Members wades_keys Posted April 7, 2010 Members Share Posted April 7, 2010 Nobody wants to pay 4-6 guys when they can pay 1 or 2. That's funny, because my 4 piece has more gigs at one venue than this particular duo that also plays there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TrickyBoy Posted April 7, 2010 Members Share Posted April 7, 2010 I think that's what you're both smoking. What lala land do we live in where because you're "experienced" you can suck and still get paid? If no one wants to hear the {censored} you play, you don't deserve to get paid. Don't get me wrong, if you've got clubs/bars where you live that pay you well to play to an empty room, god bless you. Maybe you've got a bunch of trust fund babies that like original music and are willing to subsidize it. {censored}, I've been playing live for 30 years and have a hell of a resume. Ummmm.... doesn't mean I get to play jazz fusion and get paid well in a market that can't support it. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members niceguy Posted April 7, 2010 Members Share Posted April 7, 2010 You must get paid for every gig you play or you are ruining it for every hard working musician out there....period hahahaha tell me what to do, please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 6StringSling Posted April 7, 2010 Members Share Posted April 7, 2010 I think that's what you're both smoking. What lala land do we live in where because you're "experienced" you can suck and still get paid? It's called REALITY and it's not exclusive to music. You might be surprised at how much stock corporate America puts in a piece of paper claiming a degree in such and such vs people who can actually do the job - the piece of paper wins out a surprising number of times even when it's demonstrated that the owner of the paper cannot do the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted April 7, 2010 Members Share Posted April 7, 2010 I think that's what you're both smoking. What lala land do we live in where because you're "experienced" you can suck and still get paid? If no one wants to hear the {censored} you play, you don't deserve to get paid. ??? I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. I didn't see the word suck in the OP or in my reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted April 7, 2010 Members Share Posted April 7, 2010 {censored}, I've been playing live for 30 years and have a hell of a resume. Ummmm.... doesn't mean I get to play jazz fusion and get paid well in a market that can't support it. Sorry. Maybe your market is different. But there are name guys here that can and do play in their style, wherever and whenever they choose, sometimes to small crowds, on the strength of their name. Unfortunately more than a few of these cats have passed away just in the last 2 years: one of em played guitar on Buffet's "Son of a Son of a Sailor".... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted April 7, 2010 Members Share Posted April 7, 2010 Fast forward to 3:01 for the solo - tell me you can do THIS: [YOUTUBE]wosIYZ6_oDw[/YOUTUBE] Now, do it for 15+ years, build a solid rep among musicians and fans as one of the if not the very baddest ass guitarists in town, and tell me you can't gig on the strength of that. It worked for big Dave (RIP), who by the way lost his leg to a drunk driver on the way home from a gig. Some degrees are earned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lespaul1964 Posted April 7, 2010 Members Share Posted April 7, 2010 i sure cant. It is refreshing seeing a musician in a wheelchair play that well. Great post. Now, do it for 15+ years, build a solid rep among musicians and fans as one of the if not the very baddest ass guitarists in town, and tell me you can't gig on the strength of that.It worked for big Dave (RIP), who by the way lost his leg to a drunk driver on the way home from a gig.Some degrees are earned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MartinC Posted April 7, 2010 Members Share Posted April 7, 2010 well I don't think the group I'm in sucks and people do want to hear us cause we get hired -average pay is 2k a gig for four guys. We play corps, weddings, concerts, and the occasional club or restaurant. Next gig is a wedding for 2500.00 That's after the agent's 500.00 so he sold the band for 3k.What we don't do is promise anyone is coming. That has never been part of the program for my generation of musicians. That is something that guys younger than me let happen in their quest to play rooms they probably were not ready to play. The resumes of the guys in our group include names everyone has heard of, which in my experience, is not all that unique. Most guys who have 30 years gigging have opened for, played for, or recorded with at least somebody famous. If that is not worth something in and of itself, I don't know what to say. If some idiot club dude says I don't care who, where, how well you play, who you are, how long you've been gigging-all I care about is how many heads, how much the till rings, and you go along with that, then why even practice? I get it that that is their program, but it's not mine. My focus is on the music. And that leads to doing your best to play with great musicians, people who expect and do get paid no matter what, where, or how. We don't smoke, we rarely drink on a gig, never to excess. we are there to play, not to party. If you think that's lala land, maybe you should come out here and see. But leave the cheesy covers. Play jazz fusion with guys from name bands and you will make money. It's true that in my town, there are no big money making club cover bands. Those bands travel and mostly do corporates. They make up to 10k a gig. Probably average 5k. I think that's what you're both smoking. What lala land do we live in where because you're "experienced" you can suck and still get paid? If no one wants to hear the {censored} you play, you don't deserve to get paid.Don't get me wrong, if you've got clubs/bars where you live that pay you well to play to an empty room, god bless you. Maybe you've got a bunch of trust fund babies that like original music and are willing to subsidize it. {censored}, I've been playing live for 30 years and have a hell of a resume. Ummmm.... doesn't mean I get to play jazz fusion and get paid well in a market that can't support it. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TrickyBoy Posted April 7, 2010 Members Share Posted April 7, 2010 ???I honestly have no idea what you're talking about.I didn't see the word suck in the OP or in my reply. Fair enough, suck was probably the inappropriate word. I'll clarify my point, no matter how good what you play is, if people don't want to hear it, you can't expect to get paid for it. Zappa never got rich, you know what I'm saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TrickyBoy Posted April 7, 2010 Members Share Posted April 7, 2010 well I don't think the group I'm in sucks and people do want to hear us cause we get hired -average pay is 2k a gig for four guys. We play corps, weddings, concerts, and the occasional club or restaurant. Next gig is a wedding for 2500.00 That's after the agent's 500.00 so he sold the band for 3k.What we don't do is promise anyone is coming. That has never been part of the program for my generation of musicians. That is something that guys younger than me let happen in their quest to play rooms they probably were not ready to play. The resumes of the guys in our group include names everyone has heard of, which in my experience, is not all that unique. Most guys who have 30 years gigging have opened for, played for, or recorded with at least somebody famous. If that is not worth something in and of itself, I don't know what to say. If some idiot club dude says I don't care who, where, how well you play, who you are, how long you've been gigging-all I care about is how many heads, how much the till rings, and you go along with that, then why even practice? I get it that that is their program, but it's not mine. My focus is on the music. And that leads to doing your best to play with great musicians, people who expect and do get paid no matter what, where, or how. We don't smoke, we rarely drink on a gig, never to excess. we are there to play, not to party. If you think that's lala land, maybe you should come out here and see. But leave the cheesy covers. Play jazz fusion with guys from name bands and you will make money. It's true that in my town, there are no big money making club cover bands. Those bands travel and mostly do corporates. They make up to 10k a gig. Probably average 5k. As I just responded a minute ago, "suck" was an inappropriate choice of words. Again I will clarify my response. If your market is the club/bar setting, heads is key. You need to provide a value to a bar owner. The corporate/wedding gig is totally different and in many markets is the key to making big $$$. Here there's one band in particular that plays mainly bars/clubs and grossed almost $1M two years ago. Charge $20 covers and packs places. They are still doing extremely well. In NOLA, AMAZING jazz musicians are reduced to playing for tips. Many of them make more $$$ playing on the streets than they do in clubs. Just a reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rhat Posted April 7, 2010 Members Share Posted April 7, 2010 As I just responded a minute ago, "suck" was an inappropriate choice of words. Again I will clarify my response. If your market is the club/bar setting, heads is key. You need to provide a value to a bar owner. The corporate/wedding gig is totally different and in many markets is the key to making big $$$. Here there's one band in particular that plays mainly bars/clubs and grossed almost $1M two years ago. Charge $20 covers and packs places. They are still doing extremely well. In NOLA, AMAZING jazz musicians are reduced to playing for tips. Many of them make more $$$ playing on the streets than they do in clubs. Just a reality. A bar is way more than head counts. Head count is part of it ,, but ,,, Its more about how much each person spends and what they spend money on. as much as you guys dont want to grab onto this ,, older crowds make bars more money. A good entertainer who can really pack a place with an older crowd will produce more profits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TrickyBoy Posted April 7, 2010 Members Share Posted April 7, 2010 It's called REALITY and it's not exclusive to music. You might be surprised at how much stock corporate America puts in a piece of paper claiming a degree in such and such vs people who can actually do the job - the piece of paper wins out a surprising number of times even when it's demonstrated that the owner of the paper cannot do the job. I can only say working in the technology field, this is totally not the case. I work with 25 year old guys that make $125K+ and 45-year-olds that make $50K. The 25-year-old kid bills at $272.50 an hour, the 45-yr-old bills at $100 an hour. No mystery as to their salary discrepancy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members niceguy Posted April 7, 2010 Members Share Posted April 7, 2010 This thread is the biggest reason there should be a separate subforum for original bands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MartinC Posted April 7, 2010 Members Share Posted April 7, 2010 Fair enough, and for whatever reason, very good straight ahead jazz guys play clubs for very little out here too. I don't understand it. They accept it, but IMO they shouldn't. As I just responded a minute ago, "suck" was an inappropriate choice of words. Again I will clarify my response. If your market is the club/bar setting, heads is key. You need to provide a value to a bar owner. The corporate/wedding gig is totally different and in many markets is the key to making big $$$. Here there's one band in particular that plays mainly bars/clubs and grossed almost $1M two years ago. Charge $20 covers and packs places. They are still doing extremely well. In NOLA, AMAZING jazz musicians are reduced to playing for tips. Many of them make more $$$ playing on the streets than they do in clubs. Just a reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GreenAsJade Posted April 7, 2010 Members Share Posted April 7, 2010 Does that mean we should have a separate forum for hobby bands, too? (The link BlueStat posted didn't work, darn it!) GaJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted April 7, 2010 Members Share Posted April 7, 2010 Other artists paint for the fun of it.Right now my playing sucks enough that I wouldn't charge anyone for it, but I appreciate someone who'll listen, and I need the experience to get unsucky.So I play at open mics .... gasp... for free. It's a lot of fun. My heart doesn't bleed for the pros that I'm doing out of a wage, because I don't see open mics doing any pros out of any wage.Is someone really going to argue that open mics are bad for live music and earning a wage playing?I guess the Mod better come along and ban me now.GaJ If you honestly don't know the difference between an open mic and playing entire gigs for free in live music clubs, you're greener than your name implies. Your argument is a straw man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TrickyBoy Posted April 7, 2010 Members Share Posted April 7, 2010 A bar is way more than head counts. Head count is part of it ,, but ,,, Its more about how much each person spends and what they spend money on. as much as you guys dont want to grab onto this ,, older crowds make bars more money. A good entertainer who can really pack a place with an older crowd will produce more profits I don't disagree with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GreenAsJade Posted April 7, 2010 Members Share Posted April 7, 2010 If you honestly don't know the difference between an open mic and playing entire gigs for free in live music clubs, you're greener than your name implies. Your argument is a straw man. Clearly I know the difference. However, the premise of this thread was a blanket one: if you play for free, you should not post in this forum. It didn't say "if you play for free, except in open mics or at friends parties or at church, or at all the other places its OK to play for free, then you should not post in this forum". It didn't say "if you play full gigs in live music clubs for free you should not post in this forum". It said "This forum is only for professional musicians in bands who play at live music clubs. Everone else is a barbarian and can FOAD.". It's only natural, but it happens here dramatically so, that musicians who's job it is is to play in live music clubs tend to assume that the whole world of "bands and music" is about them, and that anything else is irrelevant and not in scope or consideration. Which is really what I'm poking my stick at... :poke: There's more to "playing music in a band" than "playing professionally in live music clubs", but if you hang around in this forum for long, you start to wonder... GaJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hegmatronicon Posted April 7, 2010 Members Share Posted April 7, 2010 A bar is way more than head counts. Head count is part of it ,, but ,,, Its more about how much each person spends and what they spend money on. as much as you guys dont want to grab onto this ,, older crowds make bars more money. A good entertainer who can really pack a place with an older crowd will produce more profits Strongly disagree. Usually the "younger crowd" is out to party - have a good time, drink drink drink! I know i can easily burn through $100/$150AUD over the course of a good few hours drinking at a pub/bar/club while watching a band. And thats not necessarily a big night. While the "older crowd" is usually not on a giant bender/binge for the weekend and tends to drink considerably less per person than the young/dumb/full of *** kids out to wreak havoc on their livers. And there isnt that much of a difference between what they are drinking either. Beer and spirits for the boys - and alco-pop drinks for the girls usually (or wine). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Remedy Posted April 7, 2010 Members Share Posted April 7, 2010 totally agree Hegmatronicon, the young crowd will drink more, spend more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members modulusman Posted April 7, 2010 Members Share Posted April 7, 2010 totally agree Hegmatronicon, the young crowd will drink more, spend more I also agree. My band plays mostly country but we have alot of college age fans. Some other bands in the area will have a mostly older crowd that is there to country dance. They will pay the cover then drink water all night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted April 7, 2010 Members Share Posted April 7, 2010 Zappa never got rich, you know what I'm saying. He didn't live in a shack either. In fact, I seem to recall his house being quite nice and sizeable, in a very well-to-do area of town. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted April 7, 2010 Members Share Posted April 7, 2010 I can only say working in the technology field, this is totally not the case. I work with 25 year old guys that make $125K+ and 45-year-olds that make $50K. The 25-year-old kid bills at $272.50 an hour, the 45-yr-old bills at $100 an hour. No mystery as to their salary discrepancy. Same experience here, generally speaking. More accurately: you won't last long in tech as an implementor if you don't produce results that are comparable to what the other guys can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted April 7, 2010 Members Share Posted April 7, 2010 Just as an interesting aside: a good number of visual artists assign themselves an hourly wage and then determine the prices for their works by keeping track of the time they spent on a piece. That's cool if they can do that. I have wondered before how they deterimine the value of a particular piece. Unfortunately, music doesn't work that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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