Singers using music stands with lyric sheets

[richardmac]

 

I don't think it's snobbery or puffery to discuss what looks good on stage and what does not. And whether items or actions-of-the-musicians that don't look good on stage detract from the performance and the audiences overall perception of that performance.

 

 

You know, I agree with this - it is not snobbery to discuss what looks good on stage. But it IS snobbery to start throwing around insults. It DOES look better when a musician is not looking at lyrics or sheet music. But it's one factor in the performance and there are many other more important factors.

 

Lots of solo guys play with lyrics or cheat sheets because of what was mentioned earlier (brain farts.) It's one thing to stand there and all you have to do is sing... it's another to sing, be the entertainer, play an instrument, play to a backing track, remember the lyrics, do the guitar solos, etc. It's a lot more work. Some solo guys might have 200+ songs in their list, and may not have practiced some of them for a while, and then they get a request for it...

 

I've seen the reverse, where a solo artist has totally forgotten the words to the song. The rules are different for solo artists. For a band, you can move past this, because most bands are turned up so damn loud no one understands half the vocals anyway. I remember playing a gig when I was like 19 - we were an all original band opening up for the biggest all original band in the city at a packed club, and my amp cut out for 4 bars of the second song. I was pissed and I changed the words in the song to "I wish that my {censored}ing amp would work!" And no one caught it. My parents were there and they didn't catch it. But for a solo guy, forget the words, and it's bad. It's real bad. There's nowhere to hide. I've seen guys restart songs before. Eww.

 

If you are in a band, I think you should definitely try to not use them. If you are a solo performer doing background music, you can get away with it because no one cares. But I'm not going to insult people who use them.

[BATCAT]

that's crazy talk. Bands like that don't exist.

 

 

I forgot... white guys who wear shorts on stage while playing strats and reading lyrics from a music stand AND USING BACKING TRACKS...

[New Trail]

 

Music stands don't belong on stage in a rock band. If you need one, you do not belong on the stage. Go home and learn the songs. Possible exceptions for last minute fill-in players, but never for a front man. Lyrics in front of you is for karaoke, not a professional. You're playing pop/rock covers. Does anyone you're covering go on stage like that? Then why is it OK for you? IMO it's not snobbery to expect professionals to be professional...

 

 

Elvis used lyric sheets on stage, and he needed them too. Check out the last Fat Elvis concert where he forgot the words and started blubbering nonsense. He actually made it work because he was, let's fact it....Elvis....

[3shiftgtr]

 

Again, music stand on stage (at least) implies a certain lack of preparedness/capability. White guy with a strat could be Clapton or SRV or Beck or Belew or Blackmore or Dick Dale or The Edge or Gilmour or Buddy Holly or Eric Johnson or Knopfler or Yngwie or Townshend or Ronnie Wood etc, or a billion other lesser know, but capable/competent guitarists. When you can make the case that the overwhelming majority of white guys with strats are of an inferior quality to other musicians BECAUSE they are white guys using strats, to the point that 'white guy with a strat' is synonomous with 'questionable ability', let's talk basic English more.

 

 

And Coltrane, Miles, Ella, and a huge list of amazing musicians HAVE used them. So ability has nothing to do with it. I was referring to the ridiculous nature of the 'instant walk out".

 

And let's get it straight: it ain't got nothing to do with whether it is good or bad to have one on stage. That is NOT what I am talking about. I am talking about using the concept of "respect" as some sort of bull{censored} justification for an opinion that has purely to do with the visual. And then to just storm out. {censored} what you are HEARING>>>>>

[flanc]

 

Elvis used lyric sheets on stage, and he needed them too. Check out the last Fat Elvis concert where he forgot the words and started blubbering nonsense. He actually made it work because he was, let's fact it....Elvis....

 

 

This speaks to another pet peeve...artists that are blitzed out of their minds to the point of not being able to perform. I guess a music stand can be both a music crutch and a literal one as well.

[Nijyo]

I don't know whether to

 

or

 

[3shiftgtr]

actually, cancelling a gig because the guitar player got in an accident is perfectly reasonable, even if half the band was set up. I'd be at the hospital making sure he was ok.

O.K., he's fine, let's say. But won't be able to make it with towing, gear damage, police reports, having his wife come and pick him up etc.. Better?

We certainly don't need to loose another guitar player.....

[netwerx1]

What about the guitarist/lead vocalist who has an iPad clamped to the mic stand, down low so it doesn't obstruct or distract, used primarily to display the set list...but in a pinch can display lyrics when a song title is tapped?

[3shiftgtr]

What about a keyboard player who has a laptop on his stand and runs his stuff thru it, BUT

 

has lyrics on it?

 

Yyeah, well {censored} HIM and his lack of respect.

 

Respect.....pffffft.

[BATCAT]

What about a keyboard player who has a laptop on his stand and runs his stuff thru it, BUT has lyrics on it? Yyeah, well {censored} HIM and his lack of respect. Respect.....pffffft.

In all seriousness, I think it's about two things:

a)audience engagement
If you're the type of band that's trying to directly engage the audience in a "rock" format, having to read from anything, be it a laptop, paper on the floor, or a music stand detracts from your level of engagement. Now sure, you can have a music stand and not use it much but then you run into

b)audience perception
Despite what some here people think, if you're the type of band described in "a", then a stand on stage- even if you're not relying on it- gives a significant number of people the impression you're not fully prepared.

I think "b" alone is a factor that will detract from the performance of the type of band in question. "a" and "b" together will really detract.

[TrickyBoy]

 

What about a keyboard player who has a laptop on his stand and runs his stuff thru it, BUT has lyrics on it? Yyeah, well {censored} HIM and his lack of respect. Respect.....pffffft.

 

 

Funny thing is that I think in this day and age, I could put a laptop computer up by me (guitarist and co-front person) and have the lyrics on it and no one would give it a second look (especially if it's a Mac). From a perception standpoint, that would probably go over WAY better than a music stand.

[TIMKEYS]

I love threads like these that are full of snobbery and puffery that someone is not professional because they use music or lyrics on a stand. I'll bet a lot of the snobs couldn't read a chart or sketch out a lead part in notation. My lead singer must know three hundred songs but when we bring in new material it takes him about a month to get it burned in. The Motown/Classics band I play with on the side has horn players and works with three different singers who are always changing keys and arrangements on the songs. If I didn't have a cheat sheet taped to my keyboard I'd be lost. The horn players, guitarists, and lead singers use music stands and not one snob has walked out because of it. As for how the band looks on stage I think what happened to me Sunday night is pretty much the norm. We had finished our third set and I went to the men's room. When I walked in there were two guys talking about how good the band was. I said "yeah they kick ass" and neither one of them had a clue that I was in the band, whether we had music stands (we didn't), or if we were Martians. The place was packed. All they cared about was their beer and the girls. We are all so full of our own self importance it's not funny.

 

 

LOL pretty much ,, playing keys you are pretty much in the backline. You could prolly play naked and no one would notice till you had to go take a piss and the police hauled you out.

 

" did you see the police haul that old naked fat guy out"? They prolly would not even notice the keyboard player was missing.

[3shiftgtr]

You could prolly play naked and no one would notice till you had to go take a piss and the police hauled you out. " did you see the police haul that old naked fat guy out"? They prolly would not even notice the keyboard player was missing.

:lol: Bringin the lulz! :lol:

[3shiftgtr]

And let me again make it clear:

It is not about a dislike for seeing a music stand, and it's detraction from the visual aspect of a performance and therefore the overall experience. That is a valid and reasonable opinion.

 

It is about being so sour about it that it becomes a prejudice. And using "respect for the music" as a flag for that prejudice. Remember: "Even if it is the best band in the world.". So all of your favorite musicians are playing the greatest music you have ever heard, and filling the room with the most amazing feeling you've ever felt, and you walk out cuz of a music stand.

 

Matter of principle? Maybe. Respect? Nope.

[jwlussow]

 

I understand your reasoning for why it is dis-pleasurable for you to see a band with a music stand. It makes sense. Cuz you are relating what you see as part of the whole experience. Valid. But to walk out on a band for that reason and that reason only, implies that your idea of musical respect is valid. It is opinion stated in the form of disgust. But to bring respect into the equation is foolhardy. It has nothing to do with respect. Your concept of respect for music is short sighted and bigoted. So, its a friday night, guitarist has a car wreck and can't make the gig. You know someone who can come in short notice, doesn't know all the tunes, but has charts for the ones he doesn't know. And can nail the gig with charts. It is a guitar, bass drum vox gig. No guitarist, no gig. WELL {censored} THAT! Cancel the gig out of respect! The bar owner gets mad and you loose the gig. SO WHAT! Respect the music, man! The owner talks to all the other bar owners and says, "All the {censored} was set up, and they had a player to do the gig, but they said they wouldn't do it cuz the sub might use a music stand! People turned away at the door. Don't EVER hire these guys." Respect. Yeah. That is what it is all about. Your opinion regarding the extreme dislike of music stands is valid, but your POV regarding musical respect is egregious.

 

 

Like dan88z, I'm at the hospital with my guitarist, {censored} the gig. Life is more important. Are we losing sight that the question was about singers in front and center hiding behind a music stand. Keyboard players and drummers can hide the fact that they are using music? A singer front and center can't. He, she or they are simply hiding behind the stand because a) they have no self confidence or b) they refuse to put a little effort into the band. I say {censored} the bar owner that refuses to rebook the band because of an auto accident.

 

I do see your priorities are askew from mine. I would be by the side of my guitarist first and worry about the gig second. I would also put in the time and effort to not need to hide behind a music stand. That is what I consider respect. Respect for the music and the audience. Go ahead and hide. If that works for you go nuts. I will still walk out of your show because I can't show respect to people that don't have any respect for the audience. There are plenty of musical genres where a music stand to totally acceptable. Rock music is simply not one of them.

 

I also believe "thou dost protest too much". Get out from behind the crutch and start enjoying your gigs.

 

Respect the audience and the music and actually put some effort into getting away from the crutch.

 

I've been performing live for over 34 years. I have every right not to make myself sit through a set by a bunch of hack musicians that don't care enough about the gig to actually learn the music. Sorry. Lots of excuses out there but with almost 2000 gigs under my belt I don't have to listen to whining or a band that is too lazy to either learn the music or find a way to use cheat sheets that don't put a barrier between themselves and the audience.

[jwlussow]

 

Funny thing is that I think in this day and age, I could put a laptop computer up by me (guitarist and co-front person) and have the lyrics on it and no one would give it a second look (especially if it's a Mac). From a perception standpoint, that would probably go over WAY better than a music stand.

 

 

Absolutely. It would be an acceptable replacement for a music stand and would not be considered an artificial or real barrier between the band and the audience. There are ways to not make the need for a crutch so obvious. I've seen iPads attached to music stands and it is fine. Much less obtrusive and it also gives the appearance of a more modern show. My real problem is the music stand, not the fact that the singer/performer needs help.

[3shiftgtr]

Like dan88z, I'm at the hospital with my guitarist, {censored} the gig. Life is more important. Are we losing sight that the question was about singers in front and center hiding behind a music stand. Keyboard players and drummers can hide the fact that they are using music? A singer front and center can't. He, she or they are simply hiding behind the stand because a) they have no self confidence or b) they refuse to put a little effort into the band. I say {censored} the bar owner that refuses to rebook the band because of an auto accident. I do see your priorities are askew from mine. I would be by the side of my guitarist first and worry about the gig second. I would also put in the time and effort to not need to hide behind a music stand. That is what I consider respect. Respect for the music and the audience. Go ahead and hide. If that works for you go nuts. I will still walk out of your show because I can't show respect to people that don't have any respect for the audience. There are plenty of musical genres where a music stand to totally acceptable. Rock music is simply not one of them. I also believe "thou dost protest too much". Get out from behind the crutch and start enjoying your gigs. Respect the audience and the music and actually put some effort into getting away from the crutch.

 

 

Let's make this perfectly clear: I AM NOT ADVOCATING FOR OR AGAINST THE USE OF MUSIC STANDS ON STAGE. As I said, I understand your point regarding their use and it is a valid one.

 

What is not valid is your use of respect as your reason to not use one, but your reason to WALK OUT. What I am talking about is what you said about walking out and and your reason why: respect for the music. It has nothing to do with respect. The use of a music stand is not a respect issue.

 

Again, walk out as a matter of principle? I can buy that. But you are not walking out cuz the musician using the stand does not respect you or the music. Egregious foolhardy reasoning. You are using "respect for the music" as an excuse for your actions, where a lack of respect is not at play.

[jwlussow]

 

Let's make this perfectly clear: I AM NOT ADVOCATING FOR OR AGAINST THE USE OF MUSIC STANDS ON STAGE. As I said, I understand your point regarding their use and it is a valid one. What is not valid is your use of respect as your reason to not use one, but your reason to WALK OUT. What I am talking about is what you said about walking out and and your reason why: respect for the music. It has nothing to do with respect. The use of a music stand is not a respect issue. Again, walk out as a matter of principle? I can buy that. But you are not walking out cuz the musician using the stand does not respect you or the music. Egregious foolhardy reasoning. You are using "respect for the music" as an excuse for your actions, where a lack of respect is not at play.

 

 

Like I said, I have every right to be there or leave. In my vast experience, every rock band that had stands on stage for the singer has sucked. Maybe that is driving me out. I don't have to sit through that if I don't want to and, in my opinion, laziness or lack of self confidence are the only reasons to have a stand front and center. I've earned the right for my opinion and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone.

[KeysBear]

I don't think it's snobbery or puffery to discuss what looks good on stage and what does not. And whether items or actions-of-the-musicians that don't look good on stage detract from the performance and the audiences overall perception of that performance.

 

In previous posts including the OP I noted at least three references to unprofessional and one of amateur before I posted. I think most people here are somewhere in between, sort of sem-pros, not rank amateurs and not touring pros playing to sold out arenas. Sure for bad-ass rock it looks bad, I agree, but I wouldn't walk out on a band or put them down because of a music stand or two on the stage. I am more likely to dismiss them as posers or amateurs for playing to tracks when they have four or five musicians on stage.

[rog951]

Ah Jeeze. Not this {censored} again!

 

Anyway, I personally don't use a stand but I also don't have to sing too much. With my "early-onset Alzheimer's" I'm bound to forget a few chords or parts of solos during the course of a gig, but I just fake it. That said, I don't begrudge anyone who feels the need to use a stand. I'm pretty forgetful myself and I don't know how some of these singers can remember all the lyrics. Honestly, it seems like a pretty dumb thing to get worked-up about. If you get a vein bulging on your forhead over this, you've got issues.

[guitarguy19]

This is a rousing debate.

 

Anyone want to discuss salary, politics, abortion, or the death penalty next?

 

[KeysBear]

This is a rousing debate. Anyone want to discuss salary, politics, abortion, or the death penalty next?

 

You are right, I never discuss music stands in mixed company.

[kmart]

The guy's in multiple bands and you're blasting him for using cheat sheets? You don't play in multiple bands unless you're really good and really good to work with. Also, if he DIDN'T use cheat sheets could he be in 12 bands? I'm not following.....

 

 

Ok, I'll ignore the 'blasting him' comment and re-iterate that yes, I have an ISSUE with him using cheat sheets, again, because people who use them regularly are not poperly prepped for the gig, IMO. My issue with the usage in this particular case is because the guy is spread way too thin across all those bands to be properly prepared for any ONE of them.

 

Between my primary act, the side-project with this guy and plenty of subbing, I play in multiple bands and (aside from a couple occasions where songs were still brand new as indicated previously) I don't use cheat sheets in any location: I put in the work and learn the songs.

[kmart]

In previous posts including the OP I noted at least three references to unprofessional and one of amateur before I posted. I think most people here are somewhere in between, sort of sem-pros, not rank amateurs and not touring pros playing to sold out arenas.

 

 

Just because one's W2's indicate they aren't a a 'pro musician' income-wise, that's no excuse for LOOKING unprofessional on stage.

[TIMKEYS]

Ok, I'll ignore the 'blasting him' comment and re-iterate that yes, I have an ISSUE with him using cheat sheets, again, because people who use them regularly are not poperly prepped for the gig, IMO. My issue with the usage in this particular case is because the guy is spread way too thin across all those bands to be properly prepared for any ONE of them . Between my primary act, the side-project with this guy and plenty of subbing, I play in multiple bands and (aside from a couple occasions where songs were still brand new as indicated previously) I don't use cheat sheets in any location: I put in the work and learn the songs.

 

 

 

Its cool that you dont have any charts ,, but dont kid yourself into thinking pros dont use them. we played a gig with a couple other songwriters out of austin. they rolled in with a pro backing band that was killer. After the gig when we were cleaning up the stage ,, hmmm sheets with nashville notation. The backing band was pretty much all studio guns. Hell we used their drummer during our opening show. If you watch youtube videos , you will see guys in the backing bands reading off them. You will also see things on stage that look like monitors that are CRT tubes. The guys in this backing band have all toured on major tours with major recording artists. After that I never felt any guilt about having a chart to a song. I have a few things charted out on songs that have alot of chord changes that we dont do often enough to worry about memorizing because i would prolly forget them anyway. If its a special song for a wedding ,, I chart it , because we will prolly never play the thing again and if we do ,, it wont be till next wedding season. ya do what you need to do , to make it work. lots depends on how long the set list is. 60 songs no sweat ,,, 600 and it becomes more of a problem.