thinking that if I don't like it and stick with my Dynacord, I can probably re-sell it at pretty close to retail, and only cost myself a few dollars for the 'demo'. And if I go the other way, I can probably sell the Dynacord for a nice profit. I picked one up years ago for a couple of hundred dollars. I rarely see them go (if you see them at all) for less than $500 these days.