Keyboard players - why so hard to find?

[SeniorBlues]

Originally Posted by guido61

Yeah, we do a couple of acoustic numbers that will just be me on guitar or keys and the singer.

I find it makes for a very nice change-of-pace to, instead of just doing a ballad, pull it waaaay back and do an intimate, unplugged sort of thing. If you're going to change it up with a slow song, go out of your way to make it a show piece, IMO.

Of course the change of pace ballad probably wasn't an AC/DC tune . . . . My concern about marginalizing keyboard players by playing guitar band tunes remains. 10% - OK. 80% - those are the bands that wonder why they can't find a keyboard player.

[Vito Corleone]

Originally Posted by SeniorBlues

Of course the change of pace ballad probably wasn't an AC/DC tune . . . .

No. Our most popular acoustic ballad currently is doing the old Fleetwood Mac version of "Landslide".

My concern about marginalizing keyboard players by playing guitar band tunes remains. 10% - OK. 80% - those are the bands that wonder why they can't find a keyboard player.

Yeah, the 80% bands shouldn't be looking for a keyboard player unless they are lucky enough to find a multi-instrumentalist. I've been lucky, I guess, in that even though I DO play guitar, the bands and guitarists I've played with have always been very accepting of keyboard parts and keyboard tunes.

In fact, the original plan for the band I'm currently in was to do a lot more keyboard music than we ended up doing. It was actually ME who pushed for more guitar tunes because, even though I initially hoped for a keyboard-heavy band, it was the guitar tunes that were working best for us at the gigs we were doing and the audiences we were playing for.

Having added the female vocalist and the subsequent emphasis on more modern pop songs, I find I'm playing guitar less and less though.

[rhat]

Originally Posted by guido61

Yeah, we do a couple of acoustic numbers that will just be me on guitar or keys and the singer.

I find it makes for a very nice change-of-pace to, instead of just doing a ballad, pull it waaaay back and do an intimate, unplugged sort of thing. If you're going to change it up with a slow song, go out of your way to make it a show piece, IMO.

We have a couple or three songs where our front man ,, acoustic guitar/ lead singer will just do a song solo. the whole band just sits out and lets him take the whole spotlight. In reality to have a band in on those would really muck up the mood of the songs. This guy really knows how to connect with a crowd....solo. we tend to throw those in as the next to last song before a break. he does the solo mood song ,, then we follow with one off the Last CD... then break on a up beat theme. it might not work for everyone , but since we back a solo singer songrwiter it really goes over well. The reality is that the show is all about him and the people in the crowd. Its part of the backing band thing ,, you need to understand your job....support the main guy. without him ,, there would be no XXX band.

We play the dinner show 7 to 10 deal ,, so our shows are not all about dancing ,, they are about entertainment.

[Vito Corleone]

Originally Posted by rhat

In reality to have a band in on those would really muck up the mood of the songs.

Yeah. If we just do a straight ballad with the full band playing, all we're doing is slowing down the tempo of the music, we're not really doing much for the 'show'. By having most of the band exit the stage and bring it down to just guitar and vocals, it creates an entirely different mood and pulls the audience in.

Then when we bust out of the ballad into the next rocker or dance tune, the next song has even that much more impact.

For us--especially since so much of the songlist itself is just the standard fare that "every other band does"--it's really about finding ways to get the most out of every song and turn them into performances as much as possible.

[rhat]

Originally Posted by guido61

Yeah. If we just do a straight ballad with the full band playing, all we're doing is slowing down the tempo of the music, we're not really doing much for the 'show'. By having most of the band exit the stage and bring it down to just guitar and vocals, it creates an entirely different mood and pulls the audience in.

Then when we bust out of the ballad into the next rocker or dance tune, the next song has even that much more impact.

For us--especially since so much of the songlist itself is just the standard fare that "every other band does"--it's really about finding ways to get the most out of every song and turn them into performances as much as possible.

We dont exit the stage ,,, that would really break up the flow of the show. you just lay out and let the guy really connect solo. that way we are ready to nail right back in after the mood song. we will never start a set or end a set on one of those really special songs. we dont run a rapid fire format due to the fact that the show is about the front man talking to the crowd ,, telling little stories and generally working them up close and personal. The goal of the show is to have everyone in that room walk out feeling that this singer song writer is a personal friend with an connection to them , his show and his music and his club or a club he works.

like i said its a dinner show deal... where we spool things up to more upbeat things as the tables get cleared and the party starts. i think that is what sets this show apart from alot of shows down here.

[JDRock]

Originally Posted by cooterbrown

That's true for anybody who plays an instrument.
Ever heard a harmonica player who feels the need to continuously play and cover every hole?
Ugh!

amen to all the like minded posts...it took me YEARS when (i played drums)
to play less and less and use dynamics instead of chops....soon i was in demand and irreplacable, iguess its a sign of mastering your instrument, i.e.
being secure enough to stand down and leave some space in the music.

[jplanet]

Time to wake up this thread!

After I originally posted this topic, we did find a keyboard player, who enjoyed touring with us last Fall. Now, we are just about to begin recording the new album, with tour dates lined up in October at some nice venues, such as B.B. King's in NYC. It is at this time that our keyboardist suddenly had to move far away due to unfortunate financial burdens.

And, yet again, I find myself in the same hole. No keyboard players respond to the ads - it's as if I just typed it to exercise my fingers.

So, I ask once again - in a place like NYC, which must contain literally thousands of keyboardists, why would not a single one answer an audition call for an established band that features keyboards as a lead instrument, welcomes creative input from this new member, and has everything in place to record and tour?

Here is the page of music examples I include with the ads - maybe you guys can tell me what would keep anyone from responding:

http://www.shadowcircusmusic.com/audio

and here is the ad itself:

http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/muc/2420967860.html

[TIMKEYS]

Originally Posted by jplanet

Time to wake up this thread!

After I originally posted this topic, we did find a keyboard player, who enjoyed touring with us last Fall. Now, we are just about to begin recording the new album, with tour dates lined up in October at some nice venues, such as B.B. King's in NYC. It is at this time that our keyboardist suddenly had to move far away due to unfortunate financial burdens.

And, yet again, I find myself in the same hole. No keyboard players respond to the ads - it's as if I just typed it to exercise my fingers.

So, I ask once again - in a place like NYC, which must contain literally thousands of keyboardists, why would not a single one answer an audition call for an established band that features keyboards as a lead instrument, welcomes creative input from this new member, and has everything in place to record and tour?

Here is the page of music examples I include with the ads - maybe you guys can tell me what would keep anyone from responding:

http://www.shadowcircusmusic.com/audio

and here is the ad itself:

http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/muc/2420967860.html

The same reasons why you had trouble the first time around. You need a better keyboard player than you can attract.

[SpaceNorman]

Originally Posted by jplanet

Here is the page of music examples I include with the ads - maybe you guys can tell me what would keep anyone from responding...

When I read any "musician wanted" adds - I know that the author of the add is doing his damnedest to put the best spin on the situation he's hiring for - and therefore expect that the add will read a little "rosy". Therefore, I look for things that create a "cognitive dissonance" for me. The following passages from your ad definitely create "cognitive dissonance" for me....

Shadow Circus is an established progressive rock band with two critically-acclaimed CD releases. We have a growing international following....

This is not (yet) a paid situation, but we are working very hard towards that goal. We are usually reimbursed for travel expenses to out of town shows, recording of the new CD is already paid for, pre-sales usually cover CD duplication costs, and royalties cover some expenses as well, but we usually still chip in about $10 apiece for rehearsals

Knowing that in a couple of weeks - I'm taking a drummer and bass player from one band that I've played with a couple of times and a guitar player who I've worked with for years to go play a 90 minute "Concert in the Park" show in a teeny, tiny little town just north of here with a guarantee of $100 per man without so much as a single rehearsal - I'm struggling to understand how an established band with critically acclaimed CD's and an international following are not only NOT getting paid - they're actually coughing up $10 each to rehearse.

I can't imagine competent keyboard players beating a path to your door in this situation. Having heard your material (which I think is excellent!) - I'm guessing you guys have more going for you than your add suggests with those two passages.

Personally, I'd leave the whole "this is a not (yet) paid situation..." thing out of the add - in the hopes that you'll attract some responses. Obviously, you'll need to be upfront about the situation - but you'll be able to articulate your WHOLE situation in the telephone conversation and like fare better than putting that in the ad. The passage about no money and it costs us cash to rehearse ... speaks 100x louder than the first passage about your accomplishments.

[Chicken Monkey]

It was not (yet) a paying situation a year ago, and it's still not. Chances are it's not going to be. And you lost your last keyboard player due to $$ issues. Yeah, that would set off some alarm bells for me.

[MartinC]

It seems that your band is musically miles ahead of where your at business wise. You need a good musician to play what you need played, but you don't have much to offer in terms of dough. That is always going to be a huge problem. You mentioned touring, and I have to wonder how many qualified players that are both interested in playing your music, and located in your area, are able to afford to tour with you. I listened to the first cut on your site, and think you have to accept the fact that you have a sound that's either going to hit it, or completely miss it, when it comes to making money. Not much middle ground.

And when your talking about a keyboard guy who can cut the music, you are also talking about a guy capable of earning money playing. So you really need to hit it to make it happen. Or, your going to have to tweak it, until you can.

And I have to mention the image of the band. That's another thing a potential bandmate has to get on board with. I'm an old guitar player, so I guess my opinion is of little value relative to your situation, but no way I'm putting on makeup unless your paying serious coin, playing really fun gigs, or both. I think the guitar parts are not that hard for a lot of guys, and that you'd have a lot easier time finding a guitarist, but that means you have to really put in some time on the keyboard and also give up some personal satisfaction to get what you want.

All your issues would be solved by having solid earnings from performances. And really, that's the only thing, other than love of the music, that's going to sustain your group, or any group of above average players, for an extended period. I've managed to keep the same group of guys, all of whom are full time pros, together for 19 years, mostly because of the fee they get when I call them. If I offered them a 100. gig, they'd say no in most cases. If I asked them to rehearse once a week, they'd say no. If I asked them to pay to rehearse, they'd laugh. That's the reality of working with professional musicians. They have options as to who they play with, the music they play, and the gigs they accept.
If I'm you, I concentrate a lot of energy on finding a way to earn enough money for the band to keep players motivated, as opposed to spending that time trying to find the needle in the haystack.

[TIMKEYS]

Originally Posted by MartinC

It seems that your band is musically miles ahead of where your at business wise. You need a good musician to play what you need played, but you don't have much to offer in terms of dough. That is always going to be a huge problem. You mentioned touring, and I have to wonder how many qualified players that are both interested in playing your music, and located in your area, are able to afford to tour with you. I listened to the first cut on your site, and think you have to accept the fact that you have a sound that's either going to hit it, or completely miss it, when it comes to making money. Not much middle ground.

And when your talking about a keyboard guy who can cut the music, you are also talking about a guy capable of earning money playing. So you really need to hit it to make it happen. Or, your going to have to tweak it, until you can.

And I have to mention the image of the band. That's another thing a potential bandmate has to get on board with. I'm an old guitar player, so I guess my opinion is of little value relative to your situation, but no way I'm putting on makeup unless your paying serious coin, playing really fun gigs, or both. I think the guitar parts are not that hard for a lot of guys, and that you'd have a lot easier time finding a guitarist, but that means you have to really put in some time on the keyboard and also give up some personal satisfaction to get what you want.

All your issues would be solved by having solid earnings from performances. And really, that's the only thing, other than love of the music, that's going to sustain your group, or any group of above average players, for an extended period. I've managed to keep the same group of guys, all of whom are full time pros, together for 19 years, mostly because of the fee they get when I call them. If I offered them a 100. gig, they'd say no in most cases. If I asked them to rehearse once a week, they'd say no. If I asked them to pay to rehearse, they'd laugh. That's the reality of working with professional musicians. They have options as to who they play with, the music they play, and the gigs they accept.
If I'm you, I concentrate a lot of energy on finding a way to earn enough money for the band to keep players motivated, as opposed to spending that time trying to find the needle in the haystack.

I almost get the feeling that the OP is looking for a guy to play tracks that he cant duplicate in a live show. There is no logical reason to go looking for the hardest seat to fill in the band when he says he has the ablitity to play the parts. It makes me think that to get those tracks he had to do alot of studio over dubs and fixes to get them right for the CD. Its a keyboard driven band,,, to want to play guitar if you can be the main guy just seems odd.

[arf-boy]

It's like finding a drummer for a country band. Anyone who could do that wouldn't want to.

Originally Posted by rhat

I play keys as well. I agree with space ,, you guys are good. Nice stuff. However I would never answer your ad. Its not money. When I listen you your music, the first thing that comes to my mind is, that its going to be a gig were the keyboard player is going to be required to provide you with all the strings, synth , outer space kind of things. All i want to do is just play piano, organ, rhodes, maybe an occasional steel drum part. I would feel like a monkey on a chain doing what you need done. I like soul, I like older rock, I like county , I like beach music. I think what you are running into is that the guys that are good enough to do what you want done ,,, dont really want to be directed like a your band would require. You can hire a studio guy to do it ,,,, but its not anything that a guy would want a steady diet of.

Its just not my kind of keyboard playing. Its also going to take a pretty dam good keyboard player to do what you want. It might be a little intimidating for the guys that are into the more soundy type stuff you want. Basically ,, you wont find too many guys that are good enough that want to play that kind of role in a band. Its the kind a thing a studio guy does , just to get you through your CD.

[TIMKEYS]

 

Originally Posted by arf-boy

It's like finding a drummer for a country band. Anyone who could do that wouldn't want to.

 

We got a young 30 year old guy that used to play in a metal band. great drummer and he seems to like playing with an old geezer trop/ country/ band. his business partner is our bass player. he is 42. They have settled right into it. Its a fun band ,,, and they like the fact that there is no drama.

[Vito Corleone]

I would think most keyboardists with that sort of ability and musical inclinations are probably already doing a similar thing AND doing it in a band where THEY are calling the shots and/or writing the songs.

[troyguitar]

Keyboard players tend to care more about money than music, perhaps because it's so much easier for them to make money at it than guitarists.

I'd be looking for college students who are good piano players but don't play in bands and don't have pro keyboard rigs. They won't be expecting to make a pile of money because they aren't really 'in the game' as it were.

Unfortunately those people aren't going to answer your ad because they aren't looking for gigs, you will have to seek them out yourself.

[jplanet]

Thanks for all the responses - so, it seems to come down to what I have always thought, and that is there is a disconnect between the mindset of keyboard players and that of drummers, bass players and guitarists - when it comes to playing in an original band. It sounds to me that most keyboard players are looking to do it for a living, so are more likely in a cover band.

In NYC, It takes decades of work to get an original band to this point, where our name is recognized among fans of the genre, and can score gigs at clubs like B.B. King's. We paid our dues for a long time, and to be able to make enough money where we can record an album for free, and have most of our expenses covered while playing original music - NOT covers - is a tremendous accomplishment.

The ideal candidate for us would be a keyboardist who composes similar music, who is doing this because they have something to say musically, and want to be recognized for the art they create, and their musicianship. In this capacity, they could be irreplaceable, and be one with the identity of the band. To try to sell this as something that would provide an income would be completely unrealistic....But it would not be far off the mark to say that the project could at least be self-sustaining, and help that player attain a kind of visibility that they may become a candidate for freelance work-for-hire.

[arf-boy]

 

Originally Posted by TIMKEYS

We got a young 30 year old guy that used to play in a metal band. great drummer and he seems to like playing with an old geezer trop/ country/ band. his business partner is our bass player. he is 42. They have settled right into it. Its a fun band ,,, and they like the fact that there is no drama.

 

Lack of drama is worth a lot.

[MartinC]

I'm not sure about keyboard players being any different. I think it's the guys who are the better players and in demand who are different. Also, guys who make a living at it tend to be focused on the dough. Those guys are also the better players in most cases. FWIW, my group plays original music too. And your right about one thing, it took years to get to the point where we are making what we make per gig. But still, I have to be very selective about the gigs I pursue. And I have to let go of a lot of stuff I'd like to do because the money isn't there. No easy answer.

Originally Posted by jplanet

Thanks for all the responses - so, it seems to come down to what I have always thought, and that is there is a disconnect between the mindset of keyboard players and that of drummers, bass players and guitarists - when it comes to playing in an original band. It sounds to me that most keyboard players are looking to do it for a living, so are more likely in a cover band.

In NYC, It takes decades of work to get an original band to this point, where our name is recognized among fans of the genre, and can score gigs at clubs like B.B. King's. We paid our dues for a long time, and to be able to make enough money where we can record an album for free, and have most of our expenses covered while playing original music - NOT covers - is a tremendous accomplishment.

The ideal candidate for us would be a keyboardist who composes similar music, who is doing this because they have something to say musically, and want to be recognized for the art they create, and their musicianship. In this capacity, they could be irreplaceable, and be one with the identity of the band. To try to sell this as something that would provide an income would be completely unrealistic....But it would not be far off the mark to say that the project could at least be self-sustaining, and help that player attain a kind of visibility that they may become a candidate for freelance work-for-hire.

[jplanet]

Originally Posted by MartinC

I'm not sure about keyboard players being any different....

How I wish this was the case with us! Each time I ran ads for bass players and drummers, I had a few dozen responses within the space of 24 hours. (We had to search for those players 2-3 times when people had to leave due to health or personal issues). Out of those, I was able to whittle down the list to maybe four or five ideal candidates who had the right combination of experience, expectations, ideal age, etc. Running an ad for keyboard players produces nothing - I have to keep re-running the ad, probably to the annoyance of players who scan the ads daily, in hopes that the right person will decide to look one day...

BTW, I do agree with being selective about gigs. I have done the whole bar-gig thing for years, playing for 10-30 people for little or no pay. Now, we have an opening slot for a very successful band of the genre - the gigs don't pay much, but we get to play in front of hundreds of people at every show, sell a lot of merch, etc...

I am sure that it is a combination of factors - keyboard players who play original music are generally either composers/band leaders themselves, and would be more likely to form a band themselves rather than seek an existing situation. Bassists and drummers are less likely to have a catalog of original material that they are concerned about being included in the repertoire of whatever band they are joining, and are more accustomed to satisfying their creativity by coming up with parts to existing material...

[TIMKEYS]

Originally Posted by jplanet

How I wish this was the case with us! Each time I ran ads for bass players and drummers, I had a few dozen responses within the space of 24 hours. (We had to search for those players 2-3 times when people had to leave due to health or personal issues). Out of those, I was able to whittle down the list to maybe four or five ideal candidates who had the right combination of experience, expectations, ideal age, etc. Running an ad for keyboard players produces nothing - I have to keep re-running the ad, probably to the annoyance of players who scan the ads daily, in hopes that the right person will decide to look one day...

BTW, I do agree with being selective about gigs. I have done the whole bar-gig thing for years, playing for 10-30 people for little or no pay. Now, we have an opening slot for a very successful band of the genre - the gigs don't pay much, but we get to play in front of hundreds of people at every show, sell a lot of merch, etc...

I am sure that it is a combination of factors - keyboard players who play original music are generally either composers/band leaders themselves, and would be more likely to form a band themselves rather than seek an existing situation. Bassists and drummers are less likely to have a catalog of original material that they are concerned about being included in the repertoire of whatever band they are joining, and are more accustomed to satisfying their creativity by coming up with parts to existing material...

I play in a band that does original stuff ,,, the difference, I like the stuff the band leader writes and if i have to travel at all for a gig I get paid for it.

[jplanet]

Originally Posted by TIMKEYS

I almost get the feeling that the OP is looking for a guy to play tracks that he cant duplicate in a live show. There is no logical reason to go looking for the hardest seat to fill in the band when he says he has the ablitity to play the parts. It makes me think that to get those tracks he had to do alot of studio over dubs and fixes to get them right for the CD. Its a keyboard driven band,,, to want to play guitar if you can be the main guy just seems odd.

I just wanted to respond to this particular post. The songs are equally-balanced between guitar and keyboards, as it would be in music of bands such as Yes, Genesis, Jethro Tull, and lots of other artists of that genre. The need for a keyboard player is simply that - we need a keyboardist - we were fortunate enough over the years to have had two very skilled keyboardists who performed our music live with no issues whatsoever, but who had to leave due to personal circumstances. They never left because of the band - it was just bad timing for them in their lives. Of course it is not expected that they duplicate every overdub - I have many overdubbed guitar parts that I wouldn't bother to reproduce live. You just handle these parts the way anyone would who performs songs live that have been recorded - you pick the essential parts and sounds that best represent the song in a live setting. Jimmy Page had dozens of overdubs on record - the live experience was different, and that's to be expected.

Technically speaking, I am able to be the band's keyboard player. But, the way I look at it, is that I've developed more of a unique voice as a guitarist than I have as a keyboard player. I have more of a personal attachment to the guitar parts, but I don't mind having a keyboardist come in and put their own personal stamp on our existing music, and bringing in their own compositions. If there are any players out there who compose music on these lines, and haven't made a substantial name for themselves yet, this band would be a great opportunity to have their music become known by thousands of fans of the genre very quickly, rather than the years and years it would take them to establish that from scratch themselves...Oh, and they would get to record an album, have it pressed and distributed by a reputable indie label without investing a dime as well...That's quite a lot in return for the occasional $10 for studio time once a week - you can barely get a meal at McDonald's for $10!

However, all of this would seem an absurd amount of trouble and expense to someone who is not interested in playing and/or composing music of this genre. But, with original music, you can smell a mercenary a mile away. Going to see Yes on their recent tours with Oliver Wakeman on stage - he played the parts just fine, but did it all with the most dull expression on his face - he was simply there to duplicate what was done already, with no passion or feeling...I don't want that - I want somebody who has something to say musically...

[KeysBear]

 

Originally Posted by jplanet

Going to see Yes on their recent tours with Oliver Wakeman on stage - he played the parts just fine, but did it all with the most dull expression on his face - he was simply there to duplicate what was done already, with no passion or feeling...I don't want that - I want somebody who has something to say musically...

 

Why should Oliver be any more enthusiastic about playing with Yes on tour than his father?

[jplanet]

Originally Posted by KeysBear

Why should Oliver be any more enthusiastic about playing with Yes on tour than his father?

LOL - well, Oliver's lost the job to Geoff Downes, who is apparently experiencing a creative renaissance...perfect example of what I said in my last post, in terms of this kind of band flourishing not with hired guns, but with people who have something to say musically...

As an on-topic update, I am also seeing several bands advertising PAID gigs for keyboard players on Craigslist, and they are re-running the ads over and over each day - so, I think that there just might be a legitimate shortage of keyboard players looking for any gig in NYC, whether it's paid or not...

[TIMKEYS]

Originally Posted by jplanet

LOL - well, Oliver's lost the job to Geoff Downes, who is apparently experiencing a creative renaissance...perfect example of what I said in my last post, in terms of this kind of band flourishing not with hired guns, but with people who have something to say musically...

As an on-topic update, I am also seeing several bands advertising PAID gigs for keyboard players on Craigslist, and they are re-running the ads over and over each day - so, I think that there just might be a legitimate shortage of keyboard players looking for any gig in NYC, whether it's paid or not...

If a keyboard player is really good , they just go get a solo gig playing piano bar gigs. They pay really well ,, the tips are really good and they dont have to screw around with a band. Its typically a house gig , where they just show up and play. Most of the band type keyboard players are with event bands that do weddings and corp.

When i was active on bandmix i used to get all kinds of calls from guys looking for keyboard players. Typically I only took start up banmd because I was spending 6 months in texas and didnt want to screw up a working band. I ran though like 6 start up bands that I used for chops building since i was getting back into bands after along time off. I got hooked up with the guy I play with down here a couple years ago. I would play for him in the winter and he would hold the seat open for me to come back the next winter. I moved down and do it year round now. It would seem that keyboard players are pretty hard to find. so then tend to be picky on what they do.