Members SeniorBlues Posted October 23, 2010 Members Share Posted October 23, 2010 Originally Posted by JDRock ...i have no trouble finding keyboardists, i have trouble finding one who knows how to STOP playing when the song calls for it. good players are known for what they play, GREAT players are known for what they DONT play. That is far more true of guitar players than for keyboard players. Just because most of the repertoire is written by and for guitars doesn't mean that the role of a keyboard player should be just to fill in for the few songs selected mostly for variety. I've seen CL ads where the guy filling the keyboard chair is asked to double on guitar or even percussion. Guitar players tend to think that rock, blues (and a number of other genres) is all about them. Keyboards dominate R&B and synthpop. Wouldn't it be nice to select and arrange music based on who you've got in the band, rather than default to a style that marginalizes one of the members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SpaceNorman Posted October 23, 2010 Members Share Posted October 23, 2010 Originally Posted by JDRock ...i have no trouble finding keyboardists, i have trouble finding one who knows how to STOP playing when the song calls for it. I can appreciate this comment. As a keyboard who tends to be a little busy if left to his own devices - the comment strikes close to home. My playing is rooted in trying to emulate the two fisted R&B piano player types - which means that I like playing parts that have a flow to them. When I listen to a tune - it's the churning rhythm stuff that jumps out at me as the "meat and potatoes" of the tune - and not the stab parts and wispy melody lines that characterize alot of the more current stuff today. Bottom line is - I'm cognizant of my tendency to overplay - and try to keep it in check. In situations when the keyboard player IS overplaying - JDRock's comment is an accurate observation. Like most situations - there may be another perspective. As a keyboard player - I can't tell you how many times I've found myself working with a new group and have been playing parts "like the record" - only to have the tune stopped to have the guitar player explain to me that I need to lay out of the passage because he always "does this little guitar thing" there. Or find that the cool keyboard rhythm part that I hear as prominent on the original has to be replaced with simplified organ/pad chords played in the background because the guitar player is plowing a chunky rhythm groove that totally fills the pattern. My point is - yes, there are those keyboard players who have a tendency to overplay - but there are plenty of instances that the keyboard player who is accused of overplaying is really only guilty of not staying far enough out the guitar player's way to keep the guitar player happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tucktronix Posted October 23, 2010 Members Share Posted October 23, 2010 Originally Posted by JDRock ...i have no trouble finding keyboardists, i have trouble finding one who knows how to STOP playing when the song calls for it. good players are known for what they play, GREAT players are known for what they DONT play. The same goes for guitar players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cooterbrown Posted October 23, 2010 Members Share Posted October 23, 2010 Originally Posted by JDRock ...i have no trouble finding keyboardists, i have trouble finding one who knows how to STOP playing when the song calls for it. good players are known for what they play, GREAT players are known for what they DONT play. That's true for anybody who plays an instrument. Ever heard a harmonica player who feels the need to continuously play and cover every hole? Ugh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rhat Posted October 23, 2010 Members Share Posted October 23, 2010 I think it comes down to there is a major difference between say a solo piano act and playing keyboards in a band. we do a jam night on sundays and I on an occasions get a solo keyboard type that uses my board to sit in with the band. Now alot of those guys are what i consider better players from a technical point of view, but really dont play with band as well. They are used to having to cover bass , rhythm and melody and can end up mr busy fingers in a band situation. What they are playing is cool but tends to clutter the mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SeniorBlues Posted October 23, 2010 Members Share Posted October 23, 2010 Originally Posted by rhat I think it comes down to there is a major difference between say a solo piano act and playing keyboards in a band. we do a jam night on sundays and I on an occasions get a solo keyboard type that uses my board to sit in with the band. Now alot of those guys are what i consider better players from a technical point of view, but really dont play with band as well. They are used to having to cover bass , rhythm and melody and can end up mr busy fingers in a band situation. What they are playing is cool but tends to clutter the mix. Very true. All musical performances strive to achieve a complete sound - bass, chords, rhythm, lines, etc. A guitar trio obviously isn't going to leave room for keyboard parts if that chair is empty. You strive to achieve a complete sound within the limitations of the chairs that you have, but if you then decide to add a keyboard, I think it's reasonable to suggest that every moment of every song in the set list needs to be reexamined with fresh ears. It's basic Kindergarten: take turns, share. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted October 23, 2010 Members Share Posted October 23, 2010 Originally Posted by SeniorBlues . Wouldn't it be nice to select and arrange music based on who you've got in the band, rather than default to a style that marginalizes one of the members. I think that good bands do this. It only makes sense to get the most out of all your players regardless of the song you've chosen to play. Personally, I don't mind having the keyboard parts 'marginalized' on the guitar-heavy songs because I also play guitar. So I'm happy to pick up the rhythm parts. But while I'm perfectly capable of filling a lot of space and covering the needed parts on a modern synth-heavy tune, it doesn't make sense to just have my very-talented guitarist standing around doing nothing simply because there were no guitar parts on the original recording. So we re-arrange stuff to fit the line-up we have. Plus it helps to keep the wide variety of music that we do sound more cohesive throughout the set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SeniorBlues Posted October 23, 2010 Members Share Posted October 23, 2010 Originally Posted by guido61 I think that good bands do this. It only makes sense to get the most out of all your players regardless of the song you've chosen to play. Personally, I don't mind having the keyboard parts 'marginalized' on the guitar-heavy songs because I also play guitar. So I'm happy to pick up the rhythm parts. But while I'm perfectly capable of filling a lot of space and covering the needed parts on a modern synth-heavy tune, it doesn't make sense to just have my very-talented guitarist standing around doing nothing simply because there were no guitar parts on the original recording. So we re-arrange stuff to fit the line-up we have. Plus it helps to keep the wide variety of music that we do sound more cohesive throughout the set. . . . . but I didn't see you suggesting that the guitar player take up another instrument as you have done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted October 23, 2010 Members Share Posted October 23, 2010 Originally Posted by SeniorBlues . . . . but I didn't see you suggesting that the guitar player take up another instrument as you have done. Well, that's just a result of the fact that I already play guitar. I didn't take it up just to have something to do on guitar songs. If I didn't play guitar what would I do on the AC/DC songs? Hmmm...not sure. Never really thought about it. Maybe be the band videographer like Grant does! But funny that you mention it because I'm thinking of putting up a keyboard on the other side of the stage for the guitarist and female vocalist to use. Neither of them play, but the parts I'm thinking of having them play would be very simple 'fill in' stuff that might be a better use of their abilities on certain songs rather than guitar parts that only work moderately-well or tambourine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rhat Posted October 23, 2010 Members Share Posted October 23, 2010 Originally Posted by guido61 Well, that's just a result of the fact that I already play guitar. I didn't take it up just to have something to do on guitar songs. If I didn't play guitar what would I do on the AC/DC songs? Hmmm...not sure. Never really thought about it. Maybe be the band videographer like Grant does! But funny that you mention it because I'm thinking of putting up a keyboard on the other side of the stage for the guitarist and female vocalist to use. Neither of them play, but the parts I'm thinking of having them play would be very simple 'fill in' stuff that might be a better use of their abilities on certain songs rather than guitar parts that only work moderately-well or tambourine. Interesting. I can see that working for a band like yours. You have free hands in your band you an put to work.. Was keyboard your main instrument before you started playing guitar or the other way around? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted October 23, 2010 Members Share Posted October 23, 2010 Originally Posted by rhat Interesting. I can see that working for a band like yours. You have free hands in your band you an put to work.. Was keyboard your main instrument before you started playing guitar or the other way around? I started with piano lessons at age 7 which I took until about age 14 or 15. My mom bought me a guitar when I was 10 or 11 and I became self-taught at that, largely from what I already understood from knowing piano. By age 15 I started my first band playing guitar. At age 21, realizing that I would never be a good enough guitarist to compete with the flashy players coming up in the 80s (Eddie van Halen pretty much wrecked any chance I had of being a rock guitarist!) , I bought a couple of synths and switched over to being a keyboard player who could do some guitar when needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rhat Posted October 23, 2010 Members Share Posted October 23, 2010 Originally Posted by guido61 I started with piano lessons at age 7 which I took until about age 14 or 15. My mom bought me a guitar when I was 10 or 11 and I became self-taught at that, largely from what I already understood from knowing piano. By age 15 I started my first band playing guitar. At age 21, realizing that I would never be a good enough guitarist to compete with the flashy players coming up in the 80s (Eddie van Halen pretty much wrecked any chance I had of being a rock guitarist!) , I bought a couple of synths and switched over to being a keyboard player who could do some guitar when needed. Ok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted October 23, 2010 Members Share Posted October 23, 2010 I hate to sell old gear. I end up having an emotional attachment to most of it, plus it often goes way up in value.My biggest regret is, when I was really broke in the mid-90s, selling off my 80s rig of a Prophet 5, Roland Jupiter 6 and Moog Source for practically nothing. With all the new keyboards coming out at that time, nobody wanted those old analog dinosaurs anymore and they weren't worth anything.....THEN.Now original Prophet 5s and Jupiter 6s are worth thousands. Wish I still had those boards. Not so much for the value (although that would be nice too) but for the memories attached to them. I wouldn't buy those same boards again unless I somehow found the ones I owned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rhat Posted October 23, 2010 Members Share Posted October 23, 2010 Originally Posted by guido61 I hate to sell old gear. I end up having an emotional attachment to most of it, plus it often goes way up in value. My biggest regret is, when I was really broke in the mid-90s, selling off my 80s rig of a Prophet 5, Roland Jupiter 6 and Moog Source for practically nothing. With all the new keyboards coming out at that time, nobody wanted those old analog dinosaurs anymore and they weren't worth anything.....THEN. Now original Prophet 5s and Jupiter 6s are worth thousands. Wish I still had those boards. Not so much for the value (although that would be nice too) but for the memories attached to them. I wouldn't buy those same boards again unless I somehow found the ones I owned. I dont get attched to things. When I was getting ready for the move to texas ,,, I sold off a fender musicmaster bass amp , a peavy tnt100, a 2001 electraglide, a speedboat. I did keep an old ampeg B-15 flip top and a 69 gibson ebo bass... and my guitars. I dont miss any of the vintage keyboard I offed over the years..... they suck compared to what I am playing now. Ya gotta be willing to move on from physical posessions. People said ,, wont you miss the lake house you had for 20 years. to be honest I cant say that I will. Maybe its because I always did alot of horse trading and buying and selling of things... you cant fall in love with inventory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted October 23, 2010 Members Share Posted October 23, 2010 Originally Posted by rhat I dont get attched to things. When I was getting ready for the move to texas ,,, I sold off a fender musicmaster bass amp , a peavy tnt100, a 2001 electraglide, a speedboat. I did keep an old ampeg B-15 flip top and a 69 gibson ebo bass... and my guitars. I dont miss any of the vintage keyboard I offed over the years..... they suck compared to what I am playing now. Ya gotta be willing to move on from physical posessions. People said ,, wont you miss the lake house you had for 20 years. to be honest I cant say that I will. Maybe its because I always did alot of horse trading and buying and selling of things... you cant fall in love with inventory. I'm not that way with most stuff. Just some musicial equipment I made a lot of great music with. (Especially stuff I sold for cheap that went up in value later.) But I've never been one to live in the past. Cars, houses, ex-girlfriends....I can forget all those things pretty easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SeniorBlues Posted October 24, 2010 Members Share Posted October 24, 2010 Originally Posted by guido61 If I didn't play guitar what would I do on the AC/DC songs? Hmmm...not sure. Never really thought about it. Sometimes I feel like I'm beating the proverbial dead horse on this issue, but the solution to the AC/DC dilemma for keyboards is simple . . . Leave those songs to the guitar bands. DON'T PLAY THEM! You've got keys; most of them don't. Do stuff they can't do. Seems so obvious to me, so what am I missing? Yeah, they'll request guitar band stuff because they don't get that your style leads you in another direction, but it's not like you can't put together a long night's worth of material that's suited to your style and instrumentation that will get the job done, ie keep them on the dance floor, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted October 24, 2010 Members Share Posted October 24, 2010 Originally Posted by SeniorBlues Sometimes I feel like I'm beating the proverbial dead horse on this issue, but the solution to the AC/DC dilemma for keyboards is simple . . . Leave those songs to the guitar bands. DON'T PLAY THEM! You've got keys; most of them don't. Do stuff they can't do. Seems so obvious to me, so what am I missing? Yeah, they'll request guitar band stuff because they don't get that your style leads you in another direction, but it's not like you can't put together a long night's worth of material that's suited to your style and instrumentation that will get the job done, ie keep them on the dance floor, right? Hmmmm....but I LIKE being in a band that plays AC/DC songs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SeniorBlues Posted October 25, 2010 Members Share Posted October 25, 2010 Originally Posted by guido61 Hmmmm....but I LIKE being in a band that plays AC/DC songs... Well yeah. That's because there's something you can do on the song - play guitar. . . . . You asked what you would do if you didn't, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted October 25, 2010 Members Share Posted October 25, 2010 Originally Posted by SeniorBlues Well yeah. That's because there's something you can do on the song - play guitar. . . . No, it's because I like AC/DC songs and I like the way the audience responds to the ones we do. Now do I like AC/DC songs because I play guitar? Or do I play guitar because I like AC/DC songs? Or would I like them regardless? Impossible to say for sure. It's like asking what would I do if I only had one arm. I'd do a lot of things differently, and some I might choose to not do at all. But since I have both arms, it's not really a scenario I spend much time contemplating. Now, I'm 100% cool with keyboard bands wanting to go to whatever-lengths they need to go to to remain successful and avoid guitar songs, if that's the route they choose. But I'm not sure I'm 100% on board with the idea that guitar bands only do guitar tunes and keyboard bands only do keyboard tunes and never the twain shall meet. And I'm not sure it is necessary that every member of the band be fully involved on 100% of the material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members KeysBear Posted October 25, 2010 Members Share Posted October 25, 2010 Originally Posted by guido61 Hmmmm....but I LIKE being in a band that plays AC/DC songs... Same here, I like the AC/DC but I don't have a problem now because I just switch from keys and keys bass to bass guitar for the guitar only songs. Back in the old days when the band played Judas Priest "You've Got Another Thing Coming" I would just step off stage and line up a girl for later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted October 25, 2010 Members Share Posted October 25, 2010 Yeah, I don't think it is necessary for every member to be involved on every song. Every member of my band gets at least one song off a night for some reason or another. I don't have a problem at all with sitting out a song or two over the course of 3 or 4 sets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SeniorBlues Posted October 25, 2010 Members Share Posted October 25, 2010 Originally Posted by guido61 Yeah, I don't think it is necessary for every member to be involved on every song. Every member of my band gets at least one song off a night for some reason or another. I don't have a problem at all with sitting out a song or two over the course of 3 or 4 sets. Really!?!? The drummer gets a break? . . . and the bass player? I think having even one person sit out a tune is very unusual (except for a lead singer). I've never been part of a band that did it, nor have I seen a group that did it. I guess if you're all multi-instrumentalists, it's different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pinkfloydcramer61 Posted October 25, 2010 Members Share Posted October 25, 2010 Really!?!? The drummer gets a break? . . . and the bass player? Well, yeah..and why not? Every working band I have played in would do at least one ac. guitar/piano + vocals number. Which would often be one of the highlights of the show. Don't have to all night long, ya know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SeniorBlues Posted October 25, 2010 Members Share Posted October 25, 2010 Originally Posted by SeniorBlues Really!?!? The drummer gets a break? . . . and the bass player? Well, yeah..and why not? Every working band I have played in would do at least one ac. guitar/piano + vocals number. Which would often be one of the highlights of the show. Don't have to all night long, ya know. I'm not saying it's a bad idea. It's just that I've never seen it. Maybe the scene has changed due to that fact that so many musicians now do a lot of solo and duo work. If that was going on back when to the same extent, I wasn't aware of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted October 25, 2010 Members Share Posted October 25, 2010 Originally Posted by SeniorBlues Really!?!? The drummer gets a break? . . . and the bass player? Yeah, we do a couple of acoustic numbers that will just be me on guitar or keys and the singer. I find it makes for a very nice change-of-pace to, instead of just doing a ballad, pull it waaaay back and do an intimate, unplugged sort of thing. If you're going to change it up with a slow song, go out of your way to make it a show piece, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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