Guitar Wankery and The Blues...

[New Trail]

An observation, really: I was listening to some blues recordings this weekend, and in particular a Howling Wolf song, when it occurred to me that a lot of old blues didn't have tons of guitar solos, if any at all. They were SONGS, not jams! They had actual PARTS, not just "blues in C." Now, I've seen some of the old guys like Freddie King and BB King live and I know they stretch out in a live situation and play more and it really becomes a little bit more of a jam. Then SRV came along and blew it out of the water jam-wise, when, at the same time, The Fabulous Thunderbirds came out and played more SONGS where soloing was integral to the song. Thoughts?!?

[Vito Corleone]

It's all just personal opinion. Personally, I'm not a big fan of modern blues for the same reasons I'm not a big fan of modern country: there's not a lot of "new" there. If I'm in the mood for the blues, I'm probably gonna pull out some Robert Johnson or Howlin' Wolf. If I'm in the mood for country, I'm gonna pull out some Hank Williams or Patsy Cline. When I'm looking for new artists, I'm looking mostly for stuff I haven't heard before. I don't really need "new" music that sounds 30 years old unless there's a heck of a new spin on it. I DID get enamored with that Amy Winehouse-style retro-R&B vibe for a few weeks there when her album hit, which wasn't 'new' but certainly had a new spin on an old sound.

 

As far as guitar wankery and the blues goes, that whole SRV-jam-out-the-solo thing was just an attempt to make the blues more 'rock', IMO: Add some Hendrix over the old chord changes and sell the blues to a new audience. Was fun and interesting for a while, but I'm not seeing anybody doing anything MORE with the blues since SRV passed some 25 years ago.

 

But again, that's all just personal taste. SRV played some beautiful solos, and I'm not much on listening to long solos. His version of "Little Wing" actually makes me cry. But it seems every new hot blues guitarist I've heard tale of in the past 25 years has pretty much just been doing the SRV thing and trying to 'rock up' the blues.

[BlueStrat]

Depends on who you listen to. Go back and listen to T-Bone Walker, old Albert King, old BB King, Elmore James, Guitar Slim, Long John Hunter, etc.

 

The thing is, solos were kept short of a lot of old blues records for the same reason they were kept short on other records- radio. Blues records were played on what were called 'race radio' stations. They depended on advertising just like anyone else did, and you could put a lot more ads between 2-1/2 minute songs than you could 6 minute ones.

 

One more point: Howlin' Wolf was much more a vocalist than a guitar player, so his songs didn't revolve around guitar. Hubert Sumlin was his lead player.

[DevilRaysFan]

This isnt news for us folks who have loved the blues for a long time and dont play guitar (Im a bass player).

 

The Blues, since the mid-90s, has become a place for people with massive collections of vintage guitars and boutique amps to blow smoke. It has become, in a sense, a rich man's hobby

 

.....rich or not, so many of these guys think that the entire blues universe orbits the guitar.....Im pretty sure when Koko Taylor was learning to sing, she wasnt thinking about what kind of vintage guitar and boutique amp would sound great in her songs...............

 

For me, its the vocals and/or the "spirit of the song" that move me first; the guitar is irrelevent

 

Give The Blues Back To the Poor People.............

[GCDEF]

I don't think SRV was the first to turn blues into extended jams. Johnny Winter and Eric Clapton among others precede him by 20 years or so.

[New Trail]

 

I don't think SRV was the first to turn blues into extended jams.....

 

 

I didn't intend to imply that. Although, I do think, good or bad, he took it to a new level. My point of this thread is that the blues is such a diverse genre that those old-guys-in-hawiian-shirts-weekend-warrior-blues-guys do the blues a disservice when every song sounds the same and just becomes a wankery fest. I think it wears the audience out, too. Again, just an observation.

[Vito Corleone]

 

The thing is, solos were kept short of a lot of old blues records for the same reason they were kept short on other records- radio. Blues records were played on what were called 'race radio' stations. They depended on advertising just like anyone else did, and you could put a lot more ads between 2-1/2 minute songs than you could 6 minute ones.

 

 

And pretty much anything recorded prior to 1950 was recorded for 78s which maxed out at about 3 min per side. The whole concept of the 3 min single is a product of that limitation, and later the similar limitation of 45s.

 

Had 78s been able to hold 6 min comfortably our entire understanding of what constitutes a pop "song" would no doubt be entirely different.

[BlueStrat]

 

I didn't intend to imply that. Although, I do think, good or bad, he took it to a new level. My point of this thread is that the blues is such a diverse genre that those old-guys-in-hawiian-shirts-weekend-warrior-blues-guys do the blues a disservice when every song sounds the same and just becomes a wankery fest. I think it wears the audience out, too. Again, just an observation.

 

 

I agree with you. I could say the same thing about the way those same kind of guys play extended versions of classic rock and butcher classic R&B too, though.

[DevilRaysFan]

 

I agree with you. I could say the same thing about the way those same kind of guys play extended versions of classic rock and butcher classic R&B too, though.

 

 

they usually are the same guys........

[GCDEF]

 

I didn't intend to imply that. Although, I do think, good or bad, he took it to a new level. My point of this thread is that the blues is such a diverse genre that those old-guys-in-hawiian-shirts-weekend-warrior-blues-guys do the blues a disservice when every song sounds the same and just becomes a wankery fest. I think it wears the audience out, too. Again, just an observation.

 

 

I agree. A lot of people miss the point completely.

[Vito Corleone]

Guitar wankery is a problem with almost any genre (at least those involving guitars, obviously....) It has much more to do with the narcissism of the individual player than with the genre.

[DevilRaysFan]

 

Guitar wankery is a problem with almost any genre (at least those involving guitars, obviously....) It has much more to do with the narcissism of the individual player than with the genre.

 

 

narcissism isnt limited to just the guitar: its any instrument..how many overplaying slap-a-holic bass players and "groove like tennis shoes in the clothes dryer" drummers have you worked with?

 

I dont think thats the issue of this thread...

[BlueStrat]

 

Guitar wankery is a problem with almost any genre (at least those involving guitars, obviously....) It has much more to do with the narcissism of the individual player than with the genre.

 

 

 

I get what NT is saying, though...somewhere along the line, blues has morphed from being an expression of the soul to being an easy, predictable platform for dazzling the audience with guitar licks. Most of us who play lead guitar are guilty of it at one point or another.

 

A few years ago I heard a band play "the Thrill Is Gone", and I alway respected that song because of the lyrics. The guitar player stepped forward and launched into this Yngwie Malmsteemn type solo and used the song to pull out every guitar trick he knew, even flipping the pick in the air with his guitar body, and spinning around to catch it. It was hysterically funny, unintentionally I'm sure. I doubt that the guy even knew the words to the song.

 

I once open for a great blues guy who asked me how many guys in my band knew all the lyrics to my songs. He then said that everything that happens in his songs happens to support the story of the song. That really changed my approach.

[Vito Corleone]

 

I once open for a great blues guy who asked me how many guys in my band knew all the lyrics to my songs. He then said that everything that happens in his songs happens to support the story of the song. That really changed my approach.

 

 

That's really the way to look at it, IMO. I try hard to make everybody understand that everything we play is in support of the singer and lyrics. If we're going to add a clever accent or turn-around---cool, but make sure it's something that supports either the melody or the lyrics, otherwise it gets lost on the audience.

[vanlatte]

The Blues, since the mid-90s, has become a place for people with massive collections of vintage guitars and boutique amps to blow smoke. It has become, in a sense, a rich man's hobby

 

The irony of Blues becoming a rich mans hobby is hysterical to me.

 

Somebody should write a (blues) song about it.

[TrickyBoy]

There's a lot of people making great blues albums today. I recently picked up Matt Shofield's Heads, Tails and Aces and Scott Henderson's Tore Down House. Tore Down House in particular really blew me away.

 

I think the big problem with Blues today is that everyone's first scale they learn on guitar is the Pentatonic scale, add in the b5 and you've ogt your blues scale. As a result it's a very easy genre of music to get mildly OK at. But very few people study it and really understand what's going on, and as a result, very few people actually ever become GOOD at playing blues. But sit down and listen to one of those guys, and they'll knock your socks off!

 

Another thing, a 5-minute extended guitar solo can be done amazingly tastefully and without wankery, whereas a 20 second solo can be a complete wank-fest. Don't confuse solo-length as a level of wankery.

[DevilRaysFan]

 

I think the big problem with Blues today is that everyone's first scale they learn on guitar is the Pentatonic scale, add in the b5 and you've ogt your blues scale. As a result it's a very easy genre of music to get mildly OK at.

 

 

You can also buy amps these days with "Tone" already there...just plug in and play...............

[TrickyBoy]

 

Guitar wankery is a problem with almost any genre (at least those involving guitars, obviously....) It has much more to do with the narcissism of the individual player than with the genre.

 

 

IMO wankery is a direct result of a lot of people's obsession with TECHNIQUE over musicality. A guy spends tons of hours learning how to sweep pick arpeggios, but never spends the time to learn the proper context to utilize this technique. So, he takes the attitude of "damn those sound cool" and shoehorns them in anywhere he can.

 

Conversely, if one takes the time to think MUSICALITY first and then worry about technique, there will be instances where a sweep picking arp is tastefully utilized and enhances to solo as a whole. Unfortunately, too many people are happy just going as fast as possible.

[ggm1960]

 

somewhere along the line, blues has morphed from being an expression of the soul to being an easy, predictable platform for dazzling the audience with guitar licks. Most of us who play lead guitar are guilty of it at one point or another.

 

 

I'd imagine most of us guitar players began forming our lead chops to the overworked three chord blues progressions from the day we saw a dot chart of the Am pentatonic scale. In my generation you could also add 30+ minute versions of Stranglehold and Freebird!

[pinkfloydcramer61]

So how could modern blues actually be modern, as opposed to slavishly re-creating the classic stuff? Incorporate modern keyboard technology? Add more elements of soul/R&B/funk and yes, RAP/HIP-HOP? What's modern about modern rock and might some of those traits translate to blues?

 

I think there's more actually modern blues out there than us rocker dudes know about. I myself really like what Keb Mo is doing but he is not groundbreaking IMO, he's just writing soulful songs that stretch out beyond the blues format.

[Vito Corleone]

 

IMO wankery is a direct result of a lot of people's obsession with TECHNIQUE over musicality. A guy spends tons of hours learning how to sweep pick arpeggios, but never spends the time to learn the proper context to utilize this technique. So, he takes the attitude of "damn those sound cool" and shoehorns them in anywhere he can. Conversely, if one takes the time to think MUSICALITY first and then worry about technique, there will be instances where a sweep picking arp is tastefully utilized and enhances to solo as a whole. Unfortunately, too many people are happy just going as fast as possible.

 

 

I think it also has a lot to do with a misguided perception in the case of many players that anybody actually cares much about their solos. Or, they are so only concerned with what THEY think that they aren't paying attention to the audience.

 

Sure, there are some blues players and other guitarists who have such a great reputation for soloing that that's what people come to hear. But your average classic rock, R&B or even blues-bar band? How many people are there to hear the lead guitarist do a 5 min solo?

[TrickyBoy]

Again that depends on the genre of music that you play. I think that at times, this board gets dominated by the high-energy, get people dancing, party band crowd, of which I am a card carrying member . However, I see lots of venues where 50 people sit at tables and drink beers all night listening to really good instrumental solos, whether then be guitar or sax or trumpet or keys.

 

In the end though, even in these settings, the people on stage make music with their instruments, they don't vomit technique on the audience.

[New Trail]

I think a lot of it may be that guys in these kinds of bands don't learn songs as SONGS, they just figure out that it's a 12-bar in G, for example, and they get the words, and it's now a part of their song list. Most of the cool blues songs on recordings have PARTS, the guys aren't just jamming, which is all it seems like a lot of weekend warrior type blues guys know how to do, or maybe just all they WANT to do.

[TrickyBoy]

 

I think a lot of it may be that guys in these kinds of bands don't learn songs as SONGS, they just figure out that it's a 12-bar in G, for example, and they get the words, and it's now a part of their song list. Most of the cool blues songs on recordings have PARTS, the guys aren't just jamming, which is all it seems like a lot of weekend warrior type blues guys know how to do, or maybe just all they WANT to do.

 

 

Definitely something to be said for this ^^^^. I WILL walk out of a bar the second I hear a half-assed, not properly learned version of "Pride and Joy" kick in.

[KeysBear]

 

The Blues, since the mid-90s, has become a place for people with massive collections of vintage guitars and boutique amps to blow smoke. It has become, in a sense, a rich man's hobby

 

 

I am constantly being pressured by clubs and promoters to go to blues jams because they all want keyboard players to show up. I work a full time day job and play at my church. Sometimes I squeeze in three gigs and two practices a week. I don't have the time to go jam with rich accountants or similar boring professionals with snotty attitudes. I have yet to have one of them speak to me as if I was a human being. They think they are all that and more. Just my experience, your mileage may vary.