Don't post in this forum if you play for free

[SwampMusic]

It all goes towards the percieved value of your service. For example if you put something like an older TV out in front of your house with a FREE sign on it, chances are no one will want it and you will end up taking it to the dump. However if you put a sign on it that says $20 people will then see a real bargain (A working TV for $20) and the product will move. Don't forget about the percieved value of something that is being offered for free. Max

That's pretty close, Max. But it's far more likely that when you put the $20 sign on it, someone will steal it. But your analogy is accurate. If you put no value on your efforts, why should anyone else?

[pickinatit]

I've been gigging for the past 25 years. 99,5 % of all my gigs were paid gigs - I only had to pay once for my own drinks. We traditionally do 1 free gig per year - always some kind of fund-raiser (Alzheimer foundation, MS-foundation, - you get the gist) but that's where it stops. Our biggest competitiors aren't other bands - our main competion are DJ's (although I DJ myself sometimes . . . .)

:poke: No Posting on this site if you ever take the money out of the pockets of professional musicians by D J ' ing.

[nitekattz2007]

I have been playing in cover bands, blues and jazz groups, all playing covers and standards for a long time and always found groups that got paid for the club work, weddings, events. Starting out as an original band is a different story and it is usually tough to get paid playing your original material unless you have some high end management running things like tours, CD parties, stuff like that supporting you.

 

Many pro musicians in good cover bands depend on that extra money they get paid for playing even if they have a 9-5 weekday job. Some club owners have gotten spoiled because local bands will come in and play for free, tips, beer, whatever. And the clubs that do pay bands, the rate has been $200-300 for the last 25 years. That is one job that never kept up with inflation.

 

Good musicians have spent money on lessons, books, classes, schools and equipment to get to a professional level and be good enough to find work with bands that get paid to play. It's a passion and dedication to become a pro player and I believe it needs to be compensated fairly.

 

katt

[wades_keys]

You must get paid for every gig you play or you are ruining it for every hard working musician out there....period

Somebody must have stepped on a duck.

[wades_keys]

I said it was a big {censored} you to working guys. Which it is. If someone wants to share about how wonderful it is to go out and play for free beer, they can go to www.iplayforfreebeer.com/forums or somesuch and have a blast.

That doesn't happen here except for at {censored} holes that no one will step foot in anyway.

Diane and I still joke about this Blues Brothers gig I did with an alt-country group at a dive called "Lisa's".

My take of the door was like 7 bucks but I rang about 80+ at the bar between her and I. The way they were changing the arrangements and generally tanking the tunes, I HAD to get hammered.

Ah, good times....

[wades_keys]

I did another {censored} gig for the door at a joint called "Union Station"

That place was so bad, we were calling it "Urine Station"

Think I made 13 bucks for door take for that fiasco

Never again

[FFFrontman]

I have no problem with charity work. We've done it as a band and I've donated my equipment and time to worthy causes. I also tend to view this as good karma, if not just me returning something to society.

Still, I think the problem is far less about musicians doing it for free and bar owners expecting others to do it for free. I understand it's business, but since when does being a business owner mean that you lose all common sense???

Take what you can get for free and be happy about it, but don't expect something for nothing.

[Brian Krashpad]

[BlueStrat]

"The road goes on forever, and the party never ends...."

[rhat]

"The road goes on forever, and the party never ends...."

Its like riding motorcycles in texas....

[MartinC]

Original bands, especially new and unestablished ones, don't have much of an option in some markets. The indie rock band in which I play drums is just now starting to make a tiny bit of money after playing for a year. The one which does my original material will play our next show for a cover, but everyone who comes will get an EP so it's fair. But... I think cover bands (including mine) should never play for free unless it's a benefit.

 

 

It's hard for me to get my head around this in a way. I get that the market for original bands in your area may be such that it's hard to get paid, but do you think your original material band is any less entertaining? Worth less? Does it draw less? Why? Is it because the players aren't as good or simply because people in your area won't go out to hear original music but will for covers/mashups? I really think it could be, in some cases, more about the bands themselves, who have accepted the idea that them playing their music isn't worth as much as them playing their version of hits, which, let's face it, rarely come close to equaling the original artists.

 

In my little world of gigs, it's the players, not the music, that create the value. Reputation, experience, and skill of the players is what creates the value. I would think that as the front man for your well paid mashup band, you'd command similiar dollars for any band you fronted, unless the material was really really out there. It's still you up there singing, playing, entertaining.

 

But I'm also not working in traditional original rock clubs, and i think that is the big difference. I did an original music gig last week in a restaurant. They paid at least 800.00(not my gig, so i don't know the actual amount) for three sets, four guys. Probably lost money on the deal, but the deal was struck, and the guy paid. I guess if i was in a well paid cover band, doing a cheap gig playing original music wouldn't be a big deal, but truth be told, to me it doesn't make sense for some music to pay more than other music when it's the same guys playing it. From the musicians perspective, time is time. i get how a 15 piece band is not going to earn as much per player as a four piece, but the same four guys one night play covers, the next play originals, one night earn 200 a man, next night nothing? That is strange. Are bar owners that hung up on song lists everywhere else but here? I've never been asked to produce one. I'm really surprised by the dominance nationwide of cover bands when it comes to paying gigs. Or is this just in dance clubs?

[BlueStrat]

Its like riding motorcycles in texas....

[JailTime]

I guess if i was in a well paid cover band, doing a cheap gig playing original music wouldn't be a big deal, but truth be told, to me it doesn't make sense for some music to pay more than other music when it's the same guys playing it. From the musicians perspective, time is time. i get how a 15 piece band is not going to earn as much per player as a four piece, but the same four guys one night play covers, the next play originals, one night earn 200 a man, next night nothing? That is strange. Are bar owners that hung up on song lists everywhere else but here? I've never been asked to produce one. I'm really surprised by the dominance nationwide of cover bands when it comes to paying gigs. Or is this just in dance clubs?

 

 

Time is time - what's ironic is that writing one original song - with the rewrites, honing, arrangements, harmonies, lyrics et al - requires hours of time, where learning Dead Flowers takes 10 minutes.

 

Eh, it's a lost argument. Get people in the club - that's much more influential than a songlist. a certain percentage of people will go see original music. A much larger percentage will want to hear something thehy know.

[gspointer]

The OP was responding to my statement in another thread where I said I thought it was trollish to come into a forum for working musicians and brag about playing free gigs. I said it was a big {censored} you to working guys. Which it is. If someone wants to share about how wonderful it is to go out and play for free beer, they can go to www.iplayforfreebeer.com/forums or somesuch and have a blast. But most guys here are trying to figure out how to promote and sharpen their skills, and up their game to move up the ladder and get better, and ultimately earn better money and get more gigs. This whole thread is epic fail.

Hey, check your link, it doesn't work for me.

[Vito Corleone]

it doesn't make sense for some music to pay more than other music when it's the same guys playing it. From the musicians perspective, time is time. i get how a 15 piece band is not going to earn as much per player as a four piece, but the same four guys one night play covers, the next play originals, one night earn 200 a man, next night nothing?

 

 

At the end of the day, if you're playing music for the public and you want to get paid for it, it is a business. The idea that the same band should get paid the same regardless of what material they play is only valid if the band itself is the entire reason for the draw and they would draw the same crowd regardless of what they played. Few bands or musicians are that singularly popular. WHAT they play is at LEAST as important as who is playing it and/or how they play it. Heck, even major acts have to play the hits or they aren't going to work for as much money. How much do you think U2 would be able to earn on their next tour if they announced "we're only playing stuff from our next album on this tour"? A fraction of what they would get playing the songs people know and love.

 

Musicians aren't just getting paid for their time to stand on stage and create musical sounds out of instruments and voices, or just for their personal presence. They are getting paid specifically to perform a service, and that service is to entertain audiences. And if more audiences are entertained in a manner that puts more money in the clubowners pocket by hearing bands play songs they already know as opposed to original material...well...that may suck from the perspective of many musicians, but its the nature of the business.

[Vito Corleone]

Time is time - what's ironic is that writing one original song - with the rewrites, honing, arrangements, harmonies, lyrics et al - requires hours of time, where learning Dead Flowers takes 10 minutes.

 

True. But you're asking people to pay you for your time. As the one writing the paycheck, it's only the end result I'm interested in, not how long it took you to achieve it. So why should I pay you more to hear a song it took you hours to write as opposed to the one it took you 10 minutes to learn?

 

Let's play out a scenario: You want me to pay you to peform one song. Convince me that the performance of the original song that took you ten times longer to create than did the performance of the cover song is worth ten times more and that I should pay you ten times more to do the first one. I'm all ears.

[TrickyBoy]

but truth be told, to me it doesn't make sense for some music to pay more than other music when it's the same guys playing it. From the musicians perspective, time is time.

 

 

Pretty simple. I play in a cheesy cover band that can draw 200 people to a club consistently and I play in a blues/jazz band that might draw 30. Guess which one gets paid more.

[jdgm]

You must get paid for every gig you play or you are ruining it for every hard working musician out there....period

What complete and utter BOLLOCKS.

DJs and karaoke are also arguably ruining it for every "hard working musician".
You are obviously not someone who has ever run a live music venue.
Nobody wants to pay 4-6 guys when they can pay 1 or 2.
In the 80s and early 90s I wouldn't gig for less than 50 quid but that has changed now. It's an expensive hobby, as Lowell George once said.
You don't know how lucky you are to even have a gig.
And you don't play jazz either, do you?

[MartinC]

Pretty simple. I play in a cheesy cover band that can draw 200 people to a club consistently and I play in a blues/jazz band that might draw 30. Guess which one gets paid more.

 

 

I guess I don't get it because I don't have a draw and I get paid pretty well to play originals for the most part. It's not about the draw. It's about what we do, what we have done, and how long we have done it. Same as a lot of regular jobs. the guy who has the experience and know how gets more than the rookie. It's not that I don't understand why some clubs only care about the draw. But since it would take me more effort to get people to come out, I choose to work gigs where that doesn't matter. Seems to me that would be in the interest of a lot of musicians, but I rarely see people talking up that angle on the boards, instead agreeing with the draw=pay ideal. At that point, it's more important to be a good promoter than a good player. i'm not interested in being a promoter or I'd do that and not worry about playing.

[GreenAsJade]

Hey, check your link, it doesn't work for me.

 

 

ROFLMAO

[BATCAT]

Convince me that the performance of the original song that took you ten times longer to create than did the performance of the cover song is worth ten times more and that I should pay you ten times more to do the first one. I'm all ears.

 

 

Just as an interesting aside: a good number of visual artists assign themselves an hourly wage and then determine the prices for their works by keeping track of the time they spent on a piece.

[rhat]

LOL Pat when you can look at a thing that you call a bush where you live and can actually call it a tree ,, you are ready to ride in south texas. OH BTW ,,, I sold the electra glide today. The new owner takes delivery tomorrow and I get the cash. Oh yea ,, I also sold my 16 foot larson with the 115 johnson on it today too. Its been an outstanding day. If i can pump the lake house in kzoo out by the end of may ,,,, It will have been a total home run.. and I will be headed back to texas, I rented the texas house out for april and may so as soon as those canadians move out ,, i can get back down to the island and hook back up with the band. Mike has louies booked from now till oct. I it when a plan starts coming together lol.

[GreenAsJade]

Other artists paint for the fun of it.

 

Right now my playing sucks enough that I wouldn't charge anyone for it, but I appreciate someone who'll listen, and I need the experience to get unsucky.

 

So I play at open mics .... gasp... for free. It's a lot of fun.

 

My heart doesn't bleed for the pros that I'm doing out of a wage, because I don't see open mics doing any pros out of any wage.

 

Is someone really going to argue that open mics are bad for live music and earning a wage playing?

 

I guess the Mod better come along and ban me now.

 

GaJ

[MrKnobs]

If you think about it, the invention of recording ruined making a living for about 99% of musicians.

 

Terry D.

[wades_keys]

I guess I don't get it because I don't have a draw and I get paid pretty well to play originals for the most part. It's not about the draw. It's about what we do, what we have done, and how long we have done it. Same as a lot of regular jobs. the guy who has the experience and know how gets more than the rookie. It's not that I don't understand why some clubs only care about the draw. But since it would take me more effort to get people to come out, I choose to work gigs where that doesn't matter. Seems to me that would be in the interest of a lot of musicians, but I rarely see people talking up that angle on the boards, instead agreeing with the draw=pay ideal. At that point, it's more important to be a good promoter than a good player. i'm not interested in being a promoter or I'd do that and not worry about playing.

 

 

You hit that one outta the park.