Don't post in this forum if you play for free

[Vito Corleone]

Is someone really going to argue that open mics are bad for live music and earning a wage playing?

 

 

As someone who has been playing pro for 30 years, I don't see open mics as bad for live music and earning a wage. Except maybe at the very lowest rung. The clubs doing open mics are, by and large, the ones who otherwise would only be hiring the cheapest bands anyway. I suppose an argument could be made that open mics takes away a lot of $200 a night gigs. But I can't see how it has any effect on better paying stuff.

[Vito Corleone]

Now, do it for 15+ years, build a solid rep among musicians and fans as one of the if not the very baddest ass guitarists in town, and tell me you can't gig on the strength of that.

 

Without an ability to draw a crowd? No, I don't believe even that guy could gig simply on the strength of that without being able to draw a crowd. Are you saying he does/did?

[Vito Corleone]

well I don't think the group I'm in sucks and people do want to hear us cause we get hired -average pay is 2k a gig for four guys.

 

You're playing a different market to what the subject is here, I think. I do the same thing you do. The audience size is pre-determined, our job is simply to entertain the folks already there. We don't have to 'draw' anybody. Your first post (as I took it anyway) implied that people will pay you to be good even if you don't draw anybody and everyone here (including me) took that to mean in public/club situations, not private events.

[Vito Corleone]

as much as you guys dont want to grab onto this ,, older crowds make bars more money. A good entertainer who can really pack a place with an older crowd will produce more profits

 

 

THAT depends on the venue. A nightclub with pricey drinks and meals? Yes, the older crowd is going to spend more. A loud dance club? Maybe not.

 

I related a story in another thread about how another band and my band both draw and hold similarly sized crowds in the same club. The other band brings the bar more money than we do though. Why? Because their crowd of 300+ 20-somethings slam down more shots in a 3-4 hour period than does our crowd of 300+ 30-somethings.

 

Of course, there's a lot less puke on the floor and less fights to break up for the clubowner to deal with at the end of the night with our band...

[wades_keys]

Without an ability to draw a crowd? No, I don't believe even that guy could gig simply on the strength of that without being able to draw a crowd. Are you saying he does/did?

 

I saw his band play to small crowds, smaller draw than our band gets.

 

I also saw his band play to medium and large crowds.

 

I also saw his band calendar: that guy played a paying gig every day of the week except Sunday (he played in a local baptist church every sunday as a volunteer)

 

The point I'm trying to make is the rep got him there - his band made about twice the rate that everyone else gets, and they didn't have to "prove themselves" or "guarantee a draw" or anything like that.

[TrickyBoy]

I saw his band play to small crowds, smaller draw than our band gets. I also saw his band play to medium and large crowds. I also saw his band calendar: that guy played a paying gig every day of the week except Sunday (he played in a local baptist church every sunday as a volunteer) The point I'm trying to make is the rep got him there - his band made about twice the rate that everyone else gets, and they didn't have to "prove themselves" or "guarantee a draw" or anything like that.

 

 

Two points.

 

1. Yes proven bands/players get booked on rep alone without guaranteeing a draw, etc.

 

2. I've seen way too many of these "proven" bands slowly fade away because all the do is live off their laurels and stop promoting/drawing people. Eventually, the clubs figure out that booking these guys is a bad deal.

[BlueStrat]

However, the premise of this thread was a blanket one: if you play for free, you should not post in this forum.

 

 

The premise of the OP was sarcasm directed at me, based on a discussion we had in another thread, which you also apparently missed.

 

We were having a discussion about playing for free. A guy posted a thread bragging how he'd played a gig all night long by himself twice and got paid in T shirts and was being asked back, and didn't mention being paid. I wondered why anyone would come into a forum for working musicians trying to get ahead at what they do and brag about playing for free. That's when the OP posted this thread.

[BlueStrat]

I also agree. My band plays about mostly country but we have alot of college age fans. Some other bands in the area will have a mostly older crowd that is there to country dance. They will pay the cover then drink water all night.

Different area I guess. My crowd is 35-60 and I'm consitiently in the top 5% for till ringouts s at some of the places I play. The people I play for drink mostly cocktails, not draft beer.

[Vito Corleone]

I saw his band play to small crowds, smaller draw than our band gets. I also saw his band play to medium and large crowds. I also saw his band calendar: that guy played a paying gig every day of the week except Sunday (he played in a local baptist church every sunday as a volunteer) The point I'm trying to make is the rep got him there - his band made about twice the rate that everyone else gets, and they didn't have to "prove themselves" or "guarantee a draw" or anything like that.

 

 

A rep will get you money too. Of course, a big part of his rep is likely based on past-ability-to-draw. I suppose its possible that these clubowners don't mind losing money on the guy simply because they are such fans and/or philanthropists, but such clubowners would be more the exception than the rule.

 

I do know clubowners that will book certain acts they personally like or think add cache to their club that don't make as much money as other acts. But they don't--can't--book acts like that EVERY night. You're more likely to see these acts on a Thursday or Sunday than on a weekend.

[wades_keys]

A rep will get you money too. Of course, a big part of his rep is likely based on past-ability-to-draw. I suppose its possible that these clubowners don't mind losing money on the guy simply because they are such fans and/or philanthropists, but such clubowners would be more the exception than the rule. I do know clubowners that will book certain acts they personally like or think add cache to their club that don't make as much money as other acts. But they don't--can't--book acts like that EVERY night. You're more likely to see these acts on a Thursday or Sunday than on a weekend.

 

That is definitely true - that band had fans for sure.

 

They're still around but not the same without Dave.

[rhat]

Different area I guess. My crowd is 35-60 and I'm consitiently in the top 5% for till ringouts s at some of the places I play. The people I play for drink mostly cocktails, not draft beer.

Where I am ,,, the older crowd starts rolling in early ,, say 430 to 500pm, have a o couple rounds,, then order dinner then hang around for the band or solo artist show. they do load out early though ,,because the entertainment stops at 1030 ... then you get the second wave of locals who are getting off work because the bars slow down. Resort town. The places typically swing around sunset shows and dinner. the name of the game is to get them in early ,, then keep them as late as you can.

So basically we have those older people in there for 5 hours eating and drinking ....Small bars not that much room for them to dance ,, so if you cant dance you drink. I know a ton of people who run and have worked the bars and everyone of them say the older crowd spends more money .. and we are also a spring break meca so its not like they dont know the younger crowds. I guess it depends on the bar ,,, I can see a country bar that had alot of country dancers not selling alot of food and beer ,, after all they are there to dance. Our people come to eat and drink ,,,, and they do it well

[wades_keys]

Where I am ,,, the older crowd starts rolling in early ,, say 430 to 500pm, have a o couple rounds,, then order dinner then hang around for the band or solo artist show. they do load out early though ,,because the entertainment stops at 1030 ... then you get the second wave of locals who are getting off work because the bars slow down. Resort town. The places typically swing around sunset shows and dinner. the name of the game is to get them in early ,, then keep them as late as you can. So basically we have those older people in there for 5 hours eating and drinking ....Small bars not that much room for them to dance ,, so if you cant dance you drink. I know a ton of people who run and have worked the bars and everyone of them say the older crowd spends more money .. and we are also a spring break meca so its not like they dont know the younger crowds. I guess it depends on the bar ,,, I can see a country bar that had alot of country dancers not selling alot of food and beer ,, after all they are there to dance. Our people come to eat and drink ,,,, and they do it well

 

I went to see a band that had a full dance floor of old fogeys, and a bartender that was standing around doing nothing.

 

The ring was terrible: nobody left the dance floor to go to the bar for drinks, and there was lots of water and soft drinks. (I know this because the bartender was the brother-in-law of the guy I went with; we were looking to get one of my old bands a gig there...)

 

Good band - wrong crowd - bad ring.

[Vito Corleone]

I went to see a band that had a full dance floor of old fogeys, and a bartender that was standing around doing nothing.

Every bar has it's own "scene". I played a place once where the clubowner asked us to slow down the tempo of the show because everyone was dancing TOO much and nobody was buying drinks.

[wades_keys]

Every bar has it's own "scene". I played a place once where the clubowner asked us to slow down the tempo of the show because everyone was dancing TOO much and nobody was buying drinks.

I'm not surprised at that.

[TrickyBoy]

Obviously others can reply, but I'm particularly interested in his opinion.

AND I'm not trying to start WWIII here, I'm just thinking that if there is a good answer to this it would be useful to the younger bands out there.

Starting with two premises:

1. Bands that play for free or drastically discounted fees hurt all band's ability to earn appropriate fees. This has been Pat's argument throughout various posts, and I tend to agree with him.
2. The only way to get better playing live is to play live. There is no substitute. I absolutely believe this.

Where should a young band go play live and "hone their craft"?

I mean actors have community theater. It's an unpaid opportunity to get in front of a crowd and act. After a while, they can look at equity productions where they get paid.

What's the equivalent for a young band? I rule out "open mic nights, because they are generally geared toward guitarist/singer types and don't really cater to having a band set up their drums, etc. and play as a full band. So what other options are there? Private parties??? Depending on the area, those can be few and far between and often end with a courtesy visit from the local police.

[Vito Corleone]

I'm not surprised at that.

 

 

The concept makes sense. But it's far more the exception than it is the norm, in my experience. Much more common is "take too long between songs or play too many slow songs and you'll lose the crowd." When playing a new club for the first time I try to get a feel from the owner and staff on what works best for their club: how much dancing do you want---do ballads work here---how long of breaks do you like, etc. This was a club where we were told "keep the floor packed as much as you can". Then I guess it was too much.

 

Oh well. Can't please all the people all the time, that's for sure.

[wikwox]

So you don't like all original bands? I always get paid and have for many years but in no way do I think the play for free bands diminish what we get paid or the amount of work available. Simply put these people don't draw, don't entertain and don't attract or keep a crowd. Club owners give it a try, lose money and give it up.

[GreenAsJade]

Obviously others can reply, but I'm particularly interested in his opinion. AND I'm not trying to start WWIII here, I'm just thinking that if there is a good answer to this it would be useful to the younger bands out there. Starting with two premises: 1. Bands that play for free or drastically discounted fees hurt all band's ability to earn appropriate fees. This has been Pat's argument throughout various posts, and I tend to agree with him. 2. The only way to get better playing live is to play live. There is no substitute. I absolutely believe this. Where should a young band go play live and "hone their craft"?

 

 

You have nailed it. As usual.

 

I came to a full understanding of Point #1 through reading threads in this forum - it wasn't obvious to me when I started how much of an issue this is, and this forum educated me. I support these discussions and this argument.

 

However, it is the complete lack of acknowledgement of Point #2 that gets up my nose in this place.

 

It seems that you have to step out of the bedroom into a paid band in order to be even worthy of posting here, of being considered "in a band". That is the premise of the OP in this thread (sarcastic or not it may have been, but look how many people agreed earnestly...)

 

People who play for free - really, meaning "play at live music bars for free where others might get paid" are known as "barbarians at the gate" here.

 

But the babes are being thrown out with the barbarians, in this place.

 

Thankfully, here in Adelaide we have band friendly open mics, so I can play for free and get live experience with a clean conscience. Maybe y'all ought to start these where you live?

 

In the mean time, if I wander in here from time to time and see discussions where people behave as if the only legitimate band in the world is one that plays paid gigs in live music venues, because this happens to be what _they_ do ... I'll probably call it. Just for fun, you know?

 

GaJ

 

side note:

 

The premise of the OP was sarcasm directed at me, based on a discussion we had in another thread, which you also apparently missed.

 

Excuuuuuuse me for not avidly following every discussion you take part in Pat, so that I can pick it up instantly in new threads when they start. I know that the world really revolves around you, because you told us that before... clearly this thread _must have been_ all about you too... I'm just not with the program, eh?

[wades_keys]

There are open mics here that are most certainly not a threat to any working band, at least not one with any real credibility.

[GreenAsJade]

So you don't like all original bands? I always get paid and have for many years but in no way do I think the play for free bands diminish what we get paid or the amount of work available. Simply put these people don't draw, don't entertain and don't attract or keep a crowd. Club owners give it a try, lose money and give it up.

Man, I'm really coming to appreciate little ole Adelaide!

We have a club that just does this and is doing fine... they even let us play there, _and_ paid us

GaJ

[wades_keys]

Man, I'm really coming to appreciate little ole Adelaide! We have a club that just does this and is doing fine... they even let us play there, _and_ paid us GaJ

The scene is always bigger than any of us give it credit for: you just have to go look I guess.

I mean - when I was in the classic rock band and my current band at the same time, the guys in the classic rock band weren't even considering trying to play gigs at the places where Logan Street plays.

THey didn't know some of these places even booked music.

{censored}, we played on a freaking wharf last year, for full pay. Who the hell would think to call up a WHARF and get a gig there?

I think some people really should broaden their horizons a bit.

[rhat]

I went to see a band that had a full dance floor of old fogeys, and a bartender that was standing around doing nothing. The ring was terrible: nobody left the dance floor to go to the bar for drinks, and there was lots of water and soft drinks. (I know this because the bartender was the brother-in-law of the guy I went with; we were looking to get one of my old bands a gig there...) Good band - wrong crowd - bad ring.

 

 

yea i can see that. We are in a resort ,, these people party. They may be a little younger too. Lots of early retired down there due to down sizing and people just saying screw it ,, I will retire. We also have alot of canadians ,, they drink like fish. It may be atmosphere too.....the front man really knows how to work a crowd. Like anything your milage will vary. You also have to figure that you are in a place where people are still workin for a living. Down where I am they are retired and have money and tend to live a little harder drink mixed drinks and eat out alot. Every one that rolls through town is there to really let their hair down. That may be the difference.

[TrickyBoy]

Man, I'm really coming to appreciate little ole Adelaide! We have a club that just does this and is doing fine... they even let us play there, _and_ paid us GaJ

One thing Pat is definitely correct about, and gets missed in these forums a lot, is that everything is regional. I'm in an area that really caters to bands so long as you are a cover band that can keep a few hundred people entertained (and drinking). Pat's area isn't nearly as supportive of the music scene (at least based on what I've read).

Yours seems to be really supportive of local music. That's awesome. But y'all also eat Vegemite, and that stuffs nasty... :poke:

[wades_keys]

One thing Pat is definitely correct about, and gets missed in these forums a lot, is that everything is regional. I'm in an area that really caters to bands so long as you are a cover band that can keep a few hundred people entertained (and drinking). Pat's area isn't nearly as supportive of the music scene (at least based on what I've read). Yours seems to be really supportive of local music. That's awesome. But y'all also eat Vegemite, and that stuffs nasty... :poke:

 

Louisville is real similar to Pat's neck of the woods, scene wise.

 

A lot of VERY talented folks here are out of work: one of those guys is woking the 7/11 up the street from me probably as I speak.

 

The market has changed - bands have to try and adapt.

 

Like I said: find the gigs in places where you wouldn't expect - don't {censored}ing follow the leader, make the calls and find the gigs.

 

If ya don't do that, all ya got is to sit back and lament the loss of this or that club or scene.

 

{censored}, I could do that all day just as a music FAN - let alone a player.

 

It's all about being creative man, and my band I think practices what I'm preaching.

 

We've got a gig at a ball game.

 

We've played on a wharf

 

We play at riverfront spots that are "off the radar" but a good fit for our band and those that would want to see it.

 

We're creative.

 

My other band wasn't.

 

This band gigs.

 

That band doesn't.

 

You don't have to rolll over and die - get creative, make your own gig.

 

We've gotten a few gigs that basically involved getting the owner to commit to LIVE MUSIC in the first place.

 

You can't expect places to host live bands if you're too chicken {censored} to make the call or if you're waiting for other bands to gig there first.

 

So the way I see it, if a band REALLY wants to make a difference, then change the damn scene - one club at a time. Talk clubs into having YOUR band in there even if they've never had any other band in there.

 

Get events to book A BAND - YOUR BAND.

 

Y'all sell yourselves short - you don't sell.....I wish I could hook some of you cats up with our leader - he's a pro salesman in real life and that pays off so damn big and is driving what I am talking about.

[BlueStrat]

It seems that you have to step out of the bedroom into a paid band in order to be even worthy of posting here, of being considered "in a band". That is the premise of the OP in this thread (sarcastic or not it may have been, but look how many people agreed earnestly...)

 

 

Well, hate to break it to ya, but that's how it was done for decades. Even in high school, when we were 16 year old kids, we found youth centers, BOBs and such that paid at least something. Then again, the idea that music should be performed for free back then was pretty foreign to most of us, and bands didn't go out and gig until they were ready for it,. It may have meant a year i the basement practicing, but we still had fun doing it. Bands these days are in such a hurry to get in front of an audience that they'll give it away to get there sooner.

 

I realize things are different, and there are some places a young band needs to play to get their feet wet. I just don't get why it has to be for free. Call me crazy.